Ukraine Megathread: Crimea River Part Deux

[Estruia]

The 1800s called. They want their Imperialist bullshit back.

2015 here, it wants to return logic to you.

Right, because the logical course is to continue with the status quo that, while it may help in the short run, will be detrimental to the Ukrainian people. The age of "Spheres of influence" is over. We're advancing, very quickly I might add, into an age of Globalization. When you have a planet that is interconnected like never before, starting imperialist wars for petty reasons and militarily expanding your territory at the sake of your neighbors, is not logical.

[Rusozak]

You can't just straight up invade your neighbor anymore in the globalized modern world, so Russia's doing the next best thing: Staging an uprising of separatists so you can say you're protecting an ally.

[Estruia]

You can't just straight up invade your neighbor anymore in the globalized modern world, so Russia's doing the next best thing: Staging an uprising of separatists so you can say you're protecting an ally.

That's only half true. They still invaded Crimea, which at the time, was still sovereign Ukrainian territory.

[Padnak]

2015 here, it wants to return logic to you.

Right, because the logical course is to continue with the status quo that, while it may help in the short run, will be detrimental to the Ukrainian people. The age of "Spheres of influence" is over. We're advancing, very quickly I might add, into an age of Globalization. When you have a planet that is interconnected like never before, starting imperialist wars for petty reasons and militarily expanding your territory at the sake of your neighbors, is not logical.

What makes you think the age of spheres of influence has ended? Somehow I don't think Russia's just going to stop exerting its power on the weaker countries around it just because its out of fashion to do so...

Its perfectly logical from the Russian governments point of view, even if you look at it at the most basic level; all this meddling in other countries and the nationalism it inspires back home is keeping Putin in power

[Estruia]

Right, because the logical course is to continue with the status quo that, while it may help in the short run, will be detrimental to the Ukrainian people. The age of "Spheres of influence" is over. We're advancing, very quickly I might add, into an age of Globalization. When you have a planet that is interconnected like never before, starting imperialist wars for petty reasons and militarily expanding your territory at the sake of your neighbors, is not logical.

What makes you think the age of spheres of influence has ended? Somehow I don't think Russia's just going to stop exerting its power on the weaker countries around it just because its out of fashion to do so...

Its perfectly logical from the Russian governments point of view, even if you look at it at the most basic level; all this meddling in other countries and the nationalism it inspires back home is keeping Putin in power

Yes, because isolating yourself in a Globalized world is definitely the logical course of action. It may give Putin and all those other crazy Russian Nationalists hard-ons, but it certainly isn't the logical choice.

[Padnak]

Yes, because isolating yourself in a Globalized world is definitely the logical course of action. It may give Putin and all those other crazy Russian Nationalists hard-ons, but it certainly isn't the logical choice.

And yet Russia still remains globally relevant and something of a power. Russia still holds a seat on the security council and still holds sway over a large number of countries along its boarders... they're not exactly isolated

Again though, its a perfectly logical choice from the perspective of the people making it. It makes Putin popular at home and the rest of Europe, and more importantly the other countries within Russia's spear of influence, scared of her while simultaneously not pushing far enough to put Russia completely out of global affairs

For a country looking to regain its reputation as a world power to be scared off its a fairly logical move.

[New Werpland]

Yes, because isolating yourself in a Globalized world is definitely the logical course of action. It may give Putin and all those other crazy Russian Nationalists hard-ons, but it certainly isn't the logical choice.

And yet Russia still remains globally relevant and something of a power. Russia still holds a seat on the security council and still holds sway over a large number of countries along its boarders... they're not exactly isolated

Again though, its a perfectly logical choice from the perspective of the people making it. It makes Putin popular at home and the rest of Europe, and more importantly the other countries within Russia's spear of influence, scared of her while simultaneously not pushing far enough to put Russia completely out of global affairs

For a country looking to regain its reputation as a world power to be scared off its a fairly logical move.

Correct, however how is putin popular in "the rest of Europe".

[Estruia]

Yes, because isolating yourself in a Globalized world is definitely the logical course of action. It may give Putin and all those other crazy Russian Nationalists hard-ons, but it certainly isn't the logical choice.

And yet Russia still remains globally relevant and something of a power. Russia still holds a seat on the security council and still holds sway over a large number of countries along its boarders... they're not exactly isolated

Again though, its a perfectly logical choice from the perspective of the people making it. It makes Putin popular at home and the rest of Europe, and more importantly the other countries within Russia's spear of influence, scared of her while simultaneously not pushing far enough to put Russia completely out of global affairs

For a country looking to regain its reputation as a world power to be scared off its a fairly logical move.

