Ukraine Megathread: Crimea River Part Deux

[Novus America]

Bullshitting is not always a good idea. In fact it is usually a bad idea. And how are those lies working? On either side? Not at all.

And the questions about why Russia is backing the rebellion are legitimate questions to ask. And when your officers and soldiers lead a rebellion, you take responsibility for its actions. That is how it works. Russia is responsible for the rebels. When Russia does bad things they deserved to be questioned. Same as for everbody else.

Except, as Shof said, this was only one group within the larger rebellion. It makes no sense to withdraw complete support for all of the rebels on account of a few rebels gaining control of Ukrainian military equipment, mistaking a civilian air plane for a military one, and proceeding to shoot it down.

Supporting the rebellion in the first place is blatantly illegal under international law. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicarag ... ted_States

Yes it is illegal when the U.S. does it too.

Secondly admitting it happened does not neccesitate withdrawing support. The U.S. admitted the U.S. Navy accidentally shot down the Iranian plane. It did not stop supporting the U.S. Navy of course.

[Bojikami]

Except, as Shof said, this was only one group within the larger rebellion. It makes no sense to withdraw complete support for all of the rebels on account of a few rebels gaining control of Ukrainian military equipment, mistaking a civilian air plane for a military one, and proceeding to shoot it down.

Supporting the rebellion in the first place is blatantly illegal under international law. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicarag ... ted_States

Yes it is illegal when the U.S. does it too.

Secondly admitting it happened does not neccesitate withdrawing support. The U.S. admitted the U.S. Navy accidentally shot down the Iranian plane. It did not stop supporting the U.S. Navy of course.

As far as I am concerned, no great power in the world seems to pay any mind to that law.

Except that this not the Russian Army that shot down the plane. These were rebels supported by Russia. Surprising as it may be, sometimes rebels act independent of their supporters, so things like this happen. Also, it is possible the rebels did not inform the Russians of this incident, so it could be possible that the Kremlin simply did not know.

[Geilinor]

Supporting the rebellion in the first place is blatantly illegal under international law. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicarag ... ted_States

Yes it is illegal when the U.S. does it too.

Secondly admitting it happened does not neccesitate withdrawing support. The U.S. admitted the U.S. Navy accidentally shot down the Iranian plane. It did not stop supporting the U.S. Navy of course.

As far as I am concerned, no great power in the world seems to pay any mind to that law.

Except that this not the Russian Army that shot down the plane. These were rebels supported by Russia. Surprising as it may be, sometimes rebels act independent of their supporters, so things like this happen. Also, it is possible the rebels did not inform the Russians of this incident, so it could be possible that the Kremlin simply did not know.

Russia should freeze all aid to rebels until the group responsible identifies itself.

[Novus America]

Supporting the rebellion in the first place is blatantly illegal under international law. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicarag ... ted_States

Yes it is illegal when the U.S. does it too.

Secondly admitting it happened does not neccesitate withdrawing support. The U.S. admitted the U.S. Navy accidentally shot down the Iranian plane. It did not stop supporting the U.S. Navy of course.

As far as I am concerned, no great power in the world seems to pay any mind to that law.

Except that this not the Russian Army that shot down the plane. These were rebels supported by Russia. Surprising as it may be, sometimes rebels act independent of their supporters, so things like this happen. Also, it is possible the rebels did not inform the Russians of this incident, so it could be possible that the Kremlin simply did not know.

But the Kremlin knows now. So it should tell the truth now. How much control the Kremlin had over those rebels we do no know yet. So Russia should just tell the truth.

And just because a lot of people commit murder does not make it ok. What Russia is doing is illegal, and that cannot be denied.

It should be noted the intervention can be permissible in certain extreme cases
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respons ... to_protect

But this is controversial and clearly not applicable here.

[Bojikami]

As far as I am concerned, no great power in the world seems to pay any mind to that law.

Except that this not the Russian Army that shot down the plane. These were rebels supported by Russia. Surprising as it may be, sometimes rebels act independent of their supporters, so things like this happen. Also, it is possible the rebels did not inform the Russians of this incident, so it could be possible that the Kremlin simply did not know.

But the Kremlin knows now. So it should tell the truth now. How much control the Kremlin had over those rebels we do no know yet. So Russia should just tell the truth.

And just because a lot of people commit murder does not make it ok. What Russia is doing is illegal, and that cannot be denied.

