Greek Financial Crisis Thread

[Geilinor]

Could Greece have afforded stimulus spending?

Greece could have if the establishment parties, the EU, and the IMF had realized that Greece needed debt relief. It didn't have to get to the point of default.

[Novus America]

It's a nasty dilemma, but there needs to be a serious debate in Greece on this. Unfortunately, Syriza seem completely convinced that Greece can have the best of both worlds. Alexis Tsipras' negotiating technique is to avoid compromise, assuming that the Troika will compromise on their (rather harsh) demands and go out of their way to prevent the much-feared 'Grexit', even if it means they have to write off debt or pay out cash. It doesn't seem to have occurred to Syriza that the Troika may not want to compromise any more than they do. If Greece is able to obtain free debt write-offs by having Tsipras as their prime minister, what message does that send to countries where Podemos and Marine Le Pen have been growing in popularity?

I think you've got it just right. The EU is not acting taking only into account economic factors, as it should, but it is rather trying to stop the unstoppable: the possibility that anti-EU (FN), or moderate euroskeptics (Podemos) parties reach power in more countries than the tiny, bankrupt Greece. Because one thing is to cope with one anti-establishment party that accounts only for 2% of the GDP and slightly more than 11 million inhabitants. But if big countries such as Spain, France and Italy dare to vote ''wrongly'' it could mean the end of the EU. And at least one of those three is holding it's general elections this November, just after the local and regional elections on May, which meant a huge political earthquake.

This is why the EU is acting like this with Greece, and not because it's the best thing to do economically. So don't try to find any economic logic for this: this is politics, not economics.

Of course. The EU is all about politics. It is not in the least bit logically constituted from an economic point of view.

[Greed and Death]

I think you've got it just right. The EU is not acting taking only into account economic factors, as it should, but it is rather trying to stop the unstoppable: the possibility that anti-EU (FN), or moderate euroskeptics (Podemos) parties reach power in more countries than the tiny, bankrupt Greece. Because one thing is to cope with one anti-establishment party that accounts only for 2% of the GDP and slightly more than 11 million inhabitants. But if big countries such as Spain, France and Italy dare to vote ''wrongly'' it could mean the end of the EU. And at least one of those three is holding it's general elections this November, just after the local and regional elections on May, which meant a huge political earthquake.

This is why the EU is acting like this with Greece, and not because it's the best thing to do economically. So don't try to find any economic logic for this: this is politics, not economics.

Of course. The EU is all about politics. It is not in the least bit logically constituted from an economic point of view.

America could buy an island or two, we need an island in the Mediterranean after all.

[The Conez Imperium]

I think you've got it just right. The EU is not acting taking only into account economic factors, as it should, but it is rather trying to stop the unstoppable: the possibility that anti-EU (FN), or moderate euroskeptics (Podemos) parties reach power in more countries than the tiny, bankrupt Greece. Because one thing is to cope with one anti-establishment party that accounts only for 2% of the GDP and slightly more than 11 million inhabitants. But if big countries such as Spain, France and Italy dare to vote ''wrongly'' it could mean the end of the EU. And at least one of those three is holding it's general elections this November, just after the local and regional elections on May, which meant a huge political earthquake.

This is why the EU is acting like this with Greece, and not because it's the best thing to do economically. So don't try to find any economic logic for this: this is politics, not economics.

Of course. The EU is all about politics. It is not in the least bit logically constituted from an economic point of view.

The European Union originally started as an economic union. Of course it's intentions has changed but it was founded as an customs union.

[Novus America]

Of course. The EU is all about politics. It is not in the least bit logically constituted from an economic point of view.

The European Union originally started as an economic union. Of course it's intentions has changed but it was founded as an customs union.

True. But it has evolved far beyond that. If it had stayed a simple customs union there would be fewer problems. The point is it is no longer based on logical economics.

[Greed and Death]

It's a nasty dilemma, but there needs to be a serious debate in Greece on this. Unfortunately, Syriza seem completely convinced that Greece can have the best of both worlds. Alexis Tsipras' negotiating technique is to avoid compromise, assuming that the Troika will compromise on their (rather harsh) demands and go out of their way to prevent the much-feared 'Grexit', even if it means they have to write off debt or pay out cash. It doesn't seem to have occurred to Syriza that the Troika may not want to compromise any more than they do. If Greece is able to obtain free debt write-offs by having Tsipras as their prime minister, what message does that send to countries where Podemos and Marine Le Pen have been growing in popularity?

I think you've got it just right. The EU is not acting taking only into account economic factors, as it should, but it is rather trying to stop the unstoppable: the possibility that anti-EU (FN), or moderate euroskeptics (Podemos) parties reach power in more countries than the tiny, bankrupt Greece. Because one thing is to cope with one anti-establishment party that accounts only for 2% of the GDP and slightly more than 11 million inhabitants. But if big countries such as Spain, France and Italy dare to vote ''wrongly'' it could mean the end of the EU. And at least one of those three is holding it's general elections this November, just after the local and regional elections on May, which meant a huge political earthquake.

This is why the EU is acting like this with Greece, and not because it's the best thing to do economically. So don't try to find any economic logic for this: this is politics, not economics.