It is globally relevant now. However, continued isolation as a result of Russia's actions will change that. What happens once Putin is dead? What happens when Russia's Strongman is no longer there to wave his dick at the world? What happens when they elect an inept leader, like they have in the past? Russia, or more specifically Putin, isn't thinking long-term. He's only thinking about what will keep his party in power while he's still alive.

[Conserative Morality]

And yet Russia still remains globally relevant and something of a power. Russia still holds a seat on the security council and still holds sway over a large number of countries along its boarders... they're not exactly isolated

A few ex-SSRs. And even Belarus is getting antsy.

Again though, its a perfectly logical choice from the perspective of the people making it. It makes Putin popular at home and the rest of Europe, and more importantly the other countries within Russia's spear of influence, scared of her while simultaneously not pushing far enough to put Russia completely out of global affairs

The rest of Europe?

This the same Europe that has reacted in an increasingly upset manner over Russia's recent conduct? The Europe that includes Poland and the Baltic states asking NATO for reassurances? The Europe that includes Finland and Georgia?

[Bratislavskaya]

The age of "Spheres of influence" is over.

It's really not. Just because most of the world is the same sphere of influence (that of the US) doesn't mean spheres of influence no longer exist.

[Qart chadast]

2015 here, it wants to return logic to you.

Right, because the logical course is to continue with the status quo that, while it may help in the short run, will be detrimental to the Ukrainian people. The age of "Spheres of influence" is over. We're advancing, very quickly I might add, into an age of Globalization. When you have a planet that is interconnected like never before, starting imperialist wars for petty reasons and militarily expanding your territory at the sake of your neighbors, is not logical.

Wether you like it or not, influence still plays a massive role and will continue to play a massive role aslong as there are multiple countires, just deal with it already.

[The Conez Imperium]

The age of "Spheres of influence" is over.

It's really not. Just because most of the world is the same sphere of influence (that of the US) doesn't mean spheres of influence no longer exist.

The spheres of influence have changed. Instead of bullying a country by military force, we know use economic might.

[Qart chadast]

It's really not. Just because most of the world is the same sphere of influence (that of the US) doesn't mean spheres of influence no longer exist.

The spheres of influence have changed. Instead of bullying a country by military force, we know use economic might.

Not really true. The use of economic power to hold influence over a nation has been used for ages. Nothing has changed at this point except from that certain nations want to expand their influence into other nations, which on its turn provokes the one who holds the influence in said nations.

[The Conez Imperium]

The spheres of influence have changed. Instead of bullying a country by military force, we know use economic might.

Nothing has changed at this point except from that certain nations want to expand their influence into other nations

Has that not always been around since the dawn of civilisation?

In any case this can be seen with the economic sanctions against Russia. Simply put, it is far easier to use sanctions and economic controls rather than mobilise the military.

[Qart chadast]

Nothing has changed at this point except from that certain nations want to expand their influence into other nations

Has that not always been around since the dawn of civilisation?

In any case this can be seen with the economic sanctions against Russia. Simply put, it is far easier to use sanctions and economic controls rather than mobilise the military.

True.

Well in this case there isn't an alternative for the US & EU. War with Russia is something that isn't going to happen at any time aslong as they have nukes and so if the US and EU want to expand influence into Russian influenced nations this is all they can do. In the meanwhile we see Russia making it a though price to catch for the EU and US and honestly, in general most of the EU population doesn't give a shit about Ukraine, all they see is the possibility of a bankrupt, corrupt and failed state joining the EU. So far Russia has done good in putting a price tag on it.
As we see aswell Russia is once more protecting its border with a puppet state, which they (understandable) feel the need to as they prefer not to have EU/US puppets on their doorsteps everywhere.

[Bratislavskaya]

It's really not. Just because most of the world is the same sphere of influence (that of the US) doesn't mean spheres of influence no longer exist.

The spheres of influence have changed. Instead of bullying a country by military force, we know use economic might.

Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, and other's all beg to differ.

[Shofercia]

New Ukrainian doctrine says Russia is a military opponent and calls for Ukraine to join NATO.

Agenda for meeting of Rada:

Monday: Write up a report explaining how utterly evil Russia is
Tuesday: Sanction and denounce Russia
Wednesday: ask GazProm for a discount
Thursday: ask Russia to forgive/stall on part of the debt
Friday: fail to understand why Russia isn't listening to them. Repeat next week.

