Greek Financial Crisis Thread

[Novus America]

I am sure some Americans gave advice, but we never forced anything on you with the EU.

Whatever.

You yourself said Ukraine showed how weak the EU is.
You wrote
"Now, it's also obvious that the E.U as a whole is completly dependant on the U.S in military term (just see with the Ukrainia Crisis) but that could be also said of most European country."

Yeah, I said that the E.U which lack of an official army is therefore dependant completly on American's help. I never said, however, that the differents nations which compose the E.U are THEM dependant on American's help.

See especially for France, you only have a small number of all strategic weapons. You can only hurt Russia while dying. They only provide some deference against a Russian nuclear strike on France. You can only use them as a last resort. Not in a conventional war.

In 1980 we had the possibility to obliterate, in the worst case scenario, at least 35% of Russian Population and 45% of it's industrial potential. Nowaday, this estimation is now way under the damages we could do because, despite not creating new bombs any more and having a lower stock than Russia (yet the third largest stockpile), we have up to date nuclear bombs when the Russian only have the one which remain from the Cold War era.
Also, you seem to don't understand that they ain't "conventionnal war" anymore. Any real war, like an invasion of Poland or of a country member of the E.U would result in an intervention of one the European Great Power and thus in the death of most of the population of the continent.

And yes the EU is crying for help. And it is getting annoying.

Well, since you're getting your influence on the said nation only because of your capacity of protecting, it's not so much "crying for help" than asking you to do an intelligent move for once.

How is that? Why are we protecting the EU against a much smaller and weaker threat?

And if conventional war no longer happens (tell that to Ukraine) why are your almighty French nuclear weapons not doing all the protecting? Why is the U.S. needed when almighty France can do all the protecting? You are making no sense.

If conventional war never happens then why do you still have any conventional weapons? And why is Europe afraid of Russia and asking for the U.S. to save them from Russia?

And really? Do you actually believe France would nuke Russia to protect the Baltics?
You know that is bullshit, I know that is bullshit, and Russia knows that is bullshit. Hence Russia is not in the least bit deterred.

[Martean]

Austerity doesn't work. It hasn't, and it will not. After 5 years of draconian measures, Greece's GDP has fallen a significant 27%, unemployment is at 27% and there is a huge humanitarian crisis. Besides, as Krugman says, austerity doesn't solve the debt issue, so it is absolutely worthless.

Debts are actually not the pressing issue, aside from payments to the Troika for the programs. A good deal of the debt in question has no interest on it, either by current design or because it's not going to be charged as long as Greece isn't improving. The debts are also not due anytime soon.

Debts aren't right no a pressing issue, but I just used them as an example that austerity doesn't even work to reduce the national debt, much less for everything else.

Greece has a government willing to make some concesions, but whose objective in the long run is to end austerity measures, and we also have the US government that, surprisingly, has more or less alligned with the Greek side (aka ebul communizts), and has forced the IMF to admit that reestructuring the Greek debt may not be as crazy as they claimed it to be.

Concessions? The largest issues that keep the Greek budget inflated beyond reason remained virtually untouched while new spending was added. And even then the Greeks walked out of every agreement that had supposedly been reached.

This is not true, the EU and Greece had been negotiating for weeks, finnally, Greece sent a proposal that made HUGE concessions, indeed, here the right-wing media said Tsipras had ''surrended'' and that ''there is no other way, only austerity''. Well, the EU decided that was not enough and sent another proposal, (remember, the EU, not Greece) and Syriza felt that it was not given the mandate to apply the measures which were sent to them, and so they held the referendum, and Greeks decided enough is enough.

However, there is the EU, whose biggest ambition right now seems to be assuring that Podemos doesn't win this November's Spanish General election, or that M5S and FN don't win either. And for that objective, it is willing to let Greece fail. This is nothing more than a message for Europeans: there is no alternative.

But there is, and sooner or later more countries will fall on the Greek side. I just hope Syriza still rules Greece by then, which I doubt.

Aid for reform. That's been the mantra and the current Greek government threw all solidarity out the window and is making demands because apparently their country is far more special than any other.

WTF? When German's debt was pardoned, even after they had ''threw all solidarity out the window'' causing a world war which killed millions, did the rest of Europe seek vengeance? No. We decided it was the best thing to do economically, and it turned out to end well.

Besides, Greece is not making demands because ''they are more special''. They are making demands because people like you asked them to cut down their spending, promising them this would end the crisis. And when they did, it turned out it had only served for the GDP to shrink and for debts to get even more unpayable. Right now Greece has a HUMANITARIAN crisis, and the rest of Europe doesn't care. With friends like this, there is no need for enemies.

