Greek Financial Crisis Thread

[DBJ]

Of course it gdp fell, but it had to fall. Greece wages were payed with loans they ultimately could never pay back. The scheme is unworkable in the long run. Continuing like that to keep GDP up for a few more months or years isn't the solution.

As I understand, less than 10% of the loans went to Greece, the rest went to paying back existing debt to creditors, many of which are private banks. In return Greece is expected to achieve a primary surplus rate unachieved by near any other country, and none on a sustained basis.

If the money goes directly to greece or to their creditors irrelevant, we're still paying their bills. Greece was only capable of lending from private banks because they assumed economically strong countries in the eurozone would guarantee the debt, so bond yields converged. Their were essentially lending on germany's credit card.

[Baltenstein]

Greek poll here:

http://www.toxwni.gr/xoni-apokleistika/ ... sta-to-oxi

No is 52% Yes is 29% and 19% I cant fucking decide.

With all due respect, but my trust in To Xoni's numbers is very low, due to their blatant political bias.

I'd rather have some independent and/or foreign polling institute give us its gallups.

[Minoa]

It appears that the way austerity was implemented in Greece by the previous government has pushed the country to a point where Austerity is simply not an option any more.

Judging by the posts, austerity may have turned around Estonia to some extent if I am interpreting Teemant's post correctly, but in the case of Greece we are in a completely different ball park with a much more complex situation, where the magnitude of debt is serious and public opinion towards austerity is decisively negative.

I do not know if it is possible to force Greece out of the euro, because Montenegro and Kosovo uses the currency unilaterally, and in addition there is nothing against a multi-currency regime and allowing the public to keep using euros, although wilfully denominating debt in an intentionally weak currency may rile creditors (rile, as in to annoy).

Sadly, while I respect Tsipras' sheer determination, the current state of the negotiations means that the Greek default is imminent.

[Novus America]

Well, income wasn't their problem. It was spending that was their problem. But getting the extra tax revenue wouldn't hurt.

It would have likely made the spending cuts less deep. But then again politicians in Greece have a tendency to not want to crack down on tax evasion, particularly when it helps their favored political constituencies. It's an issue which has festered for years. I've been told before that Greece has never collected (in its modern history) anywhere near the full taxes it imposes. I'll try to see if I can find a source for that.

But yeah, government spending and interest payments have been the real killer. Between 2001-2010 Greece accumulated something like €250 Billion in debt, about the size of the Danish economy, all the while above 100% Debt:GDP ratio. That of course carried with it immense socio-economic consequences.

I have created a simple theory I call the critical mass of corruption. Basically when a majority of those with political power are corrupt then having the government fix corruption is impossible. The corruption goes critical and spreads unchecked.
The corrupt will not crack down on corruption. When you reach that point you are really in trouble because the government cannot fix itself without some sort of revolution, a peaceful democratic one or a violent one, or outside intervention.

[Minoa]

It would have likely made the spending cuts less deep. But then again politicians in Greece have a tendency to not want to crack down on tax evasion, particularly when it helps their favored political constituencies. It's an issue which has festered for years. I've been told before that Greece has never collected (in its modern history) anywhere near the full taxes it imposes. I'll try to see if I can find a source for that.

But yeah, government spending and interest payments have been the real killer. Between 2001-2010 Greece accumulated something like €250 Billion in debt, about the size of the Danish economy, all the while above 100% Debt:GDP ratio. That of course carried with it immense socio-economic consequences.

I have created a simple theory I call the critical mass of corruption. Basically when a majority of those with political power are corrupt then having the government fix corruption is impossible. The corruption goes critical and spreads unchecked.
The corrupt will not crack down on corruption. When you reach that point you are really in trouble because the government cannot fix itself without some sort of revolution, a peaceful democratic one or a violent one, or outside intervention.

