Confederate Emblems to be Removed Nationwide.

[The Conez Imperium]

and the white population of the south has continued to believe it is an appropriate symbol, decades after the ending of official racism which should imply that the flag has been seperated from overt displays of racism that it would have been linked to in the 1950's and 1960's.

You can't separate racism and "heritage" from the Confederate flag, it's been forever tarnished with the slavery/racism associated with the Confederate States. I'm sorry but that flag to me will forever be synonymous with KKK and slavery and it will always will be.

I simply disagree that the Confederate flag is an appropriate means of paying respect at a public level.

[Divitaen]

1) History is complicated, the American Civil War is complicated, but what is NOT complicated is what the Confederate States stood for. They wanted the right to own slaves, the right to be free of the trend towards nationwide emancipation. That was the driving point for the secession in the first place. That's why people like Thompson gave speeches about white supremacy to justify and celebrate the Confederate flag's creation. This part is not controversial. All other reasons given only cloud the reality. States' rights? More like a state's right to slavery.

The CSA was racist, I do not dispute that, nor do I dispute the fact that all Western societies in the 19th Century were racist, even if not explicitly outlined in constitutions or political arguments of the time.

2) The US was not a white supremacist nation. It was a nation with slaves, because of the history and culture of the time. That does not mean that the foundation and basis of the US was on slavery and white dominance. The Confederacy is different matter though. The explicit, clear cause of the secession was to avoid having to free and liberate their slaves. The direct history of the Confederacy's foundation was rooted in slavery and white dominance. And at the very least, the US changed. The US wanted to abolish slavery in the end. The Confederacy held out for the right to own slaves even until the bitter end. So the two cannot be compared.

Nonsense. The US was a de facto white supremacist nation until the ending of segregation in all parts of its jurisdiction. White dominance was explicit from the beginning; none of the Founding Fathers would need to say that in public speeches because there was no threat of white supremacy being challenged. However, you only need to read of the outrage at British declarations of emancipation during the American War of Independence to see how important slavery was to the Founding Fathers and their ilk. You only need to read some of the language used in campaign speeches by Republicans and Democrats prior to the Civil War to see how important the maintenance of white supremacy was to both sides in the Civil war.

The US changed its position on slavery when? 1863? Border Unionists had been allowed to maintain their slaves and saw no issues with remaining inside the Union and Lincoln did not make the ending of slavery a war aim until it seemed certain the North would win. Following on from that you well known that there were Confederates calling for the freeing and arming of the slaves in 1865 as a means for survival. The Confederacy held out for its right to maintain slaves until the bitter end because it only lasted for four years. If the USA had disappeared prior to 1863 it would have been a slave state until the bitter end.

3) This is the part I am slightly concerned of. The flag represents the nation, it represents the construct of the whole civilisation, its history and what it stood for. So celebrating the flag means more than celebrating the dead soldiers or citizens, it means celebrating the nation for what it was, a holdout of slave states. Look, let me give you an example. To celebrate dead German soldiers in WWII, you erect a memorial, you don't put the Nazi flag over a Parliament in Berlin. A Nazi flag would be celebrating not just the soldiers but the ideology and the history of Nazi Germany. I apply the same logic to the Confederacy then. Erect a memorial, but burn the flag.

No it doesn’t. I could hang an Irish flag up to celebrate Irish ancestry, it doesn’t mean I endorse the Republic of Irelands stance on abortion or the campaign of terrorism conducted by the IRA, or the murder of prisoners of war by the Irish Free State during the Irish Civil War. You assign far too much power to a flag, as if a flag is responsible for an individual’s act of hate or racism. You're right the flag doesn't need to be at a memorial site, but it is an appropriate means of paying respect if society belives it is, and the white population of the south has continued to believe it is an appropriate symbol, decades after the ending of official racism which should imply that the flag has been seperated from overt displays of racism that it would have been linked to in the 1950's and 1960's.

The difference is that the Confederacy specifically wanted slavery. They were much more racist than other societies in that the very history of its foundation and secession is rooted in the explicit desire to make black people personal property. The North was racist too, sure, but at least they wanted to abolish slavery. The UK had abolished slavery by then too. The point is that the Confederacy wanted to hold out to the bitter end. Their history is marked by a stubborn unwillingness to progress or even let go of slavery, its existence depended on and was contingent upon keeping slaves from being emancipated. That is their legacy. On the contrary, other Western societies eventually moved on. They abolished slavery before the Confederacy ever did, and since then they've only gradually improved in racial equality. The entire basis of the Confederacy's existence is its stubborn resistance to allowing the blacks to be free.