The worst thing about the Greek crisis is to see the typical German, or Spanish (so you don't get offended), which is an economic illiterate, talk about these issues and hear them say things that have no sense. Half of Europe thinks they have the solution for Greece and this is why EU governments are so short-minded.

[Aelex]

How is that? Why are we protecting the EU against a much smaller and weaker threat?

Mostly because of the desire to keep your influence in the region. They ain't real need of you since Russia won't dare to cross Poland's border but I guess you might be useful to protect the other Eastern Country.

And if conventional war no longer happens (tell that to Ukraine) why are your almighty French nuclear weapons not doing all the protecting? Why is the U.S. needed when almighty France can do all the protecting? You are making no sense.

It's more your bad strawmen which don't make sense. As I sayed, conventional war don't happen as soon as nuclear powers are involved which mean that any attack on an ally of a nuclear power would result on an escalation as quick that it would be murderous. France however, don't see the need of playing the world police for any little crisis and since you're already hated by everyone, love to fuck shit up and are always ready to go where no one want you, there are no need for us to compromise ourselves when you're eager to do it for free.

If conventional war never happens then why do you still have any conventional weapons?

Prestige. Intervention in the old colony, etc, etc. You can't hope that a country which based it's very existence and prestige on it's ability in war to just stop having weapons.

And why is Europe afraid of Russia and asking for the U.S. to save them from Russia?

Western Europe isn't afraid. Poland is middly frightened. The Baltics may be wetting their pants lightly but they are still pretty confidents. Most of European contry are asking for American help not because they view themselves as too weak to do anything but because they are desirous to not fuck too much their economic possibility with Russia and prefer thus to let the U.S.A do all the dirty work.

And really? Do you actually believe France would nuke Russia to protect the Baltics?

Don't joke on the possibility of escalation of a war. If a real conflict broke out, no one know how it'll end up.

You know that is bullshit, I know that is bullshit, and Russia knows that is bullshit. Hence Russia is not in the least bit deterred.

It's not bullshit, it's fact. You yourself know that because you wouldn't have bothered yourself to wrote all this strawmen if I was saying things which were easily provable to be false. Anyway, even detterence has it's limit as history prove it (Afganistan, Vietnam) and that's why most of us try to avoid a real war and keep to "military intervention" as long as it's possible. The thing is that Ukrainia isn't valuable enough to intervene military to save it and this is the exact reason of why the Russian dared to invade it when they stay away from Poland.

[The Alma Mater]

The worst thing about the Greek crisis is to see the typical German, or Spanish (so you don't get offended), which is an economic illiterate, talk about these issues and hear them say things that have no sense. Half of Europe thinks they have the solution for Greece and this is why EU governments are so short-minded.

Again: that is a PR issue.

Let us make a silly story that can function as an analogy.In the eyes of many, Greece is acting like a spoiled wife. One who married a reasonably well-of husband and then asked to borrow his creditcard to buy that awesome swimsuit. To which the husband replied "sure, but buy a nice suit to wear to job interviews as well - so you can apply and become self-sufficient". Wife agrees, but of course does not actually buy the suit nor goes to any job interviews - instead preferring beach parties. This repeats a few times. Husband then becomes slightly less well to do. Has to take out another mortgage, exchange his car for a smaller one, and perhaps even touch that college fund set aside for their promising kids.
So asks his wife again to help and actually find a job, to sell some of those swimsuits she bought or at least start buying the groceries in a less expensive store. The wife responds by asking all her friends if she looks better in a swimsuit or pants; and then uses the result of that referendum to tell the husband "no to all". And then whines he is being unreasonable and demanding.

That is a *mild* version of how people view Greeks. Less mild people just see a bunch of ungrateful beggars.

[Laerod]

Debts are actually not the pressing issue, aside from payments to the Troika for the programs. A good deal of the debt in question has no interest on it, either by current design or because it's not going to be charged as long as Greece isn't improving. The debts are also not due anytime soon.

Debts aren't right no a pressing issue, but I just used them as an example that austerity doesn't even work to reduce the national debt, much less for everything else.

Austerity wasn't intended to reduce debt, it was intended to reduce the ingrained mismanagement that caused it and perpetuated it. The question is seriously not whether Greece needs to reduce its spending. The question is how much, how long, and where that reduction is going to happen.

Concessions? The largest issues that keep the Greek budget inflated beyond reason remained virtually untouched while new spending was added. And even then the Greeks walked out of every agreement that had supposedly been reached.

