Greek Financial Crisis Thread

[Hydesland]

Exactly, it would be stupid to expect Syriza to accept mass privatization.

Well, that is what happens when two sides are too far apart. No deal happens. Greece was stuck when they elected Syriza.

But what do you expect. Greece was suffering a worse depression than the United States during the great depression, the IMF now finally admits that the 2012 program was completely wrong headed and would not succeed in achieving debt sustainability, they were one of the few parties seeking to aggressively renegotiate the terms of this program so it's inevitable that a party like them would get voted in. I'm not saying Syriza is a great party (I'm centrist, not left wing) but we have to accept the spectacular failure of the 2012 program is partially responsible for the rise of this radical party in the first place, the Troika must not escape criticism.

[Novus America]

You also played chicken whith the Turks and UK after WWI. Tell me how that went...
Hey maybe you are right, maybe just maybe the Troika will fold and I will admit you were right. Maybe the clif is only ten feet down with water at the bottom. We will have to see. When you hit the bottom we will know. I like my position better, I prefer to be the person watching instead of the one falling.

Troika won't go away. They can't dictate to terms to other 18 european countries (which they refer to as troika) especially considering that it's the Greece who's asking money not other way around.

I agree. But he will not be convinced how tall the cliff is until he hits the bottom. Of course once you are splattered at the bottom it is too late to reconsider jumping off the cliff.
But the die is cast. Nothing left to do but wait for the results.

[Minoa]

After 82.04 % of votes counted:
NO: 2.822.728
YES: 1.762.139

And amid an actual stormy night in Berlin tonight, Merkel and Hollande intend to hold a emergency summit on Tuesday (indicative).

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-33400127

[CTALNH]

Do you even know why there is tax evasion in greece?

Again:

Greece Struggles to Get Citizens to Pay Their Taxes

“Greeks consider taxes as theft,” said Aristides Hatzis, an associate professor of law and economics at the University of Athens. “Normally taxes are considered the price you have to pay for a just state, but this is not accepted by the Greek mentality.”

First that is absolute fucking shitte.

Secondly so you can fucking be enlightened what is to live in greece.

Tax evasion is a fucking result of the customer based government system of favors for votes ND and PASOK made the same fucking people the Europe supports.

The same fucking people that kept saying all these days that we greeks should vote yes,

That is why Yes lost I don't even need to give another reason for why No won.

Even until fucking recently that ND was supposedly reforming the nation under the demand of the austerity measures they were tasked to complete.

You want a example? The ND and PASOK supporters were not fucking paying water in my fucking city and their taxes were levelled on the ones that were paying their fucking taxes until 3 months ago and they didn't even hide it.

Do you understand now? Tax evasion is a not a endemic cultural issue but a result of corrupt ass holes of ND and PASOK.

[Greed and Death]

Greek Banks prepare to give a 30% haircut to Greek deposits over 8,000 Euro to prevent a run on the banks

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9963b74c-219c ... z3f3BaHaoi


Things got bad quickly.

[Geilinor]

Greek Banks prepare to give a 30% haircut to Greek deposits over 8,000 Euro to prevent a run on the banks

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9963b74c-219c ... z3f3BaHaoi


Things got bad quickly.

It's 1929 in Greece today - again.

[Laerod]

No cuts to pensions, instead raising the age over time, no major alteration of VAT that the government didn't ask for anyway, restructuring of debt, investment package, etc.

When did they actually agree not to cut pensions? And that's hardly extreme. Nor is not altering the VAT (which as you say, wasn't asked for anyway). Restructuring of debt was left off the table until it was far too late.

All of this was in the deal of the 25th. I can't say if it was in any earlier offers because I have not read through those. What I have read through was Greek proposals wanting to restructure and partly reduce the VAT, so your contention that it wasn't asked for at all is untrue. Another thing that wasn't asked for, interestingly enough, was cutting of military expenditure. That the Troika had to put on the table as a means to cut spending without going after social benefits.

Are you? Varoufakis specialized in Game Theory and it's becoming apparent he's been stating that he had a great program solely for PR purposes, knowing full well that none of the lists he presented would pass muster.

*facepalm* This old trope. First of all, Yannis is not playing games and he's not some political shill. I used to read some of his work before he had anything to do with Syriza, while I disagree with many of his views, he is certainly very astute and reasonable, not some crazed idealogue.

My contention is he's been publicly lying about actually wanting to find an agreement and has been actively pursuing a policy of raising the stakes so as to squeeze as many concessions as possible by failing to reach an agreement. Him writing an opinion piece about how he's not doing that is utterly meaningless in disproving that.

They most definitely were part of the deal from the 25th.

Source? From what I've read, it was introduced on the 25th but was replacing an earlier offer on the same day, and only after the referendum was announced.

I've linked the Juncker press conference before in a discussion where Greek proposals were cited as well. A quick search of my posts in this thread should reveal it, but I'm not going to go look for it because, quite frankly, the thread on banning ideologies is more interesting and will be consuming the rest of my time this evening.

[Fremont Forest]

Do you even know why there is tax evasion in greece?