It should be noted the intervention can be permissible in certain extreme cases
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respons ... to_protect

But this is controversial and clearly not applicable here.

It would make no sense to 'reveal' what is apparently common knowledge. That being, rebels got a hold of Ukrainian equipment. Shot down plane, mistaking it for a military craft. By the time they had realised this it was far too late.

I have never claimed it was not illegal by standard of international law. I stated that the incident was done by rebels, not by members of Russias armed forces, as in your comparison with the American ship.

[Geilinor]

But the Kremlin knows now. So it should tell the truth now. How much control the Kremlin had over those rebels we do no know yet. So Russia should just tell the truth.

And just because a lot of people commit murder does not make it ok. What Russia is doing is illegal, and that cannot be denied.

It should be noted the intervention can be permissible in certain extreme cases
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respons ... to_protect

But this is controversial and clearly not applicable here.

It would make no sense to 'reveal' what is apparently common knowledge. That being, rebels got a hold of Ukrainian equipment. Shot down plane, mistaking it for a military craft. By the time they had realised this it was far too late.

I have never claimed it was not illegal by standard of international law. I stated that the incident was done by rebels, not by members of Russias armed forces, as in your comparison with the American ship.

Yes, it was done by the rebels, but Russia supports those rebels.

[Bojikami]

It would make no sense to 'reveal' what is apparently common knowledge. That being, rebels got a hold of Ukrainian equipment. Shot down plane, mistaking it for a military craft. By the time they had realised this it was far too late.

I have never claimed it was not illegal by standard of international law. I stated that the incident was done by rebels, not by members of Russias armed forces, as in your comparison with the American ship.

Yes, it was done by the rebels, but Russia supports those rebels.

Russia supports them, yet has no control over what those rebels do.

[Geilinor]

Yes, it was done by the rebels, but Russia supports those rebels.

Russia supports them, yet has no control over what those rebels do.

Russia should try to find the group responsible and stop supporting them.

[United Marxist Nations]

Russia supports them, yet has no control over what those rebels do.

Russia should try to find the group responsible and stop supporting them.

That specific group, under Girkin's command, may be de facto non-existent now.

[Shofercia]

No, because if Russia said that "Rebels accidentally did it" the Western Press would gloriously ask the Russians "why did you give them BUKs?" (even though that never happened,) followed by (why are you still supporting the Rebellion,) even though it was just one group, and so on and so forth. Found those WMDs in Iraq yet? How's Libya, that a thriving democracy? FSA about to rout the ISIS in Syria?

Russia doesn't look guilty to those who actually studied the issue, because bullshitting isn't a crime.

Bullshitting is not always a good idea. In fact it is usually a bad idea. And how are those lies working? On either side? Not at all.

And the questions about why Russia is backing the rebellion are legitimate questions to ask. And when your officers and soldiers lead a rebellion, you take responsibility for its actions. That is how it works. Russia is responsible for the rebels. When Russia does bad things they deserved to be questioned. Same as for everbody else.

No, you're responsible for the Rebel Factions that you support. Otherwise, guess who's rebelling against Assad? That's right, ISIS. And the US is supporting anti-Assad Rebels. Congratulations Novus America, you just made the US the biggest sponsor of terrorism. Or, we can go back to logic, and not hold you responsible for actions of groups that you don't control, and that you have little to no influence with. Take your pick.

As far as I am concerned, no great power in the world seems to pay any mind to that law.

Except that this not the Russian Army that shot down the plane. These were rebels supported by Russia. Surprising as it may be, sometimes rebels act independent of their supporters, so things like this happen. Also, it is possible the rebels did not inform the Russians of this incident, so it could be possible that the Kremlin simply did not know.

Russia should freeze all aid to rebels until the group responsible identifies itself.

And if said group refuses, the Rebels could end up starving to death... yeah, I think I'm going to go with the plan that doesn't involve starvation.

Russia supports them, yet has no control over what those rebels do.

Russia should try to find the group responsible and stop supporting them.

What makes you think that Russia supported them at all? What makes you think that Russia didn't end any support quietly? I'd agree that Russia should stop supporting said group, if Russia actually did. We don't know that.

[Shofercia]

Russia should try to find the group responsible and stop supporting them.

That specific group, under Girkin's command, may be de facto non-existent now.

And you know that it's under Girkin's command, how?

[Dortmundia]

Russia should apologise to the Dutch people for shooting down MH17. The West would not be tolerant to Russia and will never forgive it, unless it does not do it.

[Shofercia]

Russia should apologise to the Dutch people for shooting down MH17. The West would not be tolerant to Russia and will never forgive it, unless it does not do it.

Let's recap:

Someone stupidly redirects MH-17.
Kiev's forces callously leave BUK at the border to be captured.
Locals capture BUKs and accidentally shoot down plane.

Who does Dortmundia blame? That's right, Russia!

[United Marxist Nations]

That specific group, under Girkin's command, may be de facto non-existent now.

And you know that it's under Girkin's command, how?

IIRC, he stated so and took full responsibility, and was subsequently dismissed from his post for such an error, as he should have.

To be clear, this was after he essentially went rogue.

[Geilinor]

And if said group refuses, the Rebels could end up starving to death... yeah, I think I'm going to go with the plan that doesn't involve starvation.

If they don't want to starve, maybe they'll stop fighting. Problem solved.

[Shofercia]

And you know that it's under Girkin's command, how?

IIRC, he stated so and took full responsibility, and was subsequently dismissed from his post for such an error, as he should have.

If that's the case, then he should be tried by either the Dutch or the Malaysian Courts. His choice. Also, considering that he was dismissed by Russia after he tried, (unsuccessfully,) to get the Russian regulars involved, why would they dismiss him again? He was fired and not rehired. So who dismissed him?

"You're fired!"
*shoots someone*
"Ok, now you're double fired!"

[Geilinor]

What makes you think that Russia didn't end any support quietly? I'd agree that Russia should stop supporting said group, if Russia actually did. We don't know that.

What makes you think Russia would have done that? And we do know that Russia has defended the rebels wherever it can.

[Shofercia]

And if said group refuses, the Rebels could end up starving to death... yeah, I think I'm going to go with the plan that doesn't involve starvation.

If they don't want to starve, maybe they'll stop fighting. Problem solved.

Yes, being burned alive is soooo much better... /sarcasm

[United Marxist Nations]

IIRC, he stated so and took full responsibility, and was subsequently dismissed from his post for such an error, as he should have.

If that's the case, then he should be tried by either the Dutch or the Malaysian Courts. His choice. Also, considering that he was dismissed by Russia after he tried, (unsuccessfully,) to get the Russian regulars involved, why would they dismiss him again? He was fired and not rehired. So who dismissed him?

"You're fired!"
*shoots someone*
"Ok, now you're double fired!"

He had already been fired by the Russians, he went rogue and after this incident, rebels dismissed him.

[Shofercia]

What makes you think that Russia didn't end any support quietly? I'd agree that Russia should stop supporting said group, if Russia actually did. We don't know that.

What makes you think Russia would have done that? And we do know that Russia has defended the rebels wherever it can.

Certain factions of Rebels. I didn't see much defense around Mariupol, did you?

[Shofercia]

If that's the case, then he should be tried by either the Dutch or the Malaysian Courts. His choice. Also, considering that he was dismissed by Russia after he tried, (unsuccessfully,) to get the Russian regulars involved, why would they dismiss him again? He was fired and not rehired. So who dismissed him?

"You're fired!"
*shoots someone*
"Ok, now you're double fired!"

He had already been fired by the Russians, he went rogue and after this incident, rebels dismissed him.

Ok, so why isn't he on trial in the Netherlands or in Malaysia? Also, can I get a source for your initial claim?

[Geilinor]

If they don't want to starve, maybe they'll stop fighting. Problem solved.

Yes, being burned alive is soooo much better... /sarcasm

You know my position on that. Ukraine should prosecute those people, but it can't get to them until the war ends.

[Shofercia]

Yes, being burned alive is soooo much better... /sarcasm

You know my position on that. Ukraine should prosecute those people, but it can't get to them until the war ends.

I've seen how Ukraine "prosecutes" in Odessa. No thanks.

[Geilinor]

You know my position on that. Ukraine should prosecute those people, but it can't get to them until the war ends.

I've seen how Ukraine "prosecutes" in Odessa. No thanks.

The government of Ukraine didn't kill those people.

[United Marxist Nations]

He had already been fired by the Russians, he went rogue and after this incident, rebels dismissed him.

Ok, so why isn't he on trial in the Netherlands or in Malaysia? Also, can I get a source for your initial claim?

It was a long time ago, he said what happened in a press conference, I will see if I can find it. I apologize in advance if I fail in this regard.