This is not true, the EU and Greece had been negotiating for weeks, finnally, Greece sent a proposal that made HUGE concessions, indeed, here the right-wing media said Tsipras had ''surrended'' and that ''there is no other way, only austerity''. Well, the EU decided that was not enough and sent another proposal, (remember, the EU, not Greece) and Syriza felt that it was not given the mandate to apply the measures which were sent to them, and so they held the referendum, and Greeks decided enough is enough.

And centrist media here suggested Tsipras won big and the EU had all but caved in. And no, not the EU, Greece walked out and then held a referendum after it was too late. And it is too late: By grace of failing to meet its obligations to the IMF, Greece is no longer eligible for any aid from the IMF. The Troika is effectively gone and after the 20th, the ECB will no longer legally be able to give aid if Greece fails that payment as well, leaving only the EU to cover it. And mind you, that will be a really tough sell to the other democracies that would then be footing the bill pretty much alone.

Aid for reform. That's been the mantra and the current Greek government threw all solidarity out the window and is making demands because apparently their country is far more special than any other.

WTF? When German's debt was pardoned, even after they had ''threw all solidarity out the window'' causing a world war which killed millions, did the rest of Europe seek vengeance? No. We decided it was the best thing to do economically, and it turned out to end well.

German reparations under Versailles were halved, not completely pardoned, and then primarily because the new democratic government, as a sign of good will, wished to pay for those obligations that had previously been declared null and void. Germany laid out a plausible plan for paying back those debts which were the result of actions from a completely different and undemocratic system. Greece, particularly under Tsipras, has utterly failed to present a plausible means of fixing mistakes made by its democratically elected officials. And yet Greece also received a 50% haircut on its bonds along with interest rates to almost the same conditions Germany had on the Versailles war debt.

Besides, Greece is not making demands because ''they are more special''. They are making demands because people like you asked them to cut down their spending, promising them this would end the crisis. And when they did, it turned out it had only served for the GDP to shrink and for debts to get even more unpayable. Right now Greece has a HUMANITARIAN crisis, and the rest of Europe doesn't care. With friends like this, there is no need for enemies.

"People like me" understood that people like Schäuble had a point that throwing money at Greece without getting Greece to fix the institutionalized errors of its system was unsustainable. "People like me" were optimistic and hoped that Greece would put in effort rather than blame others for the mess their country has put itself in. "People like me" are embarassed that fucktards like Gauweiler have had their xenophobic prejudices proven correct.

And you know what? Despite all of this shit any of us are getting from Greeks and the far left, I still hope that some deal can be reached and I still support sending humanitarian aid the way our politicians are planning to do now once Greece has completely fucked itself.

The worst thing about the Greek crisis is to see the typical German, or Spanish (so you don't get offended), which is an economic illiterate, talk about these issues and hear them say things that have no sense. Half of Europe thinks they have the solution for Greece and this is why EU governments are so short-minded.

Indeed, which is why making negotiations dependent on referendums was a grade-A bullet to the foot for the Greeks, because now all it will take is for one of the "uncaring" "terrorist" "Nazi" countries to vote no to torpedo any last minute deal that might still be reached.

[Laerod]

The worst thing about the Greek crisis is to see the typical German, or Spanish (so you don't get offended), which is an economic illiterate, talk about these issues and hear them say things that have no sense. Half of Europe thinks they have the solution for Greece and this is why EU governments are so short-minded.

Again: that is a PR issue.

Let us make a silly story that can function as an analogy.In the eyes of many, Greece is acting like a spoiled wife. One who married a reasonably well-of husband and then asked to borrow his creditcard to buy that awesome swimsuit. To which the husband replied "sure, but buy a nice suit to wear to job interviews as well - so you can apply and become self-sufficient". Wife agrees, but of course does not actually buy the suit nor goes to any job interviews - instead preferring beach parties. This repeats a few times. Husband then becomes slightly less well to do. Has to take out another mortgage, exchange his car for a smaller one, and perhaps even touch that college fund set aside for their promising kids.
So asks his wife again to help and actually find a job, to sell some of those swimsuits she bought or at least start buying the groceries in a less expensive store. The wife responds by asking all her friends if she looks better in a swimsuit or pants; and then uses the result of that referendum to tell the husband "no to all". And then whines he is being unreasonable and demanding.

That is a *mild* version of how people view Greeks. Less mild people just see a bunch of ungrateful beggars.

Actually, try this one: Imagine the whole thing from the perspective of an African country. The amount of effort going into saving Greece compared to what any of them have gone through to get funding from the IMF and then the Greeks reject the deal on the table. White fucking privilege on an international level.