Again:

Greece Struggles to Get Citizens to Pay Their Taxes

“Greeks consider taxes as theft,” said Aristides Hatzis, an associate professor of law and economics at the University of Athens. “Normally taxes are considered the price you have to pay for a just state, but this is not accepted by the Greek mentality.”

I think this is an oversimplification of why Greeks don't pay taxes. It's not that they have deep-rooted disdain for the concept like your typical american conservative, rather they don't see the greek state as an institution concerned with the common interest, rather it is seen as an institution run by unfamiliar people seeking personal gain.

And rampant tax evasion is only part of the problem. Greece never industrialized to the same extent that western and northern Europe did, and they never reformed their civil service to eliminate the rampant political corruption, and machine politics the same way countries like the UK did.

[Hydesland]

so your contention that it wasn't asked for

That's what you said, I was just assuming you were correct.

My contention is he's been publicly lying about actually wanting to find an agreement and has been actively pursuing a policy of raising the stakes so as to squeeze as many concessions as possible by failing to reach an agreement. Him writing an opinion piece about how he's not doing that is utterly meaningless in disproving that.

It's an unproven contention either way. I don't doubt that he wants to get concessions out of them, that's why they were voted in in the first place. That doesn't mean he's interested in reaching an agreement, I am certain that he is.

[Novus America]

Again:

Greece Struggles to Get Citizens to Pay Their Taxes

First that is absolute fucking shitte.

Secondly so you can fucking be enlightened what is to live in greece.

Tax evasion is a fucking result of the customer based government system of favors for votes ND and PASOK made the same fucking people the Europe supports.

The same fucking people that kept saying all these days that we greeks should vote yes,

That is why Yes lost I don't even need to give another reason for why No won.

Even until fucking recently that ND was supposedly reforming the nation under the demand of the austerity measures they were tasked to complete.

You want a example? The ND and PASOK supporters were not fucking paying water in my fucking city and their taxes were levelled on the ones that were paying their fucking taxes until 3 months ago and they didn't even hide it.

Do you understand now? Tax evasion is a not a endemic cultural issue but a result of corrupt ass holes of ND and PASOK.

Political parties are the symptom of societal problems. You would not have had ND and PASOK doing this but for you voting for them and allowing them to do it in the first place. Nobody told you to vote for PASOK and the Papandreou family, and keep voting for them as they ran your country into the ground.

[CTALNH]

First that is absolute fucking shitte.

Secondly so you can fucking be enlightened what is to live in greece.

Tax evasion is a fucking result of the customer based government system of favors for votes ND and PASOK made the same fucking people the Europe supports.

The same fucking people that kept saying all these days that we greeks should vote yes,

That is why Yes lost I don't even need to give another reason for why No won.

Even until fucking recently that ND was supposedly reforming the nation under the demand of the austerity measures they were tasked to complete.

You want a example? The ND and PASOK supporters were not fucking paying water in my fucking city and their taxes were levelled on the ones that were paying their fucking taxes until 3 months ago and they didn't even hide it.

Do you understand now? Tax evasion is a not a endemic cultural issue but a result of corrupt ass holes of ND and PASOK.

Political parties are the symptom of societal problems. You would not have had ND and PASOK doing this but for you voting for them and allowing them to do it in the first place. Nobody told you to vote for PASOK and the Papandreou family, and keep voting for them as they ran your country into the ground.

I didn't vote any of them neither did my family so your point generalizes a lot.

[Risottia]

Well, that is what happens when two sides are too far apart. No deal happens. Greece was stuck when they elected Syriza.

But what do you expect. Greece was suffering a worse depression than the United States during the great depression, the IMF now finally admits that the 2012 program was completely wrong headed and would not succeed in achieving debt sustainability, they were one of the few parties seeking to aggressively renegotiate the terms of this program so it's inevitable that a party like them would get voted in. I'm not saying Syriza is a great party (I'm centrist, not left wing) but we have to accept the spectacular failure of the 2012 program is partially responsible for the rise of this radical party in the first place, the Troika must not escape criticism.

Also, Syriza had the great merit of NOT being ND or PASOK. Not to justify Syriza's attitudes and strategy during the talks (I think they have performed rather badly, and I would have voted them at the last Greek elections), of course.

[Pollona]

Well, that is what happens when two sides are too far apart. No deal happens. Greece was stuck when they elected Syriza.

But what do you expect. Greece was suffering a worse depression than the United States during the great depression, the IMF now finally admits that the 2012 program was completely wrong headed and would not succeed in achieving debt sustainability, they were one of the few parties seeking to aggressively renegotiate the terms of this program so it's inevitable that a party like them would get voted in. I'm not saying Syriza is a great party (I'm centrist, not left wing) but we have to accept the spectacular failure of the 2012 program is partially responsible for the rise of this radical party in the first place, the Troika must not escape criticism.

It's not an absolution of the Troika but what can you expect? In 2010 they practically bought up almost all of Greece's private debt except for hold outs in the UK and the USA. Back then the private creditors took a hit and accepted a partial writeoff, now we are looking at the Eurozone governments are next on the chopping block. That's what is at stake in this second bailout agreement, which was signed in 2012.

Syriza wanted to renegotiate the tems of bailout which had already been agreed to. Why is it a magical mystery that the Eurozone would be skeptical? They were bound to be. Just as a left wing government would be hostile to privatizations, so would European leaders and their taxpayers to any new agreement that looked like an unconditional sell out. Both sides went into the renegotiation from different angles, but it doesnt change the fact that Greece already agreed to the terms back in 2012. The money was already flowing to Greece when the 2015 election was called. It is that simple, Syriza rejected the new terms and so the Eurozone pulled the plug.

You also misconstrued what the IMF said. They accept that Greece needs an additional write off and a bailout of 50 Billion Euros. But that will not come unconditionally. They have said nothing in regards to their previous bailout positions.

Of course, now that Greece owes money to the fund, the IMF cannot legally lend them any more money. So it is pure genius, now Greece's most amicable creditor cannot do anything to save them.

[Slakonian]

But what do you expect. Greece was suffering a worse depression than the United States during the great depression, the IMF now finally admits that the 2012 program was completely wrong headed and would not succeed in achieving debt sustainability, they were one of the few parties seeking to aggressively renegotiate the terms of this program so it's inevitable that a party like them would get voted in. I'm not saying Syriza is a great party (I'm centrist, not left wing) but we have to accept the spectacular failure of the 2012 program is partially responsible for the rise of this radical party in the first place, the Troika must not escape criticism.

Also, Syriza had the great merit of NOT being ND or PASOK. Not to justify Syriza's attitudes and strategy during the talks (I think they have performed rather badly, and I would have voted them at the last Greek elections), of course.

As a Greek I totally agree with this statement, Greeks are fed up with the old politcal factions.

[Atelia]

Also, Syriza had the great merit of NOT being ND or PASOK. Not to justify Syriza's attitudes and strategy during the talks (I think they have performed rather badly, and I would have voted them at the last Greek elections), of course.

As a Greek I totally agree with this statement, Greeks are fed up with the old politcal factions.

The fact that I still had family supporting them absolutely astounded me.

[San Lumen]

Greece should default on all its debts and stick it to EU who rammed through the treaty of lisbon without a vote of the people by member countries. Spain, Italy, Portugal and Ireland should have defaulted too or default as well.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Greece should default on all its debts and stick it to EU who rammed through the treaty of lisbon without a vote of the people by member countries. Spain, Italy, Portugal and Ireland should have defaulted too or default as well.

Treaties get rammed through all the time without a popular vote. The Treaty of Lisbon is no different.

[Chessmistress]

But what do you expect. Greece was suffering a worse depression than the United States during the great depression, the IMF now finally admits that the 2012 program was completely wrong headed and would not succeed in achieving debt sustainability, they were one of the few parties seeking to aggressively renegotiate the terms of this program so it's inevitable that a party like them would get voted in. I'm not saying Syriza is a great party (I'm centrist, not left wing) but we have to accept the spectacular failure of the 2012 program is partially responsible for the rise of this radical party in the first place, the Troika must not escape criticism.

An extremely well balanced analysis.

[Risottia]

As a Greek I totally agree with this statement, Greeks are fed up with the old politcal factions.

The fact that I still had family supporting them absolutely astounded me.

If Greeks and Italians think alike - and, from what I get, this is quite often the case - many people vote according their sense of loyalty to their faction, which usually is their family's faction.
Take me as example: I feel bad for not voting for the same party I belonged to (well, I was actually a regional leader thereof!), even if they treated me like shit and basically made me run away. I feel a bit like a turncoat, if you get my drift.

[Risottia]

Greece should default on all its debts and stick it to EU who rammed through the treaty of lisbon without a vote of the people by member countries. Spain, Italy, Portugal and Ireland should have defaulted too or default as well.

Why the fuck should Ireland, Italy, Spain and Portugal default? We've got our debt and deficit back under control through a lot of personal and collective sacrifices.

[Chessmistress]

The fact that I still had family supporting them absolutely astounded me.

If Greeks and Italian think alike - and, from what I get, this is quite often the case - many people vote according their sense of loyalty to their faction, which usually is their family's faction.
Take me as example: I feel bad for not voting for the same party I belonged to (well, I was actually a regional leader thereof!), even if they treated me like shit and basically made me run away. I feel a bit like a turncoat, if you get my drift.

Are you serious?

[Shofercia]

And the Greeks voted "no!" If the Troika wants Greece in the Euro, they should pipe down and figure out a way to get Greece out of the current situation without austerity.

[Minoa]

The magnitude of the debates between contrasting sides on ERT1 does have a tendency to give me a headache at times. If I remember correctly, Greek debates can become very fierce.

[Fremont Forest]

The magnitude of the debates between contrasting sides on ERT1 does have a tendency to give me a headache at times. If I remember correctly, Greek debates can become very fierce.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0meSGIw0QY

[Ashworth-Attwater]

In case you guys are interested...

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-0 ... tsche-bank