Greek Financial Crisis Thread

[Aelex]

Hahaha. Ridiculous notion.

When you see the current situation we're into, it don't seem so.

[Laerod]

Hahaha. Ridiculous notion.

When you see the current situation we're into, it don't seem so.

Your statement was counterfactual. I laughed.

[Novus America]

It was always intended as a political union.

By the Americans who wanted a way to propagate their Atlantism and some, rares, European Federalists/Utopists. For the two people who basically created it (aka De Gaulle and Adenauer) and most of the people who followed them, it was only a common market.

Citation needed.
Otherwise this is just BS. Everything is not some ebul US plot, regardless of what RT says.

[Aelex]

Your statement was counterfactual. I laughed.

It's not counterfactual to say that neither De Gaulle nor Adenauer, who basically set the first stone of what would become the E.U with the Traité de l'Elysée and the common market , did it for nothing more than economical reasons, and to limit the growth of the Atlantism for De Gaulle.
Both of this men were supporter of an Europe des Nations and never wanted to establish an European Federation.

[Aelex]

Citation needed.
Otherwise this is just BS. Everything is not some ebul US plot, regardless of what RT says.

He [De Gaulle] shared a similar vision concerning Europe. He planned on creating a strong European Confederation that would overcome any dependence and any need for links with the United States or the Soviet Union, a “Free Europe”, a Europe “From the Atlantic to the Urals”

Basically, France and Allemagne opposed Supranationalism and that 'till the 80' after which the European Community started to degenerate.

[Laerod]

Your statement was counterfactual. I laughed.

It's not counterfactual to say that neither De Gaulle nor Adenauer, who basically set the first stone of what would become the E.U with the Traité de l'Elysée and the common market , did it for nothing more than economical reasons, and to limit the growth of the Atlantism for De Gaulle.
Both of this men were supporter of an Europe des Nations and never wanted to establish an European Federation.

Recognizing that increased co-operation between the two countries constitutes an indispensable stage on the way to a united Europe, which is the aim of the two peoples:

Yeah, sure sounds like you're right. Not to mention the Schuman Declaration totally disproves what I said as well.

[Novus America]

Citation needed.
Otherwise this is just BS. Everything is not some ebul US plot, regardless of what RT says.

He [De Gaulle] shared a similar vision concerning Europe. He planned on creating a strong European Confederation that would overcome any dependence and any need for links with the United States or the Soviet Union, a “Free Europe”, a Europe “From the Atlantic to the Urals”

Basically, France and Allemagne opposed Supranationalism and that 'till the 80' after which the European Community started to degenerate.

Look, I am no fan of the EU either.

But I am not seeing any mention of ebul U.S. plots.
You need a citation that the EU is some ebul US plot to rule the world. That is not RT.

[Novus America]

It's not counterfactual to say that neither De Gaulle nor Adenauer, who basically set the first stone of what would become the E.U with the Traité de l'Elysée and the common market , did it for nothing more than economical reasons, and to limit the growth of the Atlantism for De Gaulle.
Both of this men were supporter of an Europe des Nations and never wanted to establish an European Federation.

Recognizing that increased co-operation between the two countries constitutes an indispensable stage on the way to a united Europe, which is the aim of the two peoples:

Yeah, sure sounds like you're right. Not to mention the Schuman Declaration totally disproves what I said as well.

Well besides that (his own source disproves his contention), I am still not seeing the U.S. plot. If anything some wanted the EU to counterbalance the U.S. and NATO.

[Gauthier]

Greece has apologized and delivered a huge horse to the ECB.
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/inte ... 2051527146

That's a wonderful gesture

Wait, if Greece is in debt how they hell could they afford such a lavish gift to begin with?

[Laerod]

That's a wonderful gesture

Wait, if Greece is in debt how they hell could they afford such a lavish gift to begin with?

We really should just light it on fire and have it take the place of the € in front of the ECB while that's being restored.

[CTALNH]

Wait, if Greece is in debt how they hell could they afford such a lavish gift to begin with?

We really should just light it on fire and have it take the place of the € in front of the ECB while that's being restored.

Why are you so anti greece?

[Laerod]

We really should just light it on fire and have it take the place of the € in front of the ECB while that's being restored.

Why are you so anti greece?

You do realize the article is satire, right?

[CTALNH]

Why are you so anti greece?

You do realize the article is satire, right?

Doesn't make my question not applicable you have expressed anti greek sentiment before this satire article.

[Laerod]

You do realize the article is satire, right?