Opponent? Really? Russia whipes the floor with Ukraine within a week or two if it wanted to. Bad call of Kiev in my opinion, not just becouse Russia is just OP compared to Ukraine, but its also not going to contribute to any peace progress in the east.

Considering Russia contributed to the unrest and violence in the East, I don't suspect they would have contributed to peace.

You think that Minsk and Minsk II would've been brokered without Russia's contribution?

They have:

(Image)

(Image)

That doesn't prove the existence of a federal state.

I know that. However, that proves that people are more likely to be accepting of a federal state out of necessity, which is what I was going for.

Not to get all 'edgy teenager' on everything but I find it hilarious how idealistic everyone's being with all this 'Russia should just go away because they started the problem and they don't deserve to do this that and the other' nonsense. No ones willing to actually stand up to Russia to the point were Russia stops doing what its doing and until that changes Russia's the only one in a position to determain if the Ukraine becomes a failed state or not as a result of the violence. They hold the strings of the rebels and the rebels hold the strings of weather or not the Ukraine can actually return to being a functioning country

Refusing to work with either Russia or the rebels, especially refusing to compromise, is naive and stupid. Unless the Ukraine somehow can put itself in a position to bully Russia (which will never happen) it doesn't have much choice but to cave to Russian pressure or become a failed state

The rebels are the ones refusing the compromise. There was a ceasefire but they quickly broke it.

And all those Kievan bombs that landed on residential complexes were just there to what? Promote peace?

2015 here, it wants to return logic to you.

Right, because the logical course is to continue with the status quo that, while it may help in the short run, will be detrimental to the Ukrainian people. The age of "Spheres of influence" is over. We're advancing, very quickly I might add, into an age of Globalization. When you have a planet that is interconnected like never before, starting imperialist wars for petty reasons and militarily expanding your territory at the sake of your neighbors, is not logical.

It's always amusing how the Interventionists bitch about "Spheres of Influence", but then proudly want to impose their own moralities on other countries, by yelling "Age of Globalization is here!" I find that to be 100% hilarious.

[Shofercia]

You can't just straight up invade your neighbor anymore in the globalized modern world, so Russia's doing the next best thing: Staging an uprising of separatists so you can say you're protecting an ally.

That's only half true. They still invaded Crimea, which at the time, was still sovereign Ukrainian territory.

Please list bloodless invasions2 throughout history.

What makes you think the age of spheres of influence has ended? Somehow I don't think Russia's just going to stop exerting its power on the weaker countries around it just because its out of fashion to do so...

Its perfectly logical from the Russian governments point of view, even if you look at it at the most basic level; all this meddling in other countries and the nationalism it inspires back home is keeping Putin in power

Yes, because isolating yourself in a Globalized world is definitely the logical course of action. It may give Putin and all those other crazy Russian Nationalists hard-ons, but it certainly isn't the logical choice.

Right, giving money to a government that wants to fuck you over, on the other hand, is soooo logical

And yet Russia still remains globally relevant and something of a power. Russia still holds a seat on the security council and still holds sway over a large number of countries along its boarders... they're not exactly isolated

Again though, its a perfectly logical choice from the perspective of the people making it. It makes Putin popular at home and the rest of Europe, and more importantly the other countries within Russia's spear of influence, scared of her while simultaneously not pushing far enough to put Russia completely out of global affairs

For a country looking to regain its reputation as a world power to be scared off its a fairly logical move.

Correct, however how is putin popular in "the rest of Europe".

Amazingly enough, most countries in the World aren't even European. The Age of European Colonialism is over.

Has that not always been around since the dawn of civilisation?

In any case this can be seen with the economic sanctions against Russia. Simply put, it is far easier to use sanctions and economic controls rather than mobilise the military.

True.

Well in this case there isn't an alternative for the US & EU. War with Russia is something that isn't going to happen at any time aslong as they have nukes and so if the US and EU want to expand influence into Russian influenced nations this is all they can do. In the meanwhile we see Russia making it a though price to catch for the EU and US and honestly, in general most of the EU population doesn't give a shit about Ukraine, all they see is the possibility of a bankrupt, corrupt and failed state joining the EU. So far Russia has done good in putting a price tag on it.
As we see aswell Russia is once more protecting its border with a puppet state, which they (understandable) feel the need to as they prefer not to have EU/US puppets on their doorsteps everywhere.

Exactly!

The spheres of influence have changed. Instead of bullying a country by military force, we know use economic might.

Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, and other's all beg to differ.