[Novus America]

How is that? Why are we protecting the EU against a much smaller and weaker threat?

Mostly because of the desire to keep your influence in the region. They ain't real need of you since Russia won't dare to cross Poland's border but I guess you might be useful to protect the other Eastern Country.

And if conventional war no longer happens (tell that to Ukraine) why are your almighty French nuclear weapons not doing all the protecting? Why is the U.S. needed when almighty France can do all the protecting? You are making no sense.

It's more your bad strawmen which don't make sense. As I sayed, conventional war don't happen as soon as nuclear powers are involved which mean that any attack on an ally of a nuclear power would result on an escalation as quick that it would be murderous. France however, don't see the need of playing the world police for any little crisis and since you're already hated by everyone, love to fuck shit up and are always ready to go where no one want you, there are no need for us to compromise ourselves when you're eager to do it for free.

If conventional war never happens then why do you still have any conventional weapons?

Prestige. Intervention in the old colony, etc, etc. You can't hope that a country which based it's very existence and prestige on it's ability in war to just stop having weapons.

And why is Europe afraid of Russia and asking for the U.S. to save them from Russia?

Western Europe isn't afraid. Poland is middly frightened. The Baltics may be wetting their pants lightly but they are still pretty confidents. Most of European contry are asking for American help not because they view themselves as too weak to do anything but because they are desirous to not fuck too much their economic possibility with Russia and prefer thus to let the U.S.A do all the dirty work.

And really? Do you actually believe France would nuke Russia to protect the Baltics?

Don't joke on the possibility of escalation of a war. If a real conflict broke out, no one know how it'll end up.

You know that is bullshit, I know that is bullshit, and Russia knows that is bullshit. Hence Russia is not in the least bit deterred.

It's not bullshit, it's fact. You yourself know that because you wouldn't have bothered yourself to wrote all this strawmen if I was saying things which were easily provable to be false. Anyway, even detterence has it's limit as history prove it (Afganistan, Vietnam) and that's why most of us try to avoid a real war and keep to "military intervention" as long as it's possible. The thing is that Ukrainia isn't valuable enough to intervene military to save it and this is the exact reason of why the Russian dared to invade it when they stay away from Poland.

You keep dancing around the Baltics issue. Seriously. Answer the question. Are nearly all French willing to die to protect Estonia?

The answer is no.
http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/order-fr ... piro-newby
There is no popular or government support for France to use its nukes. Give me one source that says France would. A majority of French 53% are AGAINST fighting to defend the Baltics and even Poland. And that is conventionally. With nukes that would become pretty much no one.

The majority France lacks the will to fight at all. That is a fact. Let alone use nuclear weapons. Hence why the Baltics are scared, the U.S. is protecting them because France and Germany will not.

Nuclear weapons in France do nothing to deter a conventional attack on the Baltics. That is a fact. France would not use nukes because it would be stupid and suicidal to do so. And no conventional wars involving nuclear armed countries do happen as you admitted. And Fance has nukes, but the Baltics do not, and the majority of French would not fight for the Baltics conventionally. You are simply not going to sacrifice Paris to save Narva. And yes to say you would is a joke.

But you admitted the truth. You are just exploiting the the U.S., because we are protecting you for free. You ADMITTED in your own words to being a freeloader.

And no we are not all eager. Obama wanted to withdraw from Europe and was doing so, but had to come back to bail you out. And I support withdrawing all permanent U.S. Forces from Europe and dissolving EUCOM. Hopefully we do so soon so you can stop freeloading.

Many if not most Americans are not eager and quite sick of your freeloading and exploitative attitude. It is long past time you do you own dirty work.

We had to defend you when the Soviets were around. They were too strong. But the are long gone. It is long past time the U.S. leaves Europe.

You need to deal with Greece and Russia on your own.

[Novus America]

Again: that is a PR issue.

Let us make a silly story that can function as an analogy.In the eyes of many, Greece is acting like a spoiled wife. One who married a reasonably well-of husband and then asked to borrow his creditcard to buy that awesome swimsuit. To which the husband replied "sure, but buy a nice suit to wear to job interviews as well - so you can apply and become self-sufficient". Wife agrees, but of course does not actually buy the suit nor goes to any job interviews - instead preferring beach parties. This repeats a few times. Husband then becomes slightly less well to do. Has to take out another mortgage, exchange his car for a smaller one, and perhaps even touch that college fund set aside for their promising kids.
So asks his wife again to help and actually find a job, to sell some of those swimsuits she bought or at least start buying the groceries in a less expensive store. The wife responds by asking all her friends if she looks better in a swimsuit or pants; and then uses the result of that referendum to tell the husband "no to all". And then whines he is being unreasonable and demanding.

