Ukraine Megathread: Crimea River Part Deux

[Novus America]

Go look at the past threads, we went over how an Su-25 couldn't have shot down the plane more than a few times.

You're also oddly ignoring all the video evidence of a Buk being thrown onto a truck and driven away from the area right after the plane was shot down.

He believes what he wants to see. That's the mind of a Russophile.

He is also peddling mutually exclusive theories. Something he totally does not get. His alleged "evidence" of a Su-25 cannon, Flanker with a missile, and Ