Ukraine Megathread: Crimea River Part Deux

[Shofercia]

It's already basically like that. London basically rules the rest of the UK.

Not really: http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/visit ... 12506.aspx

Devolution is the transfer of powers from a central to a regional authority. The Scottish Parliament at Holyrood can pass laws on devolved matters – in general, those affecting most aspects of day-to-day life in Scotland. The UK Parliament at Westminster can pass laws on reserved matters – in general, those with a UK-wide or international impact.

The following are Devolved Powers:

agriculture, forestry and fisheries
education and training
environment
health and social services
housing
law and order
local government
sport and the arts
tourism and economic development
many aspects of transport

Similarly, in the US, DC cannot impose property tax on Californians. They might want to. Really, really want to. But they cannot. They cannot impose sales tax either. Interestingly enough in areas where we don't have DC involvement, we tend to do better as a state. And I'm not sure if they have to, or not, but they generally let us run our environmental standards too.

[Estruia]

It's already basically like that. London basically rules the rest of the UK.

Not really: http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/visit ... 12506.aspx

Devolution is the transfer of powers from a central to a regional authority. The Scottish Parliament at Holyrood can pass laws on devolved matters – in general, those affecting most aspects of day-to-day life in Scotland. The UK Parliament at Westminster can pass laws on reserved matters – in general, those with a UK-wide or international impact.

The following are Devolved Powers:

agriculture, forestry and fisheries
education and training
environment
health and social services
housing
law and order
local government
sport and the arts
tourism and economic development
many aspects of transport

Similarly, in the US, DC cannot impose property tax on Californians. They might want to. Really, really want to. But they cannot. They cannot impose sales tax either. Interestingly enough in areas where we don't have DC involvement, we tend to do better as a state. And I'm not sure if they have to, or not, but they generally let us run our environmental standards too.

Take a look at what CF said.

[Shofercia]

Thing is, Ukraine can no longer survive as a unitary state. There's too much divisions between the four Ukraines, for that to occur. It'd be like forcing Scotland or Wales to adhere to every single law passed by London, and only London, on London's whim.

Well, that sort of happens anyway. Scotland doesn't actually have full legislative control over itself and Westminster can actually amend what legislation can be passed and extend it's influence over it. Wales, believe it or not, has more legislative power than Scotland does, as the National Assembly of Wales can actually pass legislation without consulting Westminster.

Some legislation. Not all of it.

From Wikidorkia: During the Euromaidan protests, between November 2013 and February 2014, Poroshenko actively supported the protest, including with financial support.

Sorry, my mistake on the language; I should've said "came to power as a result of a coup that he funded", instead of "through the coup".

I'm fairly sure he wasn't the only one that funded the protests.

And? That's like saying "X wasn't the only one who caused the stock market crash!" I'm still not going to be sympathetic to X.

Take a look at what CF said.

Just did.

Also, to expand on this point a bit: if DC decided to force us, (Californians,) to pay property taxes, you'd see a shitstorm brewing really, really, really fast.

[Costa Fierro]

And? That's like saying "X wasn't the only one who caused the stock market crash!" I'm still not going to be sympathetic to X.

But you have to admit, it is progress.

Also, to expand on this point a bit: if DC decided to force us, (Californians,) to pay property taxes, you'd see a shitstorm brewing really, really, really fast.

Americans have grown up with this whole idea of federalism and state's rights. Ukrainians haven't. That's why it's going to be a necessary but difficult transition.

[Shofercia]

And? That's like saying "X wasn't the only one who caused the stock market crash!" I'm still not going to be sympathetic to X.

But you have to admit, it is progress.

Not really. He was part of the reason why Ukraine's economy is shitfucked, and he hoped to benefit from it. He ain't getting my sympathy. Period.

Also, to expand on this point a bit: if DC decided to force us, (Californians,) to pay property taxes, you'd see a shitstorm brewing really, really, really fast.

Americans have grown up with this whole idea of federalism and state's rights. Ukrainians haven't. That's why it's going to be a necessary but difficult transition.