That is a *mild* version of how people view Greeks. Less mild people just see a bunch of ungrateful beggars.

Actually, try this one: Imagine the whole thing from the perspective of an African country. The amount of effort going into saving Greece compared to what any of them have gone through to get funding from the IMF and then the Greeks reject the deal on the table. White fucking privilege on an international level.

Exactly. The much poorer countries in Eastern Europe and around the world in the IMF have no interest in bailing out the much richer Greece. If your millionaire neighbor was bankrupt would you bail him out?

Greece is struggling but is still much richer and better off in terms of living standards than most of the world.

It is absurd to think India, Nigeria and Bulgaria should bail out Greece.

[Aelex]

But you admitted the truth. You are just exploiting the the U.S., because we are protecting you for free. You ADMITTED in your own words to being a freeloader.

No. I sayed that if Eastern Europe needed help on a matter which didn't concerned us directly, there were no need for us to force ourselves to intervene when someone was already willing to do it.

And no we are not all eager. Obama wanted to withdraw from Europe and was doing so, but had to come back to bail you out. And I support withdrawing all permanent U.S. Forces from Europe and dissolving EUCOM.

We already withdrawed from the operational command of the NATO almost 50 years ago and we have the third/fourth most powerful military in the world so it's not like we're really needing you anyway.

Hopefully we do so soon so you can stop freeloading.

Many if not most Americans are not eager and quite sick of your freeloading and exploitative attitude. It is long past time you do you own dirty work.

We had to defend you when the Soviets were around. They were too strong. But the are long gone. It is long past time the U.S. leaves Europe.

The thing which make me smile with your little isolationist statement is that doing so will basically cut off U.S.A's sphère d'influence by 1/3 if not 1/2, reducing by the same way your capability of influencing country to the world's level; thus confirming America's eventual fall from his place of Superpower almost 30 years after the U.S.S.'s collapse.

You need to deal with Greece and Russia on your own.

That however is true.

[Novus America]

But you admitted the truth. You are just exploiting the the U.S., because we are protecting you for free. You ADMITTED in your own words to being a freeloader.

No. I sayed that if Eastern Europe needed help on a matter which didn't concerned us directly, there were no need for us to force ourselves to intervene when someone was already willing to do it.

And no we are not all eager. Obama wanted to withdraw from Europe and was doing so, but had to come back to bail you out. And I support withdrawing all permanent U.S. Forces from Europe and dissolving EUCOM.

We already withdrawed from the operational command of the NATO almost 50 years ago and we have the third/fourth most powerful military in the world so it's not like we're really needing you anyway.

Hopefully we do so soon so you can stop freeloading.

Many if not most Americans are not eager and quite sick of your freeloading and exploitative attitude. It is long past time you do you own dirty work.

We had to defend you when the Soviets were around. They were too strong. But the are long gone. It is long past time the U.S. leaves Europe.

The thing which make me smile with your little isolationist statement is that doing so will basically cut off U.S.A's sphère d'influence by 1/3 if not 1/2, reducing by the same way your capability of influencing country to the world's level; thus confirming America's eventual fall from his place of Superpower almost 30 years after the U.S.S.'s collapse.

You need to deal with Greece and Russia on your own.

That however is true.

Being a superpower brings more harm than good. And "spheres of influence" are an outdated concept. Besides we would still have influence in Europe economically, and would still uphold our NATO commitments and send reinforcements if a war did break out. But Europe needs to provide the front line and initial forces.

And yes I know most French are comfortable in their little bubble, unwilling to fight for NATO which is why the Baltics cannot trust you.

But at least we agree the Europe needs to handle Russia and Greece on its own. So why are they not doing so?

[Hydesland]

Actually, try this one: Imagine the whole thing from the perspective of an African country. The amount of effort going into saving Greece compared to what any of them have gone through to get funding from the IMF and then the Greeks reject the deal on the table. White fucking privilege on an international level.

There used to be huge pushes (and still are but it doesn't make the news anymore) for debt forgiveness in many African countries, and these pushes were uncontroversial and didn't get anywhere near as much "HURR MORAL HAZZARD HURR" opposition as Greece does because you know, people actually accepted reality then.

[Novus America]

Debts are actually not the pressing issue, aside from payments to the Troika for the programs. A good deal of the debt in question has no interest on it, either by current design or because it's not going to be charged as long as Greece isn't improving. The debts are also not due anytime soon.

