Confederate Emblems to be Removed Nationwide.

[Nazi Flower Power]

It doesn't really matter how many gets killed, at the end of the day are the ideals they both have when it comes to race, the same?
And if so apart from the fact that they are two seperate entities in the confines of history, what makes them different. You have to remember, society as a whole groups ideals into one big van, i.e. The West for Democracy, The East for Communism, The Christians for acceptance (sort of) and the Muslims for radicalism, etc, etc.

They were bothe horrible patches in history, but in no way is the Confederacy in any comparable with Nazi Germany. The only thing that can compare is that they both oppressed a group of people. Britian oppressed American colonists but I never hear someone compairing them to Nazis.

Britain wasn't a short-lived regime that dedicated its entire existence to abusing people.

[Nazi Flower Power]

I'm sure most Germans didn't want to massacre jews or invade the USSR. The government still did it, and the symbols of that government and their military is rightfully shunned.

Even Jefferson Davis didn't want to invade the north. It was solely Robert E. Lee's idea.

That's why they invaded Kentucky.

[Tayner]

They were bothe horrible patches in history, but in no way is the Confederacy in any comparable with Nazi Germany. The only thing that can compare is that they both oppressed a group of people. Britian oppressed American colonists but I never hear someone compairing them to Nazis.

Britain wasn't a short-lived regime that dedicated its entire existence to abusing people.

It was an empire who wanted to suppress it's subjects' rights, trough taxes, tarrifs, and mercantilism, and when they stood up for themselves, Britian sent an army to try and stop them.

[Herrebrugh]

I don't know if you are just joking or what but... No they are both going to be around until the First Amendment is struck down(never happening)

Unless you mean on Government Property then neither should be shown...

If you think I am joking, then please take in consideration that an explanation for your statement about joking would be accepted better, very much, thank you.

I am Netherlandic and not from the States, if you want to know.

The problem here is that this flag was flying on US government property. It's not being banned, it's being removed from government property. And also from several Walmart and Sears stores (the first is pretty much a gigantic supermarket, from what I've seen of it; I thought the latter was a furniture store, but I'm not sure).

[Woolzistan]

Yes, take it down.

It should be removed, because the Confederate flag resembles hate, and besides. Why would you have a Confederate Flag at a US Memorial?

Meh, whilst you're at it you had better take down the US Flag, I mean all those slaves that were transported and kept in captivity under the star and stripes. And you know, segregation in northern and border states and all those pictures of the KKK with the stars and stripes from the 1920's, all those legally awkward wars that have been fought under the US Flag, pretty hateful symbol I hope you'll agree?

In fact in my own country we should probably take down the Union Flag from all public because, you know, it represents hate and centuries of imperialism, colonialism, racism etc, heck the Spanish, French, Dutch, Belgians, Italians, Australians and all the other countries with a history of imperialism, colonialism or racism should take their national flags down ASAP!

[Kisinger]

If you think I am joking, then please take in consideration that an explanation for your statement about joking would be accepted better, very much, thank you.

I am Netherlandic and not from the States, if you want to know.

The problem here is that this flag was flying on US government property. It's not being banned, it's being removed from government property. And also from several Walmart and Sears stores (the first is pretty much a gigantic supermarket, from what I've seen of it; I thought the latter was a furniture store, but I'm not sure).

Sears is a wonderful place! It's a hardware store :3

[Nazi Flower Power]

1st amendment says it can't be banned from use by private individuals.

Ya, I know.

The Confederate flag still isn't a good symbol to have in a country.

That's why I don't have one. Well, that and because it would be weird to fly one in Massachusetts. Can I rename my state please? I keep making typos when I try to type it quickly.

[Herrebrugh]

The problem here is that this flag was flying on US government property. It's not being banned, it's being removed from government property. And also from several Walmart and Sears stores (the first is pretty much a gigantic supermarket, from what I've seen of it; I thought the latter was a furniture store, but I'm not sure).

Sears is a wonderful place! It's a hardware store :3

Hardware? I only know it from Extreme Home Makeover (which I think is sponsored by it; and also, quite frankly, an awful show >.>), I swear they always got furniture from them.

[Kisinger]

Sears is a wonderful place! It's a hardware store :3

Hardware? I only know it from Extreme Home Makeover (which I think is sponsored by it; and also, quite frankly, an awful show >.>), I swear they always got furniture from them.