They have:

And a map:



And a description:

“Ukraine was and is extremely heterogeneous. It consisted of five distinct areas. One is the East and South, where most of industry is, which never spoke Ukrainian and never will. I was born in the West, in Lvov, and my parents moved to the East (Lugansk, close to my mother’s birthplace) when I was about six. The Ukrainian teacher in school loved me because I was the only kid in class who could speak proper Ukrainian. Western Ukraine speaks several dialects of Ukrainian. Historically, they fought in WWI and WWII on the side of Germany, against Russia. Hence their loyalties. There is central Ukraine, which speaks what is considered literary Ukrainian and is in between in every way. There is also the part to the West of Carpathian Mountains, where people have their own dialect, which is closer to Russian than Ukrainian, and where many speak Hungarian and Romanian. They hate Western Ukrainians as much as Easterners do, due to their history in WWII. There was Crimea, which was not Ukraine at all, where ~80% of people speak Russian.”

The problem is that Kiev's been extremely fucking corrupt. Some infrastructure hasn't been updated since the fall of the USSR, and some even since 1988. With a corrupt central government, the locals, (who have extremely differing views,) turn to the local governments to solve their problems. Crimea set up local institutions before the Polite Men intervened. Donetsk and Lugansk had few issues as well. Ukrainians have had just as much experience with Federalism as Russians, (if not more,) and Russia's Federalist, not Unitary. Ukrainians fought for local rights in the 1990s, but were shut down by Kiev rather quickly, who then collected taxes but didn't improve roads, which probably contributed to the rise of the shadow economy.

The real issue isn't the lack of Federalists in Ukraine, it's corruption. How's Kiev supposed to loot the local treasuries, when Kiev no longer has power over them? Furthermore, Western Ukrainians now think that they're at the top, so they're pushing for Unitary Government to superimpose their whims on Eastern Ukraine. However, when Yanukovich was in power, they were for local autonomy. The US has something similar, just on a smaller scale with Texas: when Bush was president, US armed forces drilled in Texas without issues, but with Obama as president, they're now followed by the Texan National Guard. So it's not Federalism that's lacking; it's one side trying to impose their whims on another. The Right Sector thugs want the Ukrainian Armed Forces to fight their war with Eastern Ukraine for them, and if Eastern Ukraine gets autonomy and the war stops, Right Sector thugs won't get their way, because they can't fight the East on their own. Hence the violence.

[Shofercia]

And in other news, Arsen Avakov compared Oleh Tignyabok to "terrorists", and threatened to remove him from the Rada. And he did it in Russian.

*gets popcorn*

So, NSGers, is anyone cheering for Tignyabok?

!! 125 раненых под Радой - 6 в тяжелом состоянии.. ( апд. 21.20 - увы - один погибший - солдат Нацгвардии -осколочное ранение в сердце) в том числе несколько человек в тяжелом состоянии. Это результат брошенных нескольких взрывных устройств со стороны людей в футболках партии "Свободы", устроившими драку с Нацгвардией под ВР.

Господин Тягнибок, чем "Свобода" отличается от подонков, стреляющих в наших гвардейцев на фронте?!

Никакие политические цели не оправдывают того, что вы совершили сегодня под Радой. Вы привели с собой под Раду не митинг с политическими разногласиями - вы привели подонков, ранивших в том числе более пятнадцати бойцов, прошедших фронт! Четверо бойцов с очень тяжелыми травмами глаз, живота, шеи и ног..

Почему мы должны держать в Киеве боевых ребят? Против Вас и ваших амбиций? Почему солдаты должны получать ранения от провокаторов под вашими знаменами в центре Киева, за 1000 км от фронта!? Ответ -потому, что вы действуйте преступно и недопустимо.

Расследование и наказание будут неотвратимыми. Задержано уже около 30 человек. Будут еще. Гранотометчик пойман - у него изъяты гранаты в том числе граната максимального поражения ф1.

Я прошу у общества полной поддержки максимально жесткого наказания устроивших этот мрак в центре столицы! Если мы все вместе не отреагируем - страна будет погружаться в хаос, под диктовку негодяев с гранатами. Всему есть грань - грань споров и грань дискуссий.. Но бросать гранаты по своим гвардейцам, пришедшем с фронта - это не политика - это антиукраинская война негодяев, как бы они себя не называли!

И еще - как бы не было - порядок в столице будет полным - есть и силы и воля!

** ****

Апд 21.30: ОБВИНЯЮ !

Я прямо обвиняю Олега Тягнибока и его партию "Свобода" в преступлении, которое привело к гибели человека. Боец Нацгвардии, 24 года, мобилизованный из Херсона скончался в госпитале во время операции по поводу ранения осколком гранаты.

Гранату бросил член партии "Свобода" и боец батальона "Січ", находящийся в отпуске.

Я считаю, что это преступление, а не политическая позиция.