Debts aren't right no a pressing issue, but I just used them as an example that austerity doesn't even work to reduce the national debt, much less for everything else.

Concessions? The largest issues that keep the Greek budget inflated beyond reason remained virtually untouched while new spending was added. And even then the Greeks walked out of every agreement that had supposedly been reached.

This is not true, the EU and Greece had been negotiating for weeks, finnally, Greece sent a proposal that made HUGE concessions, indeed, here the right-wing media said Tsipras had ''surrended'' and that ''there is no other way, only austerity''. Well, the EU decided that was not enough and sent another proposal, (remember, the EU, not Greece) and Syriza felt that it was not given the mandate to apply the measures which were sent to them, and so they held the referendum, and Greeks decided enough is enough.

Aid for reform. That's been the mantra and the current Greek government threw all solidarity out the window and is making demands because apparently their country is far more special than any other.

WTF? When German's debt was pardoned, even after they had ''threw all solidarity out the window'' causing a world war which killed millions, did the rest of Europe seek vengeance? No. We decided it was the best thing to do economically, and it turned out to end well.

Besides, Greece is not making demands because ''they are more special''. They are making demands because people like you asked them to cut down their spending, promising them this would end the crisis. And when they did, it turned out it had only served for the GDP to shrink and for debts to get even more unpayable. Right now Greece has a HUMANITARIAN crisis, and the rest of Europe doesn't care. With friends like this, there is no need for enemies.

The worst thing about the Greek crisis is to see the typical German, or Spanish (so you don't get offended), which is an economic illiterate, talk about these issues and hear them say things that have no sense. Half of Europe thinks they have the solution for Greece and this is why EU governments are so short-minded.

There are countless humanitarian crises around the world FAR worse than any in Greece. Libya, Iraq, Nigeria, Syria, Ukraine, the list goes on. If we are going to bail somebody out Greece should be far down the list of priorities.

Germany after the war was in a far worse humanitarian crises than Greece will ever be.

[Arkolon]

Actually, try this one: Imagine the whole thing from the perspective of an African country. The amount of effort going into saving Greece compared to what any of them have gone through to get funding from the IMF and then the Greeks reject the deal on the table. White fucking privilege on an international level.

There used to be huge pushes (and still are but it doesn't make the news anymore) for debt forgiveness in many African countries, and these pushes were uncontroversial and didn't get anywhere near as much "HURR MORAL HAZZARD HURR" opposition as Greece does because you know, people actually accepted reality then.

The reality here is that Greece is a member of the Eurozone, and this Greek crisis spills much further outside of Greece itself than any African default ever could have done. Grexit is a European problem as well as a Greek problem, which also bears the probability that it becomes a worldwide problem. African countries don't have that kind of importance.

[Novus America]

Actually, try this one: Imagine the whole thing from the perspective of an African country. The amount of effort going into saving Greece compared to what any of them have gone through to get funding from the IMF and then the Greeks reject the deal on the table. White fucking privilege on an international level.

There used to be huge pushes (and still are but it doesn't make the news anymore) for debt forgiveness in many African countries, and these pushes were uncontroversial and didn't get anywhere near as much "HURR MORAL HAZZARD HURR" opposition as Greece does because you know, people actually accepted reality then.

Because Greece is the 29th MOST developed country in the world. Debt forgiveness COSTS money. Who should pay? Poor countries still pay their IMF dues. There are literally 158 countries that are less developed. A rich person who goes bankrupt obviously gets little sympathy.

[Pollona]

Actually, try this one: Imagine the whole thing from the perspective of an African country. The amount of effort going into saving Greece compared to what any of them have gone through to get funding from the IMF and then the Greeks reject the deal on the table. White fucking privilege on an international level.

There used to be huge pushes (and still are but it doesn't make the news anymore) for debt forgiveness in many African countries, and these pushes were uncontroversial and didn't get anywhere near as much "HURR MORAL HAZZARD HURR" opposition as Greece does because you know, people actually accepted reality then.

The debts that certain African countries owed back were hardly significant for international finance (even in inflation adjusted terms), a far cry from the hundreds of billions of euros owed to the taxpayers of Europe. Back then private creditors acknowledged African countries' poor resource management, chaotic government institutions, wars, and breakdown in law and order made it difficult to see who would pay them back. Debt restructures in exchange for reforms have been common throughout the post WWII era; whether it was South America, Mexico, India, East Asia. Moral hazard was just as understood then as now.

Unfortunately, people no longer accept or read history. So you get instances where completely useless comparisons are pulled out of thin air.
Because, you know, accuracy hardly matters for some people.