Doesn't make my question not applicable you have expressed anti greek sentiment before this satire article.

Not sure how you got that it was anti-Greek sentiment. The Euro symbol outside of the ECB got taken down for repairs and since the wooden horse won't provide light on its own, setting it on fire would help brighten the Frankfurt skyline. It's pro-illumination if anything.

[CTALNH]

Doesn't make my question not applicable you have expressed anti greek sentiment before this satire article.

Not sure how you got that it was anti-Greek sentiment. The Euro symbol outside of the ECB got taken down for repairs and since the wooden horse won't provide light on its own, setting it on fire would help brighten the Frankfurt skyline. It's pro-illumination if anything.

Oh so very funny....

[Aelex]

Look, I am no fan of the EU either.

But I am not seeing any mention of ebul U.S. plots.
You need a citation that the EU is some ebul US plot to rule the world. That is not RT.

Hear, I'm not saying that the E.U is an american puppet, just that American helped it's creation because they thought that 1) It would help them to counterbalance Russian influence in the region, 2) they wanted to conserve their own influence. Now, it's also obvious that the E.U as a whole is completly dependant on the U.S in military term (just see with the Ukrainia Crisis) but that could be also said of most European country.
I'm not some sort of conspirationist who think that the U.S want to govern us all (thought honestly, I think that if you could, you would like everybody else) but just someone who say that Supranationialism was a bad idea from the beginning and that it was so terribly appliqued that we ended up with something which is the polar opposite of what people wished to create.

The European Union (and it's "ancestors") were initally viewed as a way to unite the European people and to avoid a new war, but in the current context when the nationalism is rising as the economy is falling, the E.U we have actually with it's corrupt government where the lobby basically dictate most of the laws had became the perfect target for the extremist to spread their hatred and xenophobia.

[Novus America]

Look, I am no fan of the EU either.

But I am not seeing any mention of ebul U.S. plots.
You need a citation that the EU is some ebul US plot to rule the world. That is not RT.

Hear, I'm not saying that the E.U is an american puppet, just that American helped it's creation because they thought that 1) It would help them to counterbalance Russian influence in the region, 2) they wanted to conserve their own influence. Now, it's also obvious that the E.U as a whole is completly dependant on the U.S in military term (just see with the Ukrainia Crisis) but that could be also said of most European country.
I'm not some sort of conspirationist who think that the U.S want to govern us all (thought honestly, I think that if you could, you would like everybody else) but just someone who say that Supranationialism was a bad idea from the beginning and that it was so terribly appliqued that we ended up with something which is the polar opposite of what people wished to create.

The European Union (and it's "ancestors") were initally viewed as a way to unite the European people and to avoid a new war, but in the current context when the nationalism is rising as the economy is falling, the E.U we have actually with it's corrupt government where the lobby basically dictate most of the laws had became the perfect target for the extremist to spread their hatred and xenophobia.

You have still provided no sources of American involvement. Yes the EU is messed up right now, I doubt anybody could deny that. But Europeans only have themselves to blame. Fix your own damn problems and stop blaming the U.S. on one side while crying for help from us on the other.

Oh and maybe start protecting yourselves. Trust me, a lot of Americans are tired of protecting European freeloaders unwilling to actually protect themselves. You have more than 3 times the population and some 9 times greater economy than Russia. The fact that the EU cannot crush Russia with ease in a fight is pathetic. The EU is a giant cowering before an ant.

[Aelex]

Recognizing that increased co-operation between the two countries constitutes an indispensable stage on the way to a united Europe, which is the aim of the two peoples:

United doesn't mean that the different european country should federate in a single entity but promote diplomacy and good relations. And no. Just no. You can't just take some quote from a treaty of mutual help between two country, and which aimed to counter Supranationalism, and use it "Hors-Contexte" to make as if it sayed the contrary.

Yeah, sure sounds like you're right. Not to mention the Schuman Declaration totally disproves what I said as well.

Schuman was one of the "utopist" I was talking about. Anyway it's not like this declaration this declaration was ratified under la 4ième (République) (aka a parlementary and unstable governement which eventually collapsed on itself) on total secret by only two men and that every government following them did everything they can to undo what they did.

[Laerod]

United doesn't mean that the different european country should federate in a single entity but promote diplomacy and good relations. And no. Just no. You can't just take some quote from a treaty of mutual help between two country, and which aimed to counter Supranationalism, and use it "Hors-Contexte" to make as if it sayed the contrary.

