Confederate Emblems to be Removed Nationwide.

[Tayner]

Nationwide, people are trying to remove the Confederate flag. Walmart and Sears stopped selling them, and the Mississippi house speaker is calling for a removal of the Confederate battle flag from their state flag.

Doesn't sound like bullshit to me.

1) One flag is being removed. Walmart and Sears are making the decision as private entities to stop adding to the pool of confederate flags.
2) You make it sound like ALL flags are being removed everywhere in the US.
3) The Confederate battle flag is not the only Confederate emblem.

One flag is being removed from state grounds, another state flag is going to be altered, and stores are stopping the sale of the flag. If you want me to edit it so it sounds clearer I will.

[Nazi Flower Power]

It is an interesting subject, though. Lately, I've been reading up on the battle of Hampton Roads for a short story I am writing.

*offers experience in actually having lived there*

I've been able to find what I need for the story.

I visited there when I was a kid, and I wouldn't mind going back sometime since I think they have salvaged more stuff from the Monitor since the last time I was there. When I get my driver's license, I want to take a big Civil War geeky road trip to visit a bunch of the battlefields and whatnot, but I live so far north it takes a day just to drive to Gettysburg.

I'm thinking of going to visit Joshua Chamberlain's house since he was awesome and it is much easier to get to than any of the other Civil War stuff I am interested in.

[New haven america]

Well to be fair, the same argument can be made about the Nazi flag, and that one no longer flies in the same way it did in the 30s and 40s.

1. Some people still fly the Nazi flag, but the same argument can't be used.

See, Germany was offensive, and imperialist, and they also committed one of the worst genocides in history.

2. But the Confederacy just wanted to defend their land and keep things the way they were.

Completeish opposites.

1. Not in public in Germany, why? Cause it's banned due to its racist meaning. As the Confederate flag should be.
2. And the CSA wanted to use people of another race as slaves. Nope, not bad at all.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

It came to symbolize racism because racist people flew it. Before that it was a flag that the Confederate armies flew in battle. Most of the soldiers didn't even care about slavery, they were just defending their homes. But it's groups like the KKK and other racist people that the flag came to symbolize hate.

And the Confederate army was racist because they were fighting to protect the CSA, who was fighting to protect the right to use people as slaves.

And every member of the Wehrmacht was an anti-Semitic white supremacist, because they fought to protect Nazi Germany.

Every member of the Revolutionary Army was a racist elitist because they fought for a nation based on slavery and oligarchy.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

...they might as well be the same nation.

...I really don't think I'd go that far.

[Wallenburg]

Well to be fair, the same argument can be made about the Nazi flag, and that one no longer flies in the same way it did in the 30s and 40s.

Some people still fly the Nazi flag, but the same argument can't be used.

See, Germany was offensive, and imperialist, and they also committed one of the worst genocides in history.

But the Confederacy just wanted to defend their land and keep things the way they were.

Completeish opposites.

Both were reactionary, militant governments committed to systematic persecution of those not of a certain set of characteristics, claiming to be casting off the chains of oppressors.

[Arumdaum]

Ooh, now how to respond to this and not get warned?

I live in Charleston. Like 6 minutes from downtown, where the shootings happened. I heard about it all, it was on every news channel and on the cover of every paper. My parents told me not to go downtown if I could avoid it, because it would take me longer to get through the traffic than it would to go the long way around the peninsula.

I see that both sides have merit. Some people hate the flag because they believe it represents slavery and hatred. Some respect the flag because their ancestors fought in the war, or some other reason, and they believe it's a piece of history. Me personally? I see it as history. You can't erase what happened. No one's going to forget the awful treatment of slaves in the South. But is it any better to forget it all? It's kind of an overused quote, but "Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it." If we erase all history of the Civil War from the records, what's to prevent a similar occurrence from happening in the future? Heck, what's to prevent it from happening even as we remember?

Humanity learns from its mistakes. We grow through failure. The history of the Confederate South is a mistake, and one that no one ought to see repeated. But if we don't know what happened, how can we know what to look out for? That's why history is kept. The ugliest moments recorded for future generations, so we can learn from what happened.

A response will probably be "We don't need the flag to remember." Yes, you're right. But you also don't need the flag gone to forget. Someone said earlier here that it honors the dead. Someone else said that they deserve no honor. How can one decide what someone else is worth? Deciding someone's worth... that's something slave owners do. It's barbaric. Does that mean if any man judges another, he should not be honored in death, regardless of his accomplishments in life? Of course not. Everyone deserves the chance to be respected. Whether what they did was right or wrong in today's eyes, they fought for what was right. US soldiers killed thousands of civilians in Vietnam and Korea, yet they have memorials in our nation's capital. These men killed their fellow countrymen, men on both sides of the war, who's to say either is unworthy of respect?

Not flying the Confederate flag around a government building isn't equivalent to forgetting about the Civil War.

[Tayner]

Some people still fly the Nazi flag, but the same argument can't be used.

See, Germany was offensive, and imperialist, and they also committed one of the worst genocides in history.

But the Confederacy just wanted to defend their land and keep things the way they were.

Completeish opposites.

Not really, because both fought with the mind set of racial supremacy, and as such aren't different at all. Sure the circumstances were different, however if the mindset was exactly the same then who cares about circumstance, they might as well be the same nation.

That is like comparing the Sons of Liberty to ISIS.

The Confederacy didn't kill 11 million people in the civil war. They didn't even have half as many slaves. Both were horrible events in history, but they were nothing alike otherwise.

[The Nuclear Fist]

Well to be fair, the same argument can be made about the Nazi flag, and that one no longer flies in the same way it did in the 30s and 40s.

Some people still fly the Nazi flag, but the same argument can't be used.

See, Germany was offensive, and imperialist, and they also committed one of the worst genocides in history.

But the Confederacy just wanted to defend their land and keep things the way they were.

Completeish opposites.

The Confeds stole federal property, fired the first shot, and invaded the North. They're hardly innocent defenders. Any flag used by the the Confederate slaver scum should be shunned, doused in gas, and torched.

[The Republic of Pantalleria]

...they might as well be the same nation.

...I really don't think I'd go that far.

Well at the end of the day when two entities have the exact same ideals, they are both rendered indistinguishable in they eyes of not only outsiders, but by those who run and ensure the existence of said entities.

[Tayner]

1. Some people still fly the Nazi flag, but the same argument can't be used.

See, Germany was offensive, and imperialist, and they also committed one of the worst genocides in history.

2. But the Confederacy just wanted to defend their land and keep things the way they were.

Completeish opposites.

1. Not in public in Germany, why? Cause it's banned due to its racist meaning. As the Confederate flag should be.
2. And the CSA wanted to use people of another race as slaves. Nope, not bad at all.

1. Completely legal in other places in the world.

2. I never said that it wasn't bad.

[Infected Mushroom]

I agree.

Discrimination against Confederates has got to end.

There are no Confederates alive to be discriminated against.

there is a neo-confederate movement

[Nazi Flower Power]

Well, you have to remember, that flag came to symbolise racism because of the fact it was used as a symbol for the DEFENSE of slavery.
This symbol was also used by racist groups including the Ku Klux Klan during their "patriotic" lynching sprees.
So yeah it may symbolise the history of the South, but that would mean slavery would be a part of it.

It came to symbolize racism because racist people flew it. Before that it was a flag that the Confederate armies flew in battle. Most of the soldiers didn't even care about slavery, they were just defending their homes. But it's groups like the KKK and other racist people that the flag came to symbolize hate.

No, it was always racist. Look at what the Confederate leaders said about their reasons for seceding. Individual soldiers in any army will be motivated by a variety of things, but that doesn't change what the army is being used for. The CSA used their army to fight for slavery, so that's what the flag stood for, from the very get-go.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

...I really don't think I'd go that far.

Well at the end of the day when two entities have the exact same ideals, they are both rendered indistinguishable in they eyes of not only outsiders, but by those who run and ensure the existence of said entities.

...except they were removed by over half a century and the Atlantic Ocean - the Confederacy was not considered the ISIS or the Nazi Germany of the 1860's in its day. And the Confederacy never committed genocide. They're completely different.

[The Nuclear Fist]

There are no Confederates alive to be discriminated against.

there is a neo-confederate movement

And they should be shunned and ridiculed mercilessly.

[Tayner]

Some people still fly the Nazi flag, but the same argument can't be used.

See, Germany was offensive, and imperialist, and they also committed one of the worst genocides in history.

But the Confederacy just wanted to defend their land and keep things the way they were.

Completeish opposites.

The Confeds stole federal property, fired the first shot, and invaded the North. They're hardly innocent defenders. Any flag used by the the Confederate slaver scum should be shunned, doused in gas, and torched.

Most people in the Confederacy didn't want to invade the north.

[Wallenburg]

...I really don't think I'd go that far.

Well at the end of the day when two entities have the exact same ideals, they are both rendered indistinguishable in they eyes of not only outsiders, but by those who run and ensure the existence of said entities.

So...the kingdoms of Europe used to think they were all one big nation? No.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Tayner, please explain your new topic title, considering it amounts to nothing but bullshit.

Nationwide, people are trying to remove the Confederate flag. Walmart and Sears stopped selling them, and the Mississippi house speaker is calling for a removal of the Confederate battle flag from their state flag.

Doesn't sound like bullshit to me.

Oh noes?

[New haven america]

And the Confederate army was racist because they were fighting to protect the CSA, who was fighting to protect the right to use people as slaves.

And every member of the Wehrmacht was an anti-Semitic white supremacist, because they fought to protect Nazi Germany.

Every member of the Revolutionary Army was a racist elitist because they fought for a nation based on slavery and oligarchy.

I didn't say every member of the Confederate army was racist now, did I?

It's the core ideas of what they were fighting for which made it racist. Sure, not everyone was racist in the Confederate army, but what the army as a majority was fighting for made it racist.

[The Republic of Pantalleria]

Not really, because both fought with the mind set of racial supremacy, and as such aren't different at all. Sure the circumstances were different, however if the mindset was exactly the same then who cares about circumstance, they might as well be the same nation.

That is like comparing the Sons of Liberty to ISIS.

The Confederacy didn't kill 11 million people in the civil war. They didn't even have half as many slaves. Both were horrible events in history, but they were nothing alike otherwise.

It doesn't really matter how many gets killed, at the end of the day are the ideals they both have when it comes to race, the same?
And if so apart from the fact that they are two seperate entities in the confines of history, what makes them different. You have to remember, society as a whole groups ideals into one big van, i.e. The West for Democracy, The East for Communism, The Christians for acceptance (sort of) and the Muslims for radicalism, etc, etc.

[Kisinger]

After hearing worthless banter back and forth with very unconvincing arguments from both sides, I have come to the conclusion that;


1.)The South needs to use the Bonnie Blue instead of old 'Stars and Bars' as a matter for representing their pride
2.)This thread has undoubtedly steered off course more than once and in different directions then expected
3.)Federal and State Grounds should prohibit the use of any emblems, symbols etc. that are not recognized as State/Federal approved symbols
4.)The Flag does need to be taken down for it's original use during the Sixties, and in fact the Battle flag is a horrible way to represent dead men who fought for what they believed in and instead should use one of more respectable imagery to the populace.
5.)And lastly this hopefully spurs more people to look into the Civil war from both sides of the conflict.
*Note: I am really bad with English so sorry for any Grammatical errors.

[Arumdaum]

That is like comparing the Sons of Liberty to ISIS.

The Confederacy didn't kill 11 million people in the civil war. They didn't even have half as many slaves. Both were horrible events in history, but they were nothing alike otherwise.

It doesn't really matter how many gets killed, at the end of the day are the ideals they both have when it comes to race, the same?
And if so apart from the fact that they are two seperate entities in the confines of history, what makes them different. You have to remember, society as a whole groups ideals into one big van, i.e. The West for Democracy, The East for Communism, The Christians for acceptance (sort of) and the Muslims for radicalism, etc, etc.

I think that just might be how you see the world...

[The Nuclear Fist]

The Confeds stole federal property, fired the first shot, and invaded the North. They're hardly innocent defenders. Any flag used by the the Confederate slaver scum should be shunned, doused in gas, and torched.

Most people in the Confederacy didn't want to invade the north.

I'm sure most Germans didn't want to massacre jews or invade the USSR. The government still did it, and the symbols of that government and their military is rightfully shunned.

[The Republic of Pantalleria]

Well at the end of the day when two entities have the exact same ideals, they are both rendered indistinguishable in they eyes of not only outsiders, but by those who run and ensure the existence of said entities.

So...the kingdoms of Europe used to think they were all one big nation? No.

The all used to like to call themselves as a whole Christendom.

[Tayner]

That is like comparing the Sons of Liberty to ISIS.

The Confederacy didn't kill 11 million people in the civil war. They didn't even have half as many slaves. Both were horrible events in history, but they were nothing alike otherwise.

It doesn't really matter how many gets killed, at the end of the day are the ideals they both have when it comes to race, the same?
And if so apart from the fact that they are two seperate entities in the confines of history, what makes them different. You have to remember, society as a whole groups ideals into one big van, i.e. The West for Democracy, The East for Communism, The Christians for acceptance (sort of) and the Muslims for radicalism, etc, etc.

They were bothe horrible patches in history, but in no way is the Confederacy in any comparable with Nazi Germany. The only thing that can compare is that they both oppressed a group of people. Britian oppressed American colonists but I never hear someone compairing them to Nazis.