[Hydesland]

There used to be huge pushes (and still are but it doesn't make the news anymore) for debt forgiveness in many African countries, and these pushes were uncontroversial and didn't get anywhere near as much "HURR MORAL HAZZARD HURR" opposition as Greece does because you know, people actually accepted reality then.

The reality here is that Greece is a member of the Eurozone, and this Greek crisis spills much further outside of Greece itself than any African default ever could have done. Grexit is a European problem as well as a Greek problem, which also bears the probability that it becomes a worldwide problem. African countries don't have that kind of importance.

This just proves my point even more. Not only is it ridiculous to say that we are giving Greece special privilege compared to many African countries, when in reality we have forgiven a huge amount of their debt already - according to you the situation in Greece is a much more serious situation so we should definitely be giving it more attention (spurious claim by the way, Greece is a tiny country with an extremely small economiy, the IMF loan they will likely default on is about what Walmart makes in 30 hours, all the markets have already priced in a default and graded its bonds junk so it defaulting would not be a surprising black swan, the only real danger is that Greece might do well from defaulting, giving PIGS incentive to do the same, please do not overstate its importance).

[Aelex]

Being a superpower brings more harm than good. And "spheres of influence" are outdated concept. Besides we would still have influence in Europe economically, and would still uphold our NATO commitments and send reinforcements if a war did break out. But Europe needs to provide the front line and initial forces.

Yeah. But you'll definitly lose your place as "THE leader power" and no matter what you think, with this prestige gone, so will most of the advantages you had.

And yes I know most French are comfortable in their little bubble, unwilling to fight for NATO which is why the Baltics cannot trust you.

Yeah, after all it's YOUR alliance. We don't have problems intervening when the problem concern us directly or one of our old colony but for the rest, it's your business. Britain may consider itself as the 51th state and follow you in all your stupid moves, but we are good by ourself.

But at least we agree the Europe needs to handle Russia and Greece on its own. So why are they not doing so?

Sorry to tell you that but brute force ain't always the better way and some time you need to give time to time, for the moment Russia isn't a real problem as long as it's keep bullying it's weak neighboor we don't care about and we will eventually resolve Greece's case.

[Hydesland]

Because Greece is the 29th MOST developed country in the world. Debt forgiveness COSTS money.

It's already a sunk cost, nobody actually expects the principle on these loans to ever get paid backed within their generation as I already explained.

Who should pay?

You don't pay, the creditors (Germany etc..) simply cope with the fact the loans they made earlier won't get repaid, which is pretty much the case either way.

[Novus America]

The reality here is that Greece is a member of the Eurozone, and this Greek crisis spills much further outside of Greece itself than any African default ever could have done. Grexit is a European problem as well as a Greek problem, which also bears the probability that it becomes a worldwide problem. African countries don't have that kind of importance.

This just proves my point even more. Not only is it ridiculous to say that we are giving Greece special privilege compared to many African countries, when in reality we have forgiven a huge amount of their debt already - according to you the situation in Greece is a much more serious situation so we should definitely be giving it more attention (spurious claim by the way, Greece is a tiny country with an extremely small economiy, the IMF loan they will likely default on is about what Walmart makes in 30 hours, all the markets have already priced in a default and graded its bonds junk so it defaulting would not be a surprising black swan, the only real danger is that Greece might do well from defaulting, giving PIGS incentive to do the same, please do not overstate its importance).

That is exactly the point. The EU cannot give reason for the rest of the PIIGS to do the same. If they do that would end the EU and devastate the EU economy. It makes sense that the EU is not willing to commit a potentially suicidal act.

[Novus America]

Because Greece is the 29th MOST developed country in the world. Debt forgiveness COSTS money.

It's already a sunk cost, nobody actually expects the principle on these loans to ever get paid backed within their generation as I already explained.

Who should pay?

You don't pay, the creditors (Germany etc..) simply cope with the fact the loans they made earlier won't get repaid, which is pretty much the case either way.

They still pay in lost interest payments, lost equity and lost investor confidence. India and Nigeria pay their IMF dues, should they expect to subsidize Greece?

[Arkolon]

The reality here is that Greece is a member of the Eurozone, and this Greek crisis spills much further outside of Greece itself than any African default ever could have done. Grexit is a European problem as well as a Greek problem, which also bears the probability that it becomes a worldwide problem. African countries don't have that kind of importance.