And of course the Founding Fathers had slaves, but the difference is the USA is not rooted in keeping slaves. It was founded on the principle of "no taxation without representation", and eventually the USA abolished slavery. The USA didn't rebel against the UK because they felt blacks weren't being mistreated enough. There was racism in the US but the racism was incidental to the foundation of America, it was never the cause. The Confederacy seceded because they felt blacks weren't being mistreated enough, that the eradication of slavery was terrible and that, specifically, was why they had to form a separate nation. And yes, Lincoln allowed border states to own slaves for pragmatic reasons, because he wanted their support, but the removal of slavery was still the end-goal. The end-goal for the Confederacy was to fight for the right to keep their slaves. We must distinguish between a nation having slaves at a point in history and a nation being founded for the sole purpose of supporting and preserving the institution of slavery.

As for me giving a flag too much power, please answer the question, if I were to wave the Nazi flag over the Parliament in Berlin, do you think that is anti-Semitic? Of course it still is. That is the history and legacy of Nazi Germany.

[Vassenor]

[quote="Divitaen";p="25023285"As for me giving a flag too much power, please answer the question, if I were to wave the Nazi flag over the Parliament in Berlin, do you think that is anti-Semitic? Of course it still is. That is the history and legacy of Nazi Germany.[/quote]

It would also get you arrested for more or less the same reason.

[West Aurelia]

More that needs to be changed: 10 US Army bases are named after Confederate officers. Yes, the US Army names its bases after enemy officers.

[Agritum]

More that needs to be changed: 10 US Army bases are named after Confederate officers. Yes, the US Army names its bases after enemy officers.

I'd change Fort Lee to Fort Thomas.

[Napkiraly]

More that needs to be changed: 10 US Army bases are named after Confederate officers. Yes, the US Army names its bases after enemy officers.

The flag issue is something that needs to be fixed. This is, at the most, just meh.

[Ostroeuropa]

Nations are often founded for terrible reasons, often racist or sectarian ones. The confederacy is no different, except in that it lost the war. However, southern culture and southern pride, as well as the beginnings of the concept of a southern"nation" or "people" are bound up in the flag to some people.
I would say that it's wrong to force them to take down the flag.

When I see the Irish flag, I see a symbol of Irish Ethnic Nationalism and Irredentism, and thus racism. But I seriously doubt that's what Irish people see. Similarly, I'm prepared to think that the confederate flag is used by southerners as a way of expressing southern pride, values, etc.

I think taking down the flag and such is a bad idea.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

This is disgusting. One shooting, much as it doesn't mean guns should be banned, also doesn't mean symbols of state heritage should be removed.

[Gauthier]

This is disgusting. One shooting, much as it doesn't mean guns should be banned, also doesn't mean symbols of state heritage should be removed.

When a symbol of blatant treason and slavery is considered "heritage", there's something wrong with that culture.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

This is disgusting. One shooting, much as it doesn't mean guns should be banned, also doesn't mean symbols of state heritage should be removed.

When a symbol of blatant treason and slavery is considered "heritage", there's something wrong with that culture.

It's not a symbol of slavery, it's a symbol of state pride.

[The Floating Island of the Sleeping God]

Nations are often founded for terrible reasons, often racist or sectarian ones. The confederacy is no different, except in that it lost the war. However, southern culture and southern pride, as well as the beginnings of the concept of a southern"nation" or "people" are bound up in the flag to some people.
I would say that it's wrong to force them to take down the flag.

When I see the Irish flag, I see a symbol of Irish Ethnic Nationalism and Irredentism, and thus racism. But I seriously doubt that's what Irish people see. Similarly, I'm prepared to think that the confederate flag is used by southerners as a way of expressing southern pride, values, etc.

I think taking down the flag and such is a bad idea.

Would you agree that, as an explicit symbol of outright treason for stupid reasons, the flag should not be flown on government property?

When a symbol of blatant treason and slavery is considered "heritage", there's something wrong with that culture.

It's not a symbol of slavery, it's a symbol of state pride.

"The Nazi flag isn't a symbol of racism, it's a symbol of economic rejuvenation."

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Nations are often founded for terrible reasons, often racist or sectarian ones. The confederacy is no different, except in that it lost the war. However, southern culture and southern pride, as well as the beginnings of the concept of a southern"nation" or "people" are bound up in the flag to some people.
I would say that it's wrong to force them to take down the flag.

When I see the Irish flag, I see a symbol of Irish Ethnic Nationalism and Irredentism, and thus racism. But I seriously doubt that's what Irish people see. Similarly, I'm prepared to think that the confederate flag is used by southerners as a way of expressing southern pride, values, etc.

I think taking down the flag and such is a bad idea.

Would you agree that, as an explicit symbol of outright treason for stupid reasons, the flag should not be flown on government property?

It's not a symbol of slavery, it's a symbol of state pride.

"The Nazi flag isn't a symbol of racism, it's a symbol of economic rejuvenation."

States should have the right to leave, so it's not a symbol of treason at all.

[Dyakovo]

I'm being completely serious.

Okay. As you say.

Well this completely goes against what you were asserting before

No, it doesn't. The fact that you think it does just shows your lack of comprehension.