Тягнибок привел под Верховную Раду не протестующих, Тягнибок привел бандитов, которые убивали и калечили наших солдат!

Один убитый, 122 раненых, 19 человек на операционных столах, один боец в тяжелой коме и врачи пока не дают прогнозов – это политическая акция протеста?!

Ранения разной степени тяжести получили бойцы Национальной гвардии, подразделений МВД, службы ГСО, спецнац МВД, милиционеры киевских райотделов.

Пострадали журналисты 5 Канала, канала 1+1, французский корреспондент.

Ранен заместитель министра внутренних дел Василий Паскал.

Среди раненых около 20 человек, солдат и офицеров, которые прошли антитеррористическую операцию, награждены государственными наградами, получили досрочные звания – это реальные боевые люди. И мы должны держать их здесь, возле Верховной Рады для того, чтобы они защищали киевлян от чьих-то политических амбиций?

Я не принимаю такой политики! Я не принимаю таких форм политической борьбы!

Я видел оперативное видео, видел фотографии, на которых господин Тягнибок находится рядом со своими сторонниками, вместе с теми, кто избивал наших ребят.

Я не понимаю, почему Украина должна платить такую цену, чтобы Тягнибок и его партия смогли вернуться во власть. Любишь Украину – служи ей, работай для нее! Миллионы настоящих патриотов делают свое дело, занимаются волонтерской работой, рискуют жизнью на фронте – и не приходят с оружием в руках требовать привилегий и наград. Все мы рано или поздно освободим свои кабинеты. Это нормальный и правильный демократический процесс. Это то, ради чего мы стояли на Майдане.

Вы забыли об этом, Олег?

Ваши политические амбиции оказались важнее Украины, господин Тягнибок?

Расследование будет тщательным, а наказание – я надеюсь – неотвратимым.

Я обращаюсь к украинцам и рассчитываю на широкую поддержку общества – в том, чтобы преступники понесли наказание по закону, а политики, организовавшие его – по совести.

Моя функция как министра – обеспечить порядок на улицах и безопасность граждан. Функция общества – не разрешить политикам переходить границы и получать дивиденды от этих преступлений.

Yes, there are actual photos of Tig supporting the riot. I'm impressed with Kiev, they're actually not blaming Putin for this.

[Wormold]

Right Sector terrorist Oleg Sentsov sentenced to twenty years labour

Good decision by the court and good work from the Crimean authorities in averting another Odessa style massacre.

Nicely done! Although you should quote the relevant parts of the articles next time, here, I'll do it for you since you're fairly new:

The North Caucasus District Military Court on Tuesday found Ukrainian filmmaker Oleg Sentsov guilty of conspiracy to commit terrorist attacks in Crimea and sentenced him to 20 years in prison. His accomplice Alexander Kolchenko got ten years in prison... According to investigators, Sentsov set up in Crimea a terrorist group, which set two offices on fire in Simferopol, Crimea’s capital, in the spring of 2014...

That's the least that you should quote, since NSGers are notoriously lazy when it comes to link clicking. Anyways, good find! I wonder, who would have a problem with placing an arson-wielding alleged terrorist behind bars?

Please explain to all of us the evidence linking Mr Sentsov to the acts of arson. Unlike in the court that tried him, confessions and accusations that have been beaten out of people don't count as evidence.

[Costa Fierro]

They have:

(Image)

(Image)

NATO and the EU are not federations in the same sense the US is. I'm talking about internal governance as opposed to joining international organizations.

[Qart chadast]

Those "right sector" has clearly proven itself to be a bunch of neo nazi's and nothing more. And the "government" of Ukraine doesn't do shit against them becouse they brought this "government" to power.

And once more, don't change the subject, we're talking about the neo-nazi's who are currently holding their "protest" in Kiev.
I have never said anything about other neo-nazi's and i won't say anything about them at this point either as it isn't part of the subject i was adressing.

They don't do anything, aside from deploying National Guardsmen to combat Right Sector Protesters/Rioters. So....

Like that is something -_-

[Bratislavskaya]

They don't do anything, aside from deploying National Guardsmen to combat Right Sector Protesters/Rioters. So....

Only now that it's got to the point where these people have outright called for an overthrow of the government. Until it's got to the point where they attacked the Army they have done nothing against them, and in cases have pandered to them.