Yeah, sure sounds like you're right. Not to mention the Schuman Declaration totally disproves what I said as well.

Schuman was one of the "utopist" I was talking about. Anyway it's not like this declaration this declaration was ratified under la 4ième (République) (aka a parlementary and unstable governement which eventually collapsed on itself) on total secret by only two men and that every government following them did everything they can to undo what they did.

If that was true, it wouldn't be false.

[Aelex]

You have still provided no sources of American involvement. Yes the EU is messed up right now, I doubt anybody could deny that. But Europeans only have themselves to blame. Fix your own damn problems and stop blaming the U.S. on one side while crying for help from us on the other.

"Oh and maybe start protecting yourselves." Trust me, a lot of Americans are tired of protecting European freeloaders unwilling to actually protect themselves. You have more than 3 times the population and some 9 times greater economy than Russia. The fact that the EU cannot crush Russia with ease in a fight is pathetic. The EU is a giant cowering before an ant.

"The United States jealously guards its national sovereignty. This has been reflected in reluctance to participate fully in international agreements or organizations with a 'supranational' flavor, such as the International Criminal Court or the Kyoto Protocols. It is therefore surprising to find that the United States was one of the principal architects of the supranational characteristics of what has developed into the European Union. Specifically, the earliest stages of European integration, which is embodied in the European Coal and Steel Community Treaty, were heavily influenced by US insistence on creation of supranational institutions that could exert dominance over sovereign European governments."
http://arrow.dit.ie/aaschlawart/8/
Here is your source saying that the U.S influenced a lot the E.U and it's former forms.

Anyway, most of European don't expect that America help them but to the contrary America mind it's own fucking business and stop pretending to be the world's police. Fews are the Atlantists still in power nowaday (except in U.K of course) precisely because America shitted so much on it's pants that it lost all credibility.

Still, the "Oh and maybe start protecting yourselves." made me smile, it's not like, you know, France basically have the possibility of exterminating the population of a whole continent and creating a nucler winter but well, I hope you understand that Russia had this capacity too. So yeah, the main reason Europe ain't "crush[ing] Russia with ease in a fight" is mostly because if a war broke up, everyone on the planet is dead.

[The Alma Mater]

You do realize the article is satire, right?

Doesn't make my question not applicable you have expressed anti greek sentiment before this satire article.

Bad PR of course. Have you taken a long look at how the Greeks have been dealing with this situation ? The arrogance, the mocking and the silly twisting and turning ?
If they wanted goodwill they should have used slightly different tactics.

[Novus America]

You have still provided no sources of American involvement. Yes the EU is messed up right now, I doubt anybody could deny that. But Europeans only have themselves to blame. Fix your own damn problems and stop blaming the U.S. on one side while crying for help from us on the other.

"Oh and maybe start protecting yourselves." Trust me, a lot of Americans are tired of protecting European freeloaders unwilling to actually protect themselves. You have more than 3 times the population and some 9 times greater economy than Russia. The fact that the EU cannot crush Russia with ease in a fight is pathetic. The EU is a giant cowering before an ant.

"The United States jealously guards its national sovereignty. This has been reflected in reluctance to participate fully in international agreements or organizations with a 'supranational' flavor, such as the International Criminal Court or the Kyoto Protocols. It is therefore surprising to find that the United States was one of the principal architects of the supranational characteristics of what has developed into the European Union. Specifically, the earliest stages of European integration, which is embodied in the European Coal and Steel Community Treaty, were heavily influenced by US insistence on creation of supranational institutions that could exert dominance over sovereign European governments."
http://arrow.dit.ie/aaschlawart/8/
Here is your source saying that the U.S influenced a lot the E.U and it's former forms.

Anyway, most of European don't expect that America help them but to the contrary America mind it's own fucking business and stop pretending to be the world's police. Fews are the Atlantists still in power nowaday (except in U.K of course) precisely because America shitted so much on it's pants that it lost all credibility.

Still, the "Oh and maybe start protecting yourselves." made me smile, it's not like, you know, France basically have the possibility of exterminating the population of a whole continent and creating a nucler winter but well, I hope you understand that Russia had this capacity too. So yeah, the main reason Europe ain't "crush[ing] Russia with ease in a fight" is mostly because if a war broke up, everyone on the planet is dead.

I am sure some Americans gave advice, but we never forced anything on you with the EU. And it is up to you to reform it.

And no, it does not work that way. Nuclear weapons (France does not have enough to destroy the world or even Russia) are not helping the EU in Ukraine. You yourself said Ukraine showed how weak the EU is.