That's another thing, I keep on hearing this crap about aggressive Russia. Putin Defended a Peacekeeping Base, Bloodlessly Annexed a Peninsula, and supported some Rebels in Ukraine. The US invaded Iraq and bombed the shit out of Libya, under the guise of Human Rights. Clinton dropped bombs on Belgrade and almost started WWIII by attacking Russia's VDV column, thankfully the British general in charge was actually informed about something other than fucking interns, and promptly nullified Bill Clinton's stupidity. And yet, it's Russia that's "super-aggressive". And then the press wonders why those who understand the situation think they're a joke. Must be Putin's fault!

[Risottia]

The increasingly authoritarian right-wing Poroshenko cabinet exploits the elections in the contested areas as an excuse to kick impartial journalists out of the country.

The blacklist includes top Russian government officials and separatist leaders in Ukraine's eastern Donbas region.
A number of foreign journalists - including some from the BBC - are also on the list.
In response, BBC's foreign editor Andrew Roy said: "This is a shameful attack on media freedom. These sanctions are completely inappropriate and inexplicable measures to take against BBC journalists who are reporting the situation in Ukraine impartially and objectively and we call on the Ukrainian government to remove their names from this list immediately."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34275394

Guess Poroshenko has got something to hide of he treats British reporters just as he treats Russian top-brass.

[Bratislavskaya]

The increasingly authoritarian right-wing Poroshenko cabinet exploits the elections in the contested areas as an excuse to kick impartial journalists out of the country.

The blacklist includes top Russian government officials and separatist leaders in Ukraine's eastern Donbas region.
A number of foreign journalists - including some from the BBC - are also on the list.
In response, BBC's foreign editor Andrew Roy said: "This is a shameful attack on media freedom. These sanctions are completely inappropriate and inexplicable measures to take against BBC journalists who are reporting the situation in Ukraine impartially and objectively and we call on the Ukrainian government to remove their names from this list immediately."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34275394

Guess Poroshenko has got something to hide of he treats British reporters just as he treats Russian top-brass.

But why would free democratic Ukraine do that?

[Shofercia]

New Ukrainian doctrine says Russia is a military opponent and calls for Ukraine to join NATO.

Idiots. They're trying to get Crimea back by starting WWIII in their own backyard.

Doesn't matter, peace will now be farther away then ever. Aside from that Ukraine doesn't have any friends, or at least none who contributed to peace. In the end they've got no choice, they either work with Russia or they will become a failed state like Georgia and Moldova where eventually Russia remains in charge of large parts of the country and with heavy influence over the rest.
Ukraine just fails to see that they cannot become a proper state without Russia, this move only confirms that.

The 1800s called. They want their Imperialist bullshit back.

You do realize that the biggest Imperialist War was started in the 20th century, not the 1800s, right? If you're going to lob nonsensical bullshit, at least get the timeline right, otherwise that's just embarrassing all around.

They have:

(Image)

(Image)

That doesn't prove the existence of a federal state.

But it proves that Ukraine can only be governed as a Federal State, otherwise it'll dissolve into even more pieces.

Not to get all 'edgy teenager' on everything but I find it hilarious how idealistic everyone's being with all this 'Russia should just go away because they started the problem and they don't deserve to do this that and the other' nonsense. No ones willing to actually stand up to Russia to the point were Russia stops doing what its doing and until that changes Russia's the only one in a position to determain if the Ukraine becomes a failed state or not as a result of the violence. They hold the strings of the rebels and the rebels hold the strings of weather or not the Ukraine can actually return to being a functioning country

Refusing to work with either Russia or the rebels, especially refusing to compromise, is naive and stupid. Unless the Ukraine somehow can put itself in a position to bully Russia (which will never happen) it doesn't have much choice but to cave to Russian pressure or become a failed state

The rebels are the ones refusing the compromise. There was a ceasefire but they quickly broke it.

Generally people might be angry with you after you shell their schools and hospitals, even if you later say that said shelling was "accidental".

The rebels are the ones refusing the compromise. There was a ceasefire but they quickly broke it.

And not to mention the oh so minor mishap of (accidentally) SHOOTING DOWN AN AIRLINER!?

Oh, by all means bring up MH-17, you've done so quite often in this thread.

2015 here, it wants to return logic to you.

Right, because the logical course is to continue with the status quo that, while it may help in the short run, will be detrimental to the Ukrainian people. The age of "Spheres of influence" is over. We're advancing, very quickly I might add, into an age of Globalization. When you have a planet that is interconnected like never before, starting imperialist wars for petty reasons and militarily expanding your territory at the sake of your neighbors, is not logical.