In my opinion, there has already been significant changes to Greek politics, with Tsipras sternly rejecting the Eurogroup's demands and the closure of ERT being reversed, but the fact he and Varoufakis has been to the negotiating table means he's knows that violence would only make things a lot worse.

[Novus America]

It appears that the way austerity was implemented in Greece by the previous government has pushed the country to a point where Austerity is simply not an option any more.

Judging by the posts, austerity may have turned around Estonia to some extent if I am interpreting Teemant's post correctly, but in the case of Greece we are in a completely different ball park with a much more complex situation, where the magnitude of debt is serious and public opinion towards austerity is decisively negative.

I do not know if it is possible to force Greece out of the euro, because Montenegro and Kosovo uses the currency unilaterally, and in addition there is nothing against a multi-currency regime and allowing the public to keep using euros, although wilfully denominating debt in an intentionally weak currency may rile creditors (rile, as in to annoy).

Sadly, while I respect Tsipras' sheer determination, the current state of the negotiations means that the Greek default is imminent.

Tsipras is playing chicken with a train. Regardless whether he is morally right or wrong disaster is inevitable if he does not back down.

[Novus America]

I have created a simple theory I call the critical mass of corruption. Basically when a majority of those with political power are corrupt then having the government fix corruption is impossible. The corruption goes critical and spreads unchecked.
The corrupt will not crack down on corruption. When you reach that point you are really in trouble because the government cannot fix itself without some sort of revolution, a peaceful democratic one or a violent one, or outside intervention.

In my opinion, there has already been significant changes to Greek politics, with Tsipras sternly rejecting the Eurogroup's demands and the closure of ERT being reversed, but the fact he and Varoufakis has been to the negotiating table means he's knows that violence would only make things a lot worse.

But even if he is not corrupt himself he his unable or unwilling to actually stop the corruption. The problem is so many people think they are benefiting from corruption that actually stopping corruption is not politically viable.

Greece seems to have already hit critical mass.

[Baltenstein]

Rumors in Greece are saying that yesterday, Tsipras underwent immediate medical treatment for suffering a panic attack.

I don't know if that is a good sign (Actually, I know that it is a very bad sign). I hope he recovered well.

[Risottia]

Retirement should be at 60, WHY?

Because that's a massive social progress that we once had

No, you didn't HAVE it. You BORROWED it from the future generations and from creditors, both domestic and international, and turns out Greece has no will to repay that - it merely insists that countries like Italy should carry the Greek debt by enacting measures such has having Italians retire at 67 - and with minimum pensions below 500 €/month - so that Greeks can retire at 60 with more than twice as much of the pension.
That's quite odious, to use a term you seem to love.

Considering the Italian levels of bribery, corruption and tax evasion in Greece? Not with my money.

But who is asking for "your money" ? The whole "greek debt crisis" (but it also applies to Italian, Spanish, French, ... debts) is to transfer money from national taxpayers to transnational finance. The only thing we are asking is to stop plundering and looting them, nothing more.

"Transnational finance" aka the ECB, the IMF which are funded by taxpayers. So you're asking to plunder and loot, ultimately, ME.

When so many live below the poverty line, you need to increase the PURCHASING POWER of the poor, and the purchasing base.

The only real long-term way to do that is increasing wages.

When you have those unemployment figures? Ha!

You can do it by lowering the consumer prices - such as power bills

That's one of emergency measures Syriza took, and that the Troika hates.

The "Trojka" hates it, or hates the fact that Syriza did not set up a way to cover those expenses, thus increasing the debt again?

and by increasing welfare (not wages)

Again, proposed by Syriza, opposed the Troika.

Same as above.

which requires a more evenly spread taxation, and more tax on the richer ends - such as real estate owners - and business such as shipping: something Greece has been quite loathe to do so far.

Same as above.

Excuse me, where exactly the Trojka has stated they oppose taxation on shipping and on real estate?

If you merely inject more money into a flawed system, consumer prices will rise and you'll have all that money end up in the hands of the usual suspects (banks, bureaucracy bosses, tax evaders, big business) without producing a permanent benefit for the workers.

Who speaks about "merely injecting more money" ? That's not the issue. The issue is increasing wages

Increasing wages without an increase in productivity is pretty much the definition of "merely injecting more money".

because the boulder is removed

The boulder that has to be removed first is the shitty management, the widespread corruption, and unsustainable benefits and privileges. There's no way Greece can stop the deficit and start fueling growth without that.

[CTALNH]

Greek poll here:

http://www.toxwni.gr/xoni-apokleistika/ ... sta-to-oxi

No is 52% Yes is 29% and 19% I cant fucking decide.

With all due respect, but my trust in To Xoni's numbers is very low, due to their blatant political bias.

I'd rather have some independent and/or foreign polling institute give us its gallups.

I suppose but they did fucking predict the elections polls better than the rest of the independent polls.

[Lyannesia]

Rumors in Greece are saying that yesterday, Tsipras underwent immediate medical treatment for suffering a panic attack.

I don't know if that is a good sign (Actually, I know that it is a very bad sign). I hope he recovered well.

Where did you hear that?

I live in Greece and have heard nothing like that.

[Kilobugya]

Quite rationally, the Eurozone leaders pointed out that this crisis in Greece is self-inflicted.

That's wrong. The Greece crisis is the mostly the product of Troika austerity plans, which turned a small problem (debt at 120%, not worse than Japan or USA) into a massive disaster and economical collapse, and the product of punitive interest rates. And also the consequence of transferring private debt into public debt, which is indeed a decision of the Greek government, but not of the Greek people, and not legal under international law. The only ones who should pay for consequences are the Greek government of that time, not the Greek people.

After years of rampant overspending and cheap debt, Greece found itself in near bankruptcy.

That's not at all how it happened. There hasn't be "years of rampant overspending", in fact Greece government spending was below the average of eurozone. And there was no "cheap debt", the interest rates asked by private markets to Greece way already very high.

In exchange for a debt writeoff they had to agree to certain conditions.

Wrong. It's not a "debt writeoff". It's a loan _with interests_ in order to pay back a previous loan. In an infernal loop with no end, everytime Greece must repay part of its debt, they get a new loan with interest and conditions to pay back that chunk, without any long-term solution in sight, each austerity plan shrinking their economy and increasing the problem - thanks to the Troika, the debt went from 120% to 170% of Greece GDP.

Austerity is not some sort of malicious design by Eurozone sadists

No, it's a very selfish way for Germany, France, ... to make the Greek workers work for them, taking billions of interest from the asphyxiating Greek people. In the last 4 years, while Greek people have thrown into an humanitarian crisis, Greece paid 800 millions of interests to France. And even more to Germany, IMF, ECB, ... It's an organized plunder, nothing more, nothing less.

Tsipras wanted a renegotiation, and the Eurozone leaders offered him one.

No, they didn't. They stubbornly continued their injuction, the exact same one the Greek voters rejected, because the Troika has a complete disregard to either democracy or people's well-being.

He had months to negotiate a new set of terms.

And he tried to, even accepting concessions he shouldn't have accepted. But the other end didn't want to negotiate, only to impose its will to Greece as if it were a colony.

Yet, he found himself up against the wall. Instead of cutting his losses and admitting a defeat, he tried punting to voters to deflect blame.

He has no mandate to accept a "defeat". That's not what he was elected for. That's basic honesty and respect for electors to not betray what you were elected for. Something eurozone leaders, to which democracy is an alien idea, have trouble grasping. But a government elected to do one policy, and then doing the opposite one, is a betrayal. Tsipras refused to betray. So he asked the Greek people what they want. That's a fully admirable position, the only one compatible with both democracy and ethics. I wish Hollande had the decency to do a referendum before doing the opposite of what he was elected to do...

There is nothing to vote for this Sunday. The offered renegotiation package is off the table.

Wrong. If the "yes" wins, which I hope it won't, the Troika will definitely accept the deal - they would have won, it would be completely silly for them to refuse it.

All that is left is to decide whether to stay in the Eurozone or leave.

There is no legal way to push Greece out of the eurozone. Even if the No wins, Greece will stay in the eurozone. Attempts to kick it out are totally illegal.

You cast a sovereign default in such an easy light.

Because it is something relatively easy, that countries do again and again.

If you think the Greek economy couldn't get any worse then there is a whole new round of pain to come if Greece defaults.

A sudden, complete default will be very painful. Not only to Greece, but also to the rest of the eurozone, which is why a sane compromise, a controlled default, should be reached. But for Greece, even the default will be painful, it'll, on the long term, be much less painful than an eternal cycle of austerity and debt repayment. There is just no long-term solution offered by the Troika, only eternal slavery, talking new loans to pay back previous ones, each time sinking even deeper into austerity, and meanwhile paying billions and billions of interest, with the debt never shrinking.

At this point, Greece is certain to default to the IMF.

Being a few days late in a minor payment isn't really a "default".

[Teemant]

Quite rationally, the Eurozone leaders pointed out that this crisis in Greece is self-inflicted.

That's wrong. The Greece crisis is the mostly the product of Troika austerity plans, which turned a small problem (debt at 120%, not worse than Japan or USA) into a massive disaster and economical collapse, and the product of punitive interest rates. And also the consequence of transferring private debt into public debt, which is indeed a decision of the Greek government, but not of the Greek people, and not legal under international law. The only ones who should pay for consequences are the Greek government of that time, not the Greek people.

After years of rampant overspending and cheap debt, Greece found itself in near bankruptcy.

That's not at all how it happened. There hasn't be "years of rampant overspending", in fact Greece government spending was below the average of eurozone. And there was no "cheap debt", the interest rates asked by private markets to Greece way already very high.

In exchange for a debt writeoff they had to agree to certain conditions.

Wrong. It's not a "debt writeoff". It's a loan _with interests_ in order to pay back a previous loan. In an infernal loop with no end, everytime Greece must repay part of its debt, they get a new loan with interest and conditions to pay back that chunk, without any long-term solution in sight, each austerity plan shrinking their economy and increasing the problem - thanks to the Troika, the debt went from 120% to 170% of Greece GDP.

Austerity is not some sort of malicious design by Eurozone sadists

No, it's a very selfish way for Germany, France, ... to make the Greek workers work for them, taking billions of interest from the asphyxiating Greek people. In the last 4 years, while Greek people have thrown into an humanitarian crisis, Greece paid 800 millions of interests to France. And even more to Germany, IMF, ECB, ... It's an organized plunder, nothing more, nothing less.

Tsipras wanted a renegotiation, and the Eurozone leaders offered him one.

No, they didn't. They stubbornly continued their injuction, the exact same one the Greek voters rejected, because the Troika has a complete disregard to either democracy or people's well-being.

He had months to negotiate a new set of terms.

And he tried to, even accepting concessions he shouldn't have accepted. But the other end didn't want to negotiate, only to impose its will to Greece as if it were a colony.

Yet, he found himself up against the wall. Instead of cutting his losses and admitting a defeat, he tried punting to voters to deflect blame.

He has no mandate to accept a "defeat". That's not what he was elected for. That's basic honesty and respect for electors to not betray what you were elected for. Something eurozone leaders, to which democracy is an alien idea, have trouble grasping. But a government elected to do one policy, and then doing the opposite one, is a betrayal. Tsipras refused to betray. So he asked the Greek people what they want. That's a fully admirable position, the only one compatible with both democracy and ethics. I wish Hollande had the decency to do a referendum before doing the opposite of what he was elected to do...

There is nothing to vote for this Sunday. The offered renegotiation package is off the table.

Wrong. If the "yes" wins, which I hope it won't, the Troika will definitely accept the deal - they would have won, it would be completely silly for them to refuse it.

All that is left is to decide whether to stay in the Eurozone or leave.

There is no legal way to push Greece out of the eurozone. Even if the No wins, Greece will stay in the eurozone. Attempts to kick it out are totally illegal.

You cast a sovereign default in such an easy light.

Because it is something relatively easy, that countries do again and again.

If you think the Greek economy couldn't get any worse then there is a whole new round of pain to come if Greece defaults.

A sudden, complete default will be very painful. Not only to Greece, but also to the rest of the eurozone, which is why a sane compromise, a controlled default, should be reached. But for Greece, even the default will be painful, it'll, on the long term, be much less painful than an eternal cycle of austerity and debt repayment. There is just no long-term solution offered by the Troika, only eternal slavery, talking new loans to pay back previous ones, each time sinking even deeper into austerity, and meanwhile paying billions and billions of interest, with the debt never shrinking.

At this point, Greece is certain to default to the IMF.

Being a few days late in a minor payment isn't really a "default".

You're just in denial. Greece had been running huge deficits 40 years in a row (up to 15% per year) and you say there wasn't overspending. Before the crash happened Greece had 6% budget deficit which is extreme.

[Kilobugya]

Estonia as of now has fully recovered and everything seems to be back on track. Austerity totally worked in Estonia. People weren't very happy when reforms were made (although no large protest were held) but goverment made them anyways (because it was right thing to do). Estonia could have borrowed money from markets too (we have debt around 10% of GDP) but it din't happen.

Estonia barely recovered : http://www.tradingeconomics.com/estonia/gdp GDP went from 23.78 to 24.48 over 5 years, that's a ... 0.5% average growth rate, hardly a success. And inflation corrected, Estonia GDP in 2015 _still_ didn't recover to the level before austerity, wonderful success.

And it wasn't even full blown austerity, it was antisocial measures, but the Estonian debt massively increased (although it was very small to start with) during that period : http://countryeconomy.com/national-debt/estonia

[Kilobugya]

If the money goes directly to greece or to their creditors irrelevant, we're still paying their bills.

No, it's not. "We" are not paying any Greek bills. "We" are just lending them, with interest, money that automatically returns to "our" own pockets. Greece doesn't see the color of the money, we don't lose any, we just collect interests and impose austerity plans. And if "we" got the Greek loans at first is not out of kindness of heart, but only to save "our" own private banks, once again converting a private debt into a public one.

Greece was only capable of lending from private banks

Greece only _had_ to borrow from private banks (at interest) _because_ of eurozone policy forbidding the central bank to lend directly to the state, at low/no interest - like the US does, or like European countries did before euro.

[Teemant]

Estonia as of now has fully recovered and everything seems to be back on track. Austerity totally worked in Estonia. People weren't very happy when reforms were made (although no large protest were held) but goverment made them anyways (because it was right thing to do). Estonia could have borrowed money from markets too (we have debt around 10% of GDP) but it din't happen.

Estonia barely recovered : http://www.tradingeconomics.com/estonia/gdp GDP went from 23.78 to 24.48 over 5 years, that's a ... 0.5% average growth rate, hardly a success. And inflation corrected, Estonia GDP in 2015 _still_ didn't recover to the level before austerity, wonderful success.

And it wasn't even full blown austerity, it was antisocial measures, but the Estonian debt massively increased (although it was very small to start with) during that period : http://countryeconomy.com/national-debt/estonia

How is this not recovery if we have bigger GDP now than before crash? Estonian average wages haven gone for the first time over 1000 euro (bruto) and unemployment is not a big problem anymore. Inflation corrected? Europe has had deflation problems for a while now. And statistic on this link ends 2014/1/1 which is 1,5 years ago.

Debt as % of GDP is 10% as I said.

[Kilobugya]

Tsipras is playing chicken with a train. Regardless whether he is morally right or wrong disaster is inevitable if he does not back down.

Disaster is inevitable for both sides if Greece does a "blunt" default. So why should be Tsipras, who is "morally right", the one to back down, and not the eurozone ?

[Teemant]

Tsipras is playing chicken with a train. Regardless whether he is morally right or wrong disaster is inevitable if he does not back down.

Disaster is inevitable for both sides if Greece does a "blunt" default. So why should be Tsipras, who is "morally right", the one to back down, and not the eurozone ?

Morally right? How is Tsipras morally right?

[Novus America]

Tsipras is playing chicken with a train. Regardless whether he is morally right or wrong disaster is inevitable if he does not back down.

Disaster is inevitable for both sides if Greece does a "blunt" default. So why should be Tsipras, who is "morally right", the one to back down, and not the eurozone ?

Again chicken with a train. The train cannot swerve. The Eurozone is too divided to make any change of policy. When you are playing chicken with a train you have to serve because the train cannot. And the train will survive maybe with some damage. You will not.

I never said he was morally right, I do not believe he is, I simply said it was irrelevant.

Sometimes you have to back down even if you are right.

Tsipras must realize he cannot possibly win. What does he hope to accomplish at this point? The EU is not going to change, and he is unwilling to do what Greece needs to stay in, but also not willing to call for an exit.

He cannot do what is needed to stay in, nor what is needed to leave. He is just making things worse. If he wants to stay in he will have to back down. If he wants to leave he has to leave. Now he is in the worst place, in between with no plan.

He needs to make up his mind.

[Kilobugya]

Because that's a massive social progress that we once had

No, you didn't HAVE it. You BORROWED it from the future generations and from creditors, both domestic and international

Wrong. First because retirement systems are not financed through debt, and second because debt is not borrowing from future generations at all. What's harming future generations is lack of investment. It's not upkeeping/building infrastructures. It's not protecting the environment. It's not educating them. It's not providing them healthcare. It's not investing in R&D. Debt doesn't matter. Historically it never did, it never was paid, and it never was a problem. What matters for next generations is how we invest now, and the social progress we let them, not the debt.

and turns out Greece has no will to repay that

Greece debt is not due to retirement system. It's due to 1. transfert of private debt of Greek banks into public debt 2. punitive interest rates 3. austerity.

it merely insists that countries like Italy should carry the Greek debt by enacting measures such has having Italians retire at 67 - and with minimum pensions below 500 €/month - so that Greeks can retire at 60 with more than twice as much of the pension.

Not at all. The Italian should do the same as the Greek - refuse austerity, and refuse to pay debts. That you accept social regression is no justification for Greece to accept social rejections. And there is no money given by Italy to Greece - Greece is paying interests to the rest of the eurozone, not the opposite.

That's quite odious, to use a term you seem to love.

The situation imposed to Italian is odious, yes. But it's not the Greek people the culprit. But the same ones that are culprits of the Greek debt : the financial markets, the Troika, the German-controlled Europe. The 1%. Italy and Greece (and France, and ...) should resist against the financial elite plundering our countries. Not point to the even more miserable ones and say it's their fault.

"Transnational finance" aka the ECB, the IMF which are funded by taxpayers. So you're asking to plunder and loot, ultimately, ME.

That's now - because the private debt onwed by German, French, ... banks was transferred to ECB/IMF. Not to help Greece, but to help "our" banks. Who pocketed the money happily. That's why we should erase both the Greek debt and our own.

That's one of emergency measures Syriza took, and that the Troika hates.

The "Trojka" hates it, or hates the fact that Syriza did not set up a way to cover those expenses, thus increasing the debt again?

It did - by increasing taxes on the rich, which the Troika refused.

and by increasing welfare (not wages)

Again, proposed by Syriza, opposed the Troika.

Same as above.

Excuse me, where exactly the Trojka has stated they oppose taxation on shipping and on real estate?

The last round of disagreement between the Troika and the Syriza government, the one that made Syriza call for a referendum, was not on the financial target of 1%, Syriza accepted it (they shouldn't have, but they did). It was on _how_ the money would be collected. Syriza wanted to tax the rich, the Troika wanted Syriza to increase VAT and cut pensions.

Increasing wages without an increase in productivity is pretty much the definition of "merely injecting more money".

You should read Marx' "wages, price and profit". Increasing wages, even without an increase in productivity, means decreasing profits, and vice-versa. That's one of the many reasons for which the "crisis" and associated austerity, while it massively lowered people's living conditions, allowed the rich to become even richer.

The boulder that has to be removed first is the shitty management, the widespread corruption, and unsustainable benefits and privileges. There's no way Greece can stop the deficit and start fueling growth without that.

[/quote]

Shitty management and corruption can't be removed when people are starving in the street. When you're struggling for survival, you don't follow the rule of law. And there are no "unsustainable benefits and privileges" (apart from those of the 1%) but a massive humanitarian crisis and millions of people living in poverty.

[Kilobugya]

You're just in denial. Greece had been running huge deficits 40 years in a row (up to 15% per year) and you say there wasn't overspending. Before the crash happened Greece had 6% budget deficit which is extreme.

You know an audit of the Greek debt was made, right ? As the EU laws mandate, but as no other country dared to do, and no government dared to do in Greece except Syriza's one ? Here is the result : http://cadtm.org/Executive-Summary-of-the-report . Quote : « Chapter 1, Debt before the Troika, analyses the growth of the Greek public debt since the 1980s. It concludes that the increase in debt was not due to excessive public spending, which in fact remained lower than the public spending of other Eurozone countries, but rather due to the payment of extremely high rates of interest to creditors, excessive and unjustified military spending, loss of tax revenues due to illicit capital outflows, state recapitalization of private banks, and the international imbalances created via the flaws in the design of the Monetary Union itself. »

[Baltenstein]

Rumors in Greece are saying that yesterday, Tsipras underwent immediate medical treatment for suffering a panic attack.

I don't know if that is a good sign (Actually, I know that it is a very bad sign). I hope he recovered well.

Where did you hear that?

I live in Greece and have heard nothing like that.

Protagon.gr.

I know they're blatantly anti-Syriza, but still.

[Greed and Death]

You're just in denial. Greece had been running huge deficits 40 years in a row (up to 15% per year) and you say there wasn't overspending. Before the crash happened Greece had 6% budget deficit which is extreme.

You know an audit of the Greek debt was made, right ? As the EU laws mandate, but as no other country dared to do, and no government dared to do in Greece except Syriza's one ? Here is the result : http://cadtm.org/Executive-Summary-of-the-report . Quote : « Chapter 1, Debt before the Troika, analyses the growth of the Greek public debt since the 1980s. It concludes that the increase in debt was not due to excessive public spending, which in fact remained lower than the public spending of other Eurozone countries, but rather due to the payment of extremely high rates of interest to creditors, excessive and unjustified military spending, loss of tax revenues due to illicit capital outflows, state recapitalization of private banks, and the international imbalances created via the flaws in the design of the Monetary Union itself. »

Well then you should not have spent the money on the military.

[Kilobugya]

Well then you should not have spent the money on the military.

I definitely agree with that. But you know who they buy their weapons from, right ? France and Germany. Oddly, cutting military spending has never been among the demands of the Troika. Yet another proof, if more were required, that the Troika's purpose never was helping Greece, but helping themselves.

[Greed and Death]

Well then you should not have spent the money on the military.

I definitely agree with that. But you know who they buy their weapons from, right ? France and Germany. Oddly, cutting military spending has never been among the demands of the Troika. Yet another proof, if more were required, that the Troika's purpose never was helping Greece, but helping themselves.

So we agree it is Greece's fault. Good on German and French companies to profit from it though.

Now with Russia growing crazy we can not afford to have a disarmed Greece, better a military American puppet than a disarmed Greece.