[White Chrobatia]

While I can understand why the South Carolinians would want to have the flag on a public memorial, and perhaps initially through democratic means they placed it there, but while the flag itself doesn't represent slavery, it has connotations that can never be fully rectified.

Private property is where a flag like this belongs, not on public memorials.

[The Floating Island of the Sleeping God]

Would you agree that, as an explicit symbol of outright treason for stupid reasons, the flag should not be flown on government property?

"The Nazi flag isn't a symbol of racism, it's a symbol of economic rejuvenation."

States should have the right to leave, so it's not a symbol of treason at all.

States don't have the right to lay claim to and then fire upon a federal fort when it's being resupplied. Also, states don't have rights, they have powers. States are not people.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

States should have the right to leave, so it's not a symbol of treason at all.

States don't have the right to lay claim to and then fire upon a federal fort when it's being resupplied. Also, states don't have rights, they have powers. States are not people.

If the state wants to leave, and it's gone through democratic proceedings in that state, it should be able to. The Federal fort was resisting that states self-determination.

[White Chrobatia]

States don't have the right to lay claim to and then fire upon a federal fort when it's being resupplied. Also, states don't have rights, they have powers. States are not people.

If the state wants to leave, and it's gone through democratic proceedings in that state, it should be able to. The Federal fort was resisting that states self-determination.

As a non-American looking in, I don't think states (with the exception of Texas) can vote to leave the country, that was the issue that actually sparked the Civil War and was resolved at the end of the conflict.

Though I do think that states should have that ability to keep the central government in check.

[Dyakovo]

Well, it should have stopped being used at the end of The Civil War, but this is progress at least.

Besides, the Confederate flag is rather ugly.

Eh... I actually think it's a more visually appealing flag than the US flag...

[Ifreann]

The removal of the Confederate Flag is unjust, stupid, and ignorant of the true history behind the Army of Tennessee and Army of Northern Virginia, and the Confederate States of America as a whole.

I agree.

Discrimination against Confederates has got to end.

then the room has been discriminated against...

---

More that needs to be changed: 10 US Army bases are named after Confederate officers. Yes, the US Army names its bases after enemy officers.

Fort Bin Laden, anyone?

[Dyakovo]

Well to be fair, the same argument can be made about the Nazi flag, and that one no longer flies in the same way it did in the 30s and 40s.

Some people still fly the Nazi flag, but the same argument can't be used.

See, Germany was offensive, and imperialist, and they also committed one of the worst genocides in history.

But the Confederacy just wanted to defend their land and keep things the way they were.

Completeish opposites.

The bit in blue? Complete Bullshit.

[Heraklea-]

If the state wants to leave, and it's gone through democratic proceedings in that state, it should be able to. The Federal fort was resisting that states self-determination.

As a non-American looking in, I don't think states (with the exception of Texas) can vote to leave the country, that was the issue that actually sparked the Civil War and was resolved at the end of the conflict.

Though I do think that states should have that ability to keep the central government in check.

None of the states (even Texas, despite what they believe) can unilaterally withdraw from the Union. Texas can subdivide up to four times without Federal approval, however.

[West Aurelia]

As a non-American looking in, I don't think states (with the exception of Texas) can vote to leave the country, that was the issue that actually sparked the Civil War and was resolved at the end of the conflict.

Though I do think that states should have that ability to keep the central government in check.

None of the states (even Texas, despite what they believe) can unilaterally withdraw from the Union. Texas can subdivide up to four times without Federal approval, however.

I think it's five times.

[Ifreann]

Some people still fly the Nazi flag, but the same argument can't be used.

See, Germany was offensive, and imperialist, and they also committed one of the worst genocides in history.

But the Confederacy just wanted to defend their land and keep things the way they were.

Completeish opposites.

The bit in blue? Complete Bullshit.

I seem to recall from previous threads that the Confederacy actually had their eyes on lots of other people's land and very much wanted to spread their "peculiar institution" there.

[Heraklea-]

The bit in blue? Complete Bullshit.

I seem to recall from previous threads that the Confederacy actually had their eyes on lots of other people's land and very much wanted to spread their "peculiar institution" there.

Indeed. Prior to the secession and civil war, a number of Southerners led private military expeditions into Central America in order to create new slave states. Had the Confederacy won there is no doubt in my mind that these would have continued under the direct support of the Confederate government.

None of the states (even Texas, despite what they believe) can unilaterally withdraw from the Union. Texas can subdivide up to four times without Federal approval, however.

I think it's five times.

Might be, though my recollection is it is five states=>four subdivisions.

[White Chrobatia]

As a non-American looking in, I don't think states (with the exception of Texas) can vote to leave the country, that was the issue that actually sparked the Civil War and was resolved at the end of the conflict.

Though I do think that states should have that ability to keep the central government in check.

None of the states (even Texas, despite what they believe) can unilaterally withdraw from the Union. Texas can subdivide up to four times without Federal approval, however.

Ah, thanks for the clarification.