Yes, we are advancing into the Age of Globalization, if by that you mean the rise of local nationalist parties in most places in Europe. Good job pairing austerity with illegal immigration, way to go!

[Shofercia]

You can't just straight up invade your neighbor anymore in the globalized modern world, so Russia's doing the next best thing: Staging an uprising of separatists so you can say you're protecting an ally.

That's only half true. They still invaded Crimea, which at the time, was still sovereign Ukrainian territory.

The Russians Liberated Crimea. Invading tends to imply that the people there don't want you, not that 80%*+ are thankful you're there.

What makes you think the age of spheres of influence has ended? Somehow I don't think Russia's just going to stop exerting its power on the weaker countries around it just because its out of fashion to do so...

Its perfectly logical from the Russian governments point of view, even if you look at it at the most basic level; all this meddling in other countries and the nationalism it inspires back home is keeping Putin in power

Yes, because isolating yourself in a Globalized world is definitely the logical course of action. It may give Putin and all those other crazy Russian Nationalists hard-ons, but it certainly isn't the logical choice.

Russia isn't isolated. If Russia was isolated, you'd have a lot more countries than NATO members, countries where the US has military bases, and a few others still thinking "Rule Murika", actually sanctioning Russia. If Russia was truly isolated, sanctions wouldn't be a laughing matter, and the date wouldn't be the most annoying thing about them.

And yet Russia still remains globally relevant and something of a power. Russia still holds a seat on the security council and still holds sway over a large number of countries along its boarders... they're not exactly isolated

A few ex-SSRs. And even Belarus is getting antsy.

Right, don't mind the SCO there, it's really just a giant reality show project by Borat. BRICS too. Oh, and Latin America. And I heard the Russian are in Syria too, fighting ISIS, and perhaps FSA. So yeah, Russia is isolated, if by isolated you mean that some NATO states are angry at it.

rest of Europe?

This the same Europe that has reacted in an increasingly upset manner over Russia's recent conduct? The Europe that includes Poland and the Baltic states asking NATO for reassurances? The Europe that includes Finland and Georgia?

The same Baltics that refuse to spend what America spends on the military? The same Poland for which Russia is a bogeyman, ever since Csar Alexander the Idiot listened to Csartoriski? Puh-lease. You see, the parties that have a plurality in both Latvia and Estonia, want to work with Russia. The other coalition fucked up the demography of the countries, which means that the economy isn't going to be doing well soonish. And when your economy blows, you need a bogeyman, hence Russia. The Baltics and Poland have been anti-Russian since the fall of the USSR, way before Putin came to power.

It's really not. Just because most of the world is the same sphere of influence (that of the US) doesn't mean spheres of influence no longer exist.

The spheres of influence have changed. Instead of bullying a country by military force, we know use economic might.

I wasn't aware that Khadaffi and Saddam were taken down by economic might.

[Constantinopolis]

Right, because the logical course is to continue with the status quo that, while it may help in the short run, will be detrimental to the Ukrainian people.

You know what's detrimental to the Ukrainian people?

The brutal austerity pushed by the EU and pro-EU forces within Ukraine. That's what's detrimental to the Ukrainian people.

[Geilinor]

Right, because the logical course is to continue with the status quo that, while it may help in the short run, will be detrimental to the Ukrainian people.

You know what's detrimental to the Ukrainian people?

The brutal austerity pushed by the EU and pro-EU forces within Ukraine. That's what's detrimental to the Ukrainian people.

So is taking Crimea and promoting war.

[Shofercia]

And in even more hilarious news, Ukraine sanctions Russia!

https://www.rt.com/business/315693-ukra ... sanctions/

Ukraine sanctions 25 Russian airlines, including 2 which don't exist

As long as we're sanctioning non existent things, I hereby sanction all Por-por-poros-poproshayka-poroshenko products from California. Feel the might!

Ukrainian sanctions also affect 28 Russian banks, including Gazprombank and Rosselkhozbank, but do not affect Sberbank, VTB and Vnesheconombank which have subsidiaries in Ukraine. The black list also includes four banks that have lost their licenses to operate in Russia.

Interestingly enough, Ukraine did not sanction GazProm. That's disappointing. Although Saakashvili cheered up his fellow Ukrainians, but comparing Ukraine's economy to Gabon. Well, we certainly live in an age of Globalization, an African country is just as wealthy as a European one! Fun times ahead!

Also, how'd the Russian military get all the way to Syria? I thought the Russian military was being slaughtered in Ukraine by thousands, the Western Press said so! And now they're in Syria? Ahhh, the power of believing in your own propaganda, although that might be a bummer, occasionally.