It is a very logical argument, if doing X results in a very bad outcome even with low probability. You should avoid doing X.

[Greed and Death]

Greece has apologized and delivered a huge horse to the ECB.
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/inte ... 2051527146

[Bombadil]

Greece has apologized and delivered a huge horse to the ECB.
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/inte ... 2051527146

That's a wonderful gesture

[Aelex]

The European Union originally started as an economic union. Of course it's intentions has changed but it was founded as an customs union.

It should have stayed like that, as a prefferential market and nothing more.

[Laerod]

The European Union originally started as an economic union. Of course it's intentions has changed but it was founded as an customs union.

It should have stayed like that, as a prefferential market and nothing more.

It was always intended as a political union.

[CTALNH]

So apparently the EU has two offers for us.



One we take 70 billion and pass strict austerity measures.

Two they give us 30-35 billion and we introduce and second currency for national use.

I don't if this is true but can I have option two please?

[Greed and Death]

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/07/g ... 56470.html


Greek banks will be out of Cash Wednesday. Wow.

[Sophisticated horrors]

America could buy an island or two, we need an island in the Mediterranean after all.

You (the US of A) should pay off your own debts first - which you´re unable to do, before bragging about "buying some island".

[Minoa]

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/07/greek-banks-running-cash-key-eu-meeting-150707071756470.html


Greek banks will be out of Cash Wednesday. Wow.

I wonder if Syriza is thinking about a moneyless society? However, it's my day off from the news (due to overload) so I can't say much about their response to banks running out of cash until tomorrow.

[Aelex]

It was always intended as a political union.

By the Americans who wanted a way to propagate their Atlantism and some, rares, European Federalists/Utopists. For the two people who basically created it (aka De Gaulle and Adenauer) and most of the people who followed them, it was only a common market.

[Greed and Death]

America could buy an island or two, we need an island in the Mediterranean after all.

You (the US of A) should pay off your own debts first - which you´re unable to do, before bragging about "buying some island".

Our debts are sustainable and at an interest rate that is practically zero. I am sure we could borrow a few billion at our 30 year rate and have us one Island as a military base and another island as a place for American tourist.

[Arkolon]

You (the US of A) should pay off your own debts first - which you´re unable to do, before bragging about "buying some island".

Our debts are sustainable and at an interest rate that is practically zero. I am sure we could borrow a few billion at our 30 year rate and have us one Island as a military base and another island as a place for American tourist.

The US spends more every year repaying its debt than Greece has debt. To be honest, the US could probably buy Greece itself, if it was on offer, without too many economic consequences

[Greed and Death]

Our debts are sustainable and at an interest rate that is practically zero. I am sure we could borrow a few billion at our 30 year rate and have us one Island as a military base and another island as a place for American tourist.

The US spends more every year repaying its debt than Greece has debt. To be honest, the US could probably buy Greece itself, if it was on offer, without too many economic consequences

Someone who makes minimum wage has a problem when they have 30,00 in debt.

Someone who is a billionaire barely notices a 100,000 dollar debt.


The Debt to GDP ratio stands at roughly 170% for Greece and 70% for America. The ten year bond rate for Greece is roughly 18%, the US bond rate is roughly 2.2%.

[Baltenstein]

Greece has apologized and delivered a huge horse to the ECB.
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/inte ... 2051527146

[Baltenstein]

Our debts are sustainable and at an interest rate that is practically zero. I am sure we could borrow a few billion at our 30 year rate and have us one Island as a military base and another island as a place for American tourist.

The US spends more every year repaying its debt than Greece has debt. To be honest, the US could probably buy Greece itself, if it was on offer, without too many economic consequences

The US owned Greece between 1967 and 1974, didn't turn out so well.

[Greed and Death]

The US spends more every year repaying its debt than Greece has debt. To be honest, the US could probably buy Greece itself, if it was on offer, without too many economic consequences

The US owned Greece between 1967 and 1974, didn't turn out so well.

That is why we just want the a few Islands, of course and Greeks on said Islands will be shipped back to the mainland.

[CTALNH]

The US owned Greece between 1967 and 1974, didn't turn out so well.

That is why we just want the a few Islands, of course and Greeks on said Islands will be shipped back to the mainland.

So can you please stop being a salty muggle and stop saying things that offend me?

[Minoa]

But how would Syriza find another tough guy so that they don't have to even think about capitulating? It pays to have a Plan B if the referendum doesn't scare the Eurogroup.

Why should Eurogroup be afraid in the first place?

If it goes as far as Greece ignoring the debt completely like Argentina did to the "vulture" funds, they won't get any of the outstanding debt back.

[Laerod]

It was always intended as a political union.

By the Americans who wanted a way to propagate their Atlantism and some, rares, European Federalists/Utopists. For the two people who basically created it (aka De Gaulle and Adenauer) and most of the people who followed them, it was only a common market.

Hahaha. Ridiculous notion.

[Greed and Death]

Why should Eurogroup be afraid in the first place?

If it goes as far as Greece ignoring the debt completely like Argentina did to the "vulture" funds, they won't get any of the outstanding debt back.

They would get the 5 or 6 cents on the dollar they sell it to the vulture funds for.


The vulture funds would then force future defaults by suing Greece in New York Courts until they get 100% back.