They haven't banned any or sanctioned any far right organisations for use of "Totalitarian Symbols" (like they did to the Communist Parties), nor have they been banned or sanctioned for promoting "Totalitarian Ideology" (like they did to the Communist Parties), they haven't been stopped from participating in elections for similar reasons (like the Communist Parties), they made the Anniversary of the founding of the UPA (the organisation that did such great things for Ukrainian Independence as killing 60,000 to 100,000 whilst ethnicly cleansing Galacia) a national holiday, and didn't even ban them when they physically attacked the Ukrainian Army.

Until the past few months the Ukrainian Government has done nothing against Neo-Nazi's and other far right groups, even ignoring the laws that they had just introduced that would have meant the sanctioning or banning of a number of them.

[Shofercia]

They have:

(Image)

(Image)

NATO and the EU are not federations in the same sense the US is. I'm talking about internal governance as opposed to joining international organizations.

Those charts are mere examples of how far apart the West and the East truly are. When your states, (oblasts,) are that far apart, a unitary government cannot function, since the victors will seek to superimpose their whims on the rest of the country.

[West Aurelia]

New Ukrainian doctrine says Russia is a military opponent and calls for Ukraine to join NATO.

[Qart chadast]

New Ukrainian doctrine says Russia is a military opponent and calls for Ukraine to join NATO.

Opponent? Really? Russia whipes the floor with Ukraine within a week or two if it wanted to. Bad call of Kiev in my opinion, not just becouse Russia is just OP compared to Ukraine, but its also not going to contribute to any peace progress in the east.

[Estruia]

New Ukrainian doctrine says Russia is a military opponent and calls for Ukraine to join NATO.

Opponent? Really? Russia whipes the floor with Ukraine within a week or two if it wanted to. Bad call of Kiev in my opinion, not just becouse Russia is just OP compared to Ukraine, but its also not going to contribute to any peace progress in the east.

Considering Russia contributed to the unrest and violence in the East, I don't suspect they would have contributed to peace.

[Qart chadast]

Opponent? Really? Russia whipes the floor with Ukraine within a week or two if it wanted to. Bad call of Kiev in my opinion, not just becouse Russia is just OP compared to Ukraine, but its also not going to contribute to any peace progress in the east.

Considering Russia contributed to the unrest and violence in the East, I don't suspect they would have contributed to peace.

Doesn't matter, peace will now be farther away then ever. Aside from that Ukraine doesn't have any friends, or at least none who contributed to peace. In the end they've got no choice, they either work with Russia or they will become a failed state like Georgia and Moldova where eventually Russia remains in charge of large parts of the country and with heavy influence over the rest.
Ukraine just fails to see that they cannot become a proper state without Russia, this move only confirms that.

[The balkens]

Considering Russia contributed to the unrest and violence in the East, I don't suspect they would have contributed to peace.

Doesn't matter, peace will now be farther away then ever. Aside from that Ukraine doesn't have any friends, or at least none who contributed to peace. In the end they've got no choice, they either work with Russia or they will become a failed state like Georgia and Moldova where eventually Russia remains in charge of large parts of the country and with heavy influence over the rest.
Ukraine just fails to see that they cannot become a proper state without Russia, this move only confirms that.

The Russian Imperialist logic strikes again!

[Estruia]

Considering Russia contributed to the unrest and violence in the East, I don't suspect they would have contributed to peace.

Doesn't matter, peace will now be farther away then ever. Aside from that Ukraine doesn't have any friends, or at least none who contributed to peace. In the end they've got no choice, they either work with Russia or they will become a failed state like Georgia and Moldova where eventually Russia remains in charge of large parts of the country and with heavy influence over the rest.
Ukraine just fails to see that they cannot become a proper state without Russia, this move only confirms that.

The 1800s called. They want their Imperialist bullshit back.

[The balkens]

Doesn't matter, peace will now be farther away then ever. Aside from that Ukraine doesn't have any friends, or at least none who contributed to peace. In the end they've got no choice, they either work with Russia or they will become a failed state like Georgia and Moldova where eventually Russia remains in charge of large parts of the country and with heavy influence over the rest.
Ukraine just fails to see that they cannot become a proper state without Russia, this move only confirms that.

The 1800s called. They want their Imperialist bullshit back.

But the sphere of influence!

[Geilinor]

They have:

(Image)

(Image)

That doesn't prove the existence of a federal state.