You wrote
"Now, it's also obvious that the E.U as a whole is completly dependant on the U.S in military term (just see with the Ukrainia Crisis) but that could be also said of most European country."

See especially for France, you only have a small number of all strategic weapons. You can only hurt Russia while dying. They only provide some deference against a Russian nuclear strike on France. You can only use them as a last resort. Not in a conventional war.

If Russia attacked the Baltics what could you do without the U.S.? Besides surrender?

And yes the EU is crying for help. And it is getting annoying.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/14/wo ... &referrer=

We even bailed out your banks.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240 ... 2763082876

[Martean]

Austerity doesn't work. It hasn't, and it will not. After 5 years of draconian measures, Greece's GDP has fallen a significant 27%, unemployment is at 27% and there is a huge humanitarian crisis. Besides, as Krugman says, austerity doesn't solve the debt issue, so it is absolutely worthless.

Greece has a government willing to make some concesions, but whose objective in the long run is to end austerity measures, and we also have the US government that, surprisingly, has more or less alligned with the Greek side (aka ebul communizts), and has forced the IMF to admit that reestructuring the Greek debt may not be as crazy as they claimed it to be.

However, there is the EU, whose biggest ambition right now seems to be assuring that Podemos doesn't win this November's Spanish General election, or that M5S and FN don't win either. And for that objective, it is willing to let Greece fail. This is nothing more than a message for Europeans: there is no alternative.

But there is, and sooner or later more countries will fall on the Greek side. I just hope Syriza still rules Greece by then, which I doubt.

[Aelex]

I am sure some Americans gave advice, but we never forced anything on you with the EU.

Whatever.

You yourself said Ukraine showed how weak the EU is.
You wrote
"Now, it's also obvious that the E.U as a whole is completly dependant on the U.S in military term (just see with the Ukrainia Crisis) but that could be also said of most European country."

Yeah, I said that the E.U which lack of an official army is therefore dependant completly on American's help. I never said, however, that the differents nations which compose the E.U are THEM dependant on American's help.

See especially for France, you only have a small number of all strategic weapons. You can only hurt Russia while dying. They only provide some deference against a Russian nuclear strike on France. You can only use them as a last resort. Not in a conventional war.

In 1980 we had the possibility to obliterate, in the worst case scenario, at least 35% of Russian Population and 45% of it's industrial potential. Nowaday, this estimation is now way under the damages we could do because, despite not creating new bombs any more and having a lower stock than Russia (yet the third largest stockpile), we have up to date nuclear bombs when the Russian only have the one which remain from the Cold War era.
Also, you seem to don't understand that they ain't "conventionnal war" anymore. Any real war, like an invasion of Poland or of a country member of the E.U would result in an intervention of one the European Great Power and thus in the death of most of the population of the continent.

And yes the EU is crying for help. And it is getting annoying.

Well, since you're getting your influence on the said nation only because of your capacity of protecting, it's not so much "crying for help" than asking you to do an intelligent move for once.

[Laerod]

Austerity doesn't work. It hasn't, and it will not. After 5 years of draconian measures, Greece's GDP has fallen a significant 27%, unemployment is at 27% and there is a huge humanitarian crisis. Besides, as Krugman says, austerity doesn't solve the debt issue, so it is absolutely worthless.

Debts are actually not the pressing issue, aside from payments to the Troika for the programs. A good deal of the debt in question has no interest on it, either by current design or because it's not going to be charged as long as Greece isn't improving. The debts are also not due anytime soon.

Greece has a government willing to make some concesions, but whose objective in the long run is to end austerity measures, and we also have the US government that, surprisingly, has more or less alligned with the Greek side (aka ebul communizts), and has forced the IMF to admit that reestructuring the Greek debt may not be as crazy as they claimed it to be.

Concessions? The largest issues that keep the Greek budget inflated beyond reason remained virtually untouched while new spending was added. And even then the Greeks walked out of every agreement that had supposedly been reached.

However, there is the EU, whose biggest ambition right now seems to be assuring that Podemos doesn't win this November's Spanish General election, or that M5S and FN don't win either. And for that objective, it is willing to let Greece fail. This is nothing more than a message for Europeans: there is no alternative.

But there is, and sooner or later more countries will fall on the Greek side. I just hope Syriza still rules Greece by then, which I doubt.

Aid for reform. That's been the mantra and the current Greek government threw all solidarity out the window and is making demands because apparently their country is far more special than any other.