I'd prefer to stay on topic but they do offer a variety of services regarding remodeling but, overall I only go there occasionally to buy new tools :3

[Divitaen]

I just cannot believe the Confederate flag is even a matter of debate. How is it even contentious that the flag is a symbol of racism and slavery? Why else was the Confederacy even erected in the first place if not to protect states from emancipation and liberation? This shouldn't be controversial. William T. Thompson himself described the establishment of the Stainless Banner, he called it the fight to "maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race". The Confederate flag is a despicable rag. It ought to be publicly burned and its ashes scattered. If a state government does anything to the flag, it ought to be desecration and not veneration.

[Woolzistan]

Britain wasn't a short-lived regime that dedicated its entire existence to abusing people.

It was an empire who wanted to suppress it's subjects' rights, trough taxes, tarrifs, and mercantilism, and when they stood up for themselves, Britian sent an army to try and stop them.

Lol, sounds like what the USA did to the Confederate States of America (even the monstrous Redcoats didn't conduct quite as aggressive a campaign as the Yankees in destroying civilian infrastructure).

Oh and I am sure I read that the Boston Tea Party was a protest by smugglers against a cut in Tea Duties, crazy eh?

[Nazi Flower Power]

Britain wasn't a short-lived regime that dedicated its entire existence to abusing people.

It was an empire who wanted to suppress it's subjects' rights, trough taxes, tarrifs, and mercantilism, and when they stood up for themselves, Britian sent an army to try and stop them.

Britain has done a lot of things, some of them good and others bad; and considering it is still around, it has time to do a lot more. It has let go the majority of its colonies and recognized their independence, and it left most of them in decent condition. The CSA and the 3rd Reich don't have that additional history of cleaning up their act and moving on to other things besides waging war and committing crimes against humanity.

[The Conez Imperium]

I just cannot believe the Confederate flag is even a matter of debate. How is it even contentious that the flag is a symbol of racism and slavery? Why else was the Confederacy even erected in the first place if not to protect states from emancipation and liberation? This shouldn't be controversial. William T. Thompson himself described the establishment of the Stainless Banner, he called it the fight to "maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race". The Confederate flag is a despicable rag. It ought to be publicly burned and its ashes scattered. If a state government does anything to the flag, it ought to be desecration and not veneration.

[Woolzistan]

I just cannot believe the Confederate flag is even a matter of debate. How is it even contentious that the flag is a symbol of racism and slavery? Why else was the Confederacy even erected in the first place if not to protect states from emancipation and liberation? This shouldn't be controversial.

But it is controversial, which suggests that the history isn’t as clear cut as you put it. Hate speech is bad, but is it worse than suppressing freedom of speech?

William T. Thompson himself described the establishment of the Stainless Banner, he called it the fight to "maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race".

Ok, so the Founding Fathers, white supremacists or multicultural progressives? My understanding of history and the US Constitution is that they created a state which was implicitly if not explicitly, white supremacist in construct and design. Does that destroy their reputation and completely undermine the validity of the Stars and Stripes or other symbols associated with the United States of America?

The Confederate flag is a despicable rag. It ought to be publicly burned and its ashes scattered. If a state government does anything to the flag, it ought to be desecration and not veneration.

A lot of brave men died or were maimed fighting for the flags of the Confederacy, including the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. The cause they fought for was wrong, but they deserve to be respected, and their descendents should have the ability to celebrate and respect their struggle between 1861-1865.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Sears is a wonderful place! It's a hardware store :3

Hardware? I only know it from Extreme Home Makeover (which I think is sponsored by it; and also, quite frankly, an awful show >.>), I swear they always got furniture from them.

They have a wide variety of things. They do have some home furnishings and hardware, but I mostly went there to buy clothes.

[Divitaen]

I just cannot believe the Confederate flag is even a matter of debate. How is it even contentious that the flag is a symbol of racism and slavery? Why else was the Confederacy even erected in the first place if not to protect states from emancipation and liberation? This shouldn't be controversial.

But it is controversial, which suggests that the history isn’t as clear cut as you put it. Hate speech is bad, but is it worse than suppressing freedom of speech?

William T. Thompson himself described the establishment of the Stainless Banner, he called it the fight to "maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race".

Ok, so the Founding Fathers, white supremacists or multicultural progressives? My understanding of history and the US Constitution is that they created a state which was implicitly if not explicitly, white supremacist in construct and design. Does that destroy their reputation and completely undermine the validity of the Stars and Stripes or other symbols associated with the United States of America?

The Confederate flag is a despicable rag. It ought to be publicly burned and its ashes scattered. If a state government does anything to the flag, it ought to be desecration and not veneration.

A lot of brave men died or were maimed fighting for the flags of the Confederacy, including the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. The cause they fought for was wrong, but they deserve to be respected, and their descendents should have the ability to celebrate and respect their struggle between 1861-1865.