[Padnak]

Not to get all 'edgy teenager' on everything but I find it hilarious how idealistic everyone's being with all this 'Russia should just go away because they started the problem and they don't deserve to do this that and the other' nonsense. No ones willing to actually stand up to Russia to the point were Russia stops doing what its doing and until that changes Russia's the only one in a position to determain if the Ukraine becomes a failed state or not as a result of the violence. They hold the strings of the rebels and the rebels hold the strings of weather or not the Ukraine can actually return to being a functioning country

Refusing to work with either Russia or the rebels, especially refusing to compromise, is naive and stupid. Unless the Ukraine somehow can put itself in a position to bully Russia (which will never happen) it doesn't have much choice but to cave to Russian pressure or become a failed state

[Geilinor]

Not to get all 'edgy teenager' on everything but I find it hilarious how idealistic everyone's being with all this 'Russia should just go away because they started the problem and they don't deserve to do this that and the other' nonsense. No ones willing to actually stand up to Russia to the point were Russia stops doing what its doing and until that changes Russia's the only one in a position to determain if the Ukraine becomes a failed state or not as a result of the violence. They hold the strings of the rebels and the rebels hold the strings of weather or not the Ukraine can actually return to being a functioning country

Refusing to work with either Russia or the rebels, especially refusing to compromise, is naive and stupid. Unless the Ukraine somehow can put itself in a position to bully Russia (which will never happen) it doesn't have much choice but to cave to Russian pressure or become a failed state

The rebels are the ones refusing the compromise. There was a ceasefire but they quickly broke it.

[The balkens]

Not to get all 'edgy teenager' on everything but I find it hilarious how idealistic everyone's being with all this 'Russia should just go away because they started the problem and they don't deserve to do this that and the other' nonsense. No ones willing to actually stand up to Russia to the point were Russia stops doing what its doing and until that changes Russia's the only one in a position to determain if the Ukraine becomes a failed state or not as a result of the violence. They hold the strings of the rebels and the rebels hold the strings of weather or not the Ukraine can actually return to being a functioning country

Refusing to work with either Russia or the rebels, especially refusing to compromise, is naive and stupid. Unless the Ukraine somehow can put itself in a position to bully Russia (which will never happen) it doesn't have much choice but to cave to Russian pressure or become a failed state

The rebels are the ones refusing the compromise. There was a ceasefire but they quickly broke it.

And not to mention the oh so minor mishap of (accidentally) SHOOTING DOWN AN AIRLINER!?

[Qart chadast]

Not to get all 'edgy teenager' on everything but I find it hilarious how idealistic everyone's being with all this 'Russia should just go away because they started the problem and they don't deserve to do this that and the other' nonsense. No ones willing to actually stand up to Russia to the point were Russia stops doing what its doing and until that changes Russia's the only one in a position to determain if the Ukraine becomes a failed state or not as a result of the violence. They hold the strings of the rebels and the rebels hold the strings of weather or not the Ukraine can actually return to being a functioning country

Refusing to work with either Russia or the rebels, especially refusing to compromise, is naive and stupid. Unless the Ukraine somehow can put itself in a position to bully Russia (which will never happen) it doesn't have much choice but to cave to Russian pressure or become a failed state

Exactly.

[Qart chadast]

Not to get all 'edgy teenager' on everything but I find it hilarious how idealistic everyone's being with all this 'Russia should just go away because they started the problem and they don't deserve to do this that and the other' nonsense. No ones willing to actually stand up to Russia to the point were Russia stops doing what its doing and until that changes Russia's the only one in a position to determain if the Ukraine becomes a failed state or not as a result of the violence. They hold the strings of the rebels and the rebels hold the strings of weather or not the Ukraine can actually return to being a functioning country

Refusing to work with either Russia or the rebels, especially refusing to compromise, is naive and stupid. Unless the Ukraine somehow can put itself in a position to bully Russia (which will never happen) it doesn't have much choice but to cave to Russian pressure or become a failed state

The rebels are the ones refusing the compromise. There was a ceasefire but they quickly broke it.

Proof of that?
As far as i know the ceasefire was broken and both sides blamed eachother with nobody actually knowing who broke it.

[Qart chadast]

Doesn't matter, peace will now be farther away then ever. Aside from that Ukraine doesn't have any friends, or at least none who contributed to peace. In the end they've got no choice, they either work with Russia or they will become a failed state like Georgia and Moldova where eventually Russia remains in charge of large parts of the country and with heavy influence over the rest.
Ukraine just fails to see that they cannot become a proper state without Russia, this move only confirms that.

The 1800s called. They want their Imperialist bullshit back.

2015 here, it wants to return logic to you.