This just proves my point even more. Not only is it ridiculous to say that we are giving Greece special privilege compared to many African countries, when in reality we have forgiven a huge amount of their debt already - according to you the situation in Greece is a much more serious situation so we should definitely be giving it more attention (spurious claim by the way, Greece is a tiny country with an extremely small economiy, the IMF loan they will likely default on is about what Walmart makes in 30 hours, all the markets have already priced in a default and graded its bonds junk so it defaulting would not be a surprising black swan, the only real danger is that Greece might do well from defaulting, giving PIGS incentive to do the same, please do not overstate its importance).

Could you clarify for everyone that you are effectively denying that Grexit would have far-reaching and negative consequences on financial markets, Greece's future, the quality of life for Greek people, the stability of the Eurozone as a political entity, and the world economy?

[Hydesland]

That is exactly the point. The EU cannot give reason for the rest of the PIIGS to do the same.

But I don't think much of an incentive will be provided anyway, the PIIGS are actually much stronger than Greece and are not in an emergency situation like Greece is. Thanks to Draghi's "do what ever it takes" and subsequent aggressive bond buying programs (which excluded Greece by the way), their bond yields have stabilized over the long term. What the PIIGS know right now is that Greece's situation is horrible and the creditors aren't scared to cut off support, if anything seeing how disastrous it is for your economy to cross the creditors as shown over the last few weeks, seeing how far they are willing to go & how the ECB will nonchalantly cut off support, and knowing that they'd be much more hardball with you than with Greece - there is probably a huge incentive not to take the Greek route right now. I don't find contagion anywhere near as plausible.

[Novus America]

Being a superpower brings more harm than good. And "spheres of influence" are outdated concept. Besides we would still have influence in Europe economically, and would still uphold our NATO commitments and send reinforcements if a war did break out. But Europe needs to provide the front line and initial forces.

Yeah. But you'll definitly lose your place as "THE leader power" and no matter what you think, with this prestige gone, so will most of the advantages you had.

And yes I know most French are comfortable in their little bubble, unwilling to fight for NATO which is why the Baltics cannot trust you.

Yeah, after all it's YOUR alliance. We don't have problems intervening when the problem concern us directly or one of our old colony but for the rest, it's your business. Britain may consider itself as the 51th state and follow you in all your stupid moves, but we are good by ourself.

But at least we agree the Europe needs to handle Russia and Greece on its own. So why are they not doing so?

Sorry to tell you that but brute force ain't always the better way and some time you need to give time to time, for the moment Russia isn't a real problem as long as it's keep bullying it's weak neighboor we don't care about and we will eventually resolve Greece's case.

"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last."
Winston S. Churchill

Yes and I am sure the Ukrainians and Baltics are quite happy to be eaten so long as France is safe (for now). And France had its time as a superpower. How did that turn out? Not well. Subsidizing countries hurts your economy and benefits theirs. Besides China has plenty of power with no outside defense commitments. You do not need to subsidize others to be strong.

[Novus America]

That is exactly the point. The EU cannot give reason for the rest of the PIIGS to do the same.

But I don't think much of an incentive will be provided anyway, the PIIGS are actually much stronger than Greece and are not in an emergency situation like Greece is. Thanks to Draghi's "do what ever it takes" and subsequent aggressive bond buying programs (which excluded Greece by the way), their bond yields have stabilized over the long term. What the PIIGS know right now is that Greece's situation is horrible and the creditors aren't scared to cut off support, if anything seeing how disastrous it is for your economy to cross the creditors as shown over the last few weeks, seeing how far they are willing to know & how the ECB will nonchalantly cut off support, and knowing that they'd be much more hardball with you than with Greece - there is probably a huge incentive not to take the Greek route right now. I don't find contagion anywhere near as plausible.

Well as others pointed out the potential damage is so bad for the EU, that even if the risk is small, it is not a gamble they are willing to take. Russian roulette has less than a 1/6th chance of killing you, but it is still a stupid game to play.

And Greece is not even the poorest EU country.

[Hydesland]

Could you clarify for everyone that you are effectively denying that Grexit would have far-reaching and negative consequences on financial markets

It would have negative consequences, but it would hardly be an apocalypse and I expect the markets to shrug it off after a while depending on the reaction of the PIIGS. Again, the banks simply aren't dangerously exposed to Greek debts at all - and they have junk status so any exposure would be offset with CDS etc... Nobody would be surprised at all, everybody already sees it coming, unlike Lehman say. Obviously there will be your usual knee-jerk reaction causing stock markets and currencies to tank for a while, but unless there is evidence of political contagion they will soon recover.

Greece's future, the quality of life for Greek people

Many economists argue that, while painful in the short term, a Grexit would be ultimately beneficial in the long term.