1) History is complicated, the American Civil War is complicated, but what is NOT complicated is what the Confederate States stood for. They wanted the right to own slaves, the right to be free of the trend towards nationwide emancipation. That was the driving point for the secession in the first place. That's why people like Thompson gave speeches about white supremacy to justify and celebrate the Confederate flag's creation. This part is not controversial. All other reasons given only cloud the reality. States' rights? More like a state's right to slavery.

2) The US was not a white supremacist nation. It was a nation with slaves, because of the history and culture of the time. That does not mean that the foundation and basis of the US was on slavery and white dominance. The Confederacy is different matter though. The explicit, clear cause of the secession was to avoid having to free and liberate their slaves. The direct history of the Confederacy's foundation was rooted in slavery and white dominance. And at the very least, the US changed. The US wanted to abolish slavery in the end. The Confederacy held out for the right to own slaves even until the bitter end. So the two cannot be compared.

3) This is the part I am slightly concerned of. The flag represents the nation, it represents the construct of the whole civilisation, its history and what it stood for. So celebrating the flag means more than celebrating the dead soldiers or citizens, it means celebrating the nation for what it was, a holdout of slave states. Look, let me give you an example. To celebrate dead German soldiers in WWII, you erect a memorial, you don't put the Nazi flag over a Parliament in Berlin. A Nazi flag would be celebrating not just the soldiers but the ideology and the history of Nazi Germany. I apply the same logic to the Confederacy then. Erect a memorial, but burn the flag.

[Divitaen]

256.051 Improper use or mutilation of state or Confederate flag or emblem prohibited.—
(1) It shall be unlawful for any person, firm, or corporation to copy, print, publish, or otherwise use the flag or state emblem of Florida, or the flag or emblem of the Confederate States, or any flag or emblem used by the Confederate States or the military or naval forces of the Confederate States at any time within the years 1860 to 1865, both inclusive, for the purpose of advertising, selling, or promoting the sale of any article of merchandise whatever within this state.

(2) It shall also be unlawful for any person, firm, or corporation to mutilate, deface, defile, or contemptuously abuse the flag or emblem of Florida or the flag or emblem of the Confederate States by any act whatever.

(3) Nothing in this section shall be construed to prevent the use of any flag, standard, color, shield, ensign, or other insignia of Florida or of the Confederate States for decorative or patriotic purposes.
History.—ss. 1, 2, 3, ch. 61-375; s. 5, ch. 91-221.

http://archive.flsenate.gov/Statutes/In ... 6.051.html

Is that still in force? I thought Texas v. Johnson nullified such laws.

Also, so much for the hypocritical Southern excuse of "freedom of speech". Its not free speech if you can't burn the Confederate flag either.

[Nazi Flower Power]

256.051 Improper use or mutilation of state or Confederate flag or emblem prohibited.—
(1) It shall be unlawful for any person, firm, or corporation to copy, print, publish, or otherwise use the flag or state emblem of Florida, or the flag or emblem of the Confederate States, or any flag or emblem used by the Confederate States or the military or naval forces of the Confederate States at any time within the years 1860 to 1865, both inclusive, for the purpose of advertising, selling, or promoting the sale of any article of merchandise whatever within this state.

(2) It shall also be unlawful for any person, firm, or corporation to mutilate, deface, defile, or contemptuously abuse the flag or emblem of Florida or the flag or emblem of the Confederate States by any act whatever.

(3) Nothing in this section shall be construed to prevent the use of any flag, standard, color, shield, ensign, or other insignia of Florida or of the Confederate States for decorative or patriotic purposes.
History.—ss. 1, 2, 3, ch. 61-375; s. 5, ch. 91-221.

http://archive.flsenate.gov/Statutes/In ... 6.051.html

That's probably unenforceable.

[The Conez Imperium]

The Confederate flag is a despicable rag. It ought to be publicly burned and its ashes scattered. If a state government does anything to the flag, it ought to be desecration and not veneration.

A lot of brave men died or were maimed fighting for the flags of the Confederacy, including the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. The cause they fought for was wrong, but they deserve to be respected, and their descendents should have the ability to celebrate and respect their struggle between 1861-1865.

We can respect them without the flag.

[West Aurelia]

But it is controversial, which suggests that the history isn’t as clear cut as you put it. Hate speech is bad, but is it worse than suppressing freedom of speech?

Freedom of speech doesn't apply to the government.

[Paketa]

Absolutely sickening.

[Tsaraine]

Where is the OP getting the "to be removed nationwide" thing? Unless there's been some kind of major Federal edict I missed - which is what it would take - all we've had is the SC Governor supporting its removal from the state house grounds, Sears and Walmart announcing that they'll no longer sell items bearing the flag, and Obama and Romney tweeting in support of removing the flag - and a tweet does not a Presidential executive order make!

I think right now there's widespread support for the idea of removing the Confederate flag from government property, but it's anyone's guess how far that will percolate through state legislatures.

[West Aurelia]

Where is the OP getting the "to be removed nationwide" thing? Unless there's been some kind of major Federal edict I missed - which is what it would take - all we've had is the SC Governor supporting its removal from the state house grounds, Sears and Walmart announcing that they'll no longer sell items bearing the flag, and Obama and Romney tweeting in support of removing the flag - and a tweet does not a Presidential executive order make!

I think right now there's widespread support for the idea of removing the Confederate flag from government property, but it's anyone's guess how far that will percolate through state legislatures.

A bill has been introduced in the SC Senate as well to remove the flag. There's majority support in both houses, but it doesn't seem that the two-thirds threshold has been reached yet.

[Divitaen]

Absolutely sickening.

What's sickening? That an emblem of horrifying racism and white supremacy will be taken down from being sponsored and funded by the state? If you want to hang it, leave it in your house or your backyard. Don't make it state-backed.

[Woolzistan]

1) History is complicated, the American Civil War is complicated, but what is NOT complicated is what the Confederate States stood for. They wanted the right to own slaves, the right to be free of the trend towards nationwide emancipation. That was the driving point for the secession in the first place. That's why people like Thompson gave speeches about white supremacy to justify and celebrate the Confederate flag's creation. This part is not controversial. All other reasons given only cloud the reality. States' rights? More like a state's right to slavery.

The CSA was racist, I do not dispute that, nor do I dispute the fact that all Western societies in the 19th Century were racist, even if not explicitly outlined in constitutions or political arguments of the time.

2) The US was not a white supremacist nation. It was a nation with slaves, because of the history and culture of the time. That does not mean that the foundation and basis of the US was on slavery and white dominance. The Confederacy is different matter though. The explicit, clear cause of the secession was to avoid having to free and liberate their slaves. The direct history of the Confederacy's foundation was rooted in slavery and white dominance. And at the very least, the US changed. The US wanted to abolish slavery in the end. The Confederacy held out for the right to own slaves even until the bitter end. So the two cannot be compared.

Nonsense. The US was a de facto white supremacist nation until the ending of segregation in all parts of its jurisdiction. White dominance was explicit from the beginning; none of the Founding Fathers would need to say that in public speeches because there was no threat of white supremacy being challenged. However, you only need to read of the outrage at British declarations of emancipation during the American War of Independence to see how important slavery was to the Founding Fathers and their ilk. You only need to read some of the language used in campaign speeches by Republicans and Democrats prior to the Civil War to see how important the maintenance of white supremacy was to both sides in the Civil war.

The US changed its position on slavery when? 1863? Border Unionists had been allowed to maintain their slaves and saw no issues with remaining inside the Union and Lincoln did not make the ending of slavery a war aim until it seemed certain the North would win. Following on from that you well known that there were Confederates calling for the freeing and arming of the slaves in 1865 as a means for survival. The Confederacy held out for its right to maintain slaves until the bitter end because it only lasted for four years. If the USA had disappeared prior to 1863 it would have been a slave state until the bitter end.

3) This is the part I am slightly concerned of. The flag represents the nation, it represents the construct of the whole civilisation, its history and what it stood for. So celebrating the flag means more than celebrating the dead soldiers or citizens, it means celebrating the nation for what it was, a holdout of slave states. Look, let me give you an example. To celebrate dead German soldiers in WWII, you erect a memorial, you don't put the Nazi flag over a Parliament in Berlin. A Nazi flag would be celebrating not just the soldiers but the ideology and the history of Nazi Germany. I apply the same logic to the Confederacy then. Erect a memorial, but burn the flag.

No it doesn’t. I could hang an Irish flag up to celebrate Irish ancestry, it doesn’t mean I endorse the Republic of Irelands stance on abortion or the campaign of terrorism conducted by the IRA, or the murder of prisoners of war by the Irish Free State during the Irish Civil War. You assign far too much power to a flag, as if a flag is responsible for an individual’s act of hate or racism. You're right the flag doesn't need to be at a memorial site, but it is an appropriate means of paying respect if society belives it is, and the white population of the south has continued to believe it is an appropriate symbol, decades after the ending of official racism which should imply that the flag has been seperated from overt displays of racism that it would have been linked to in the 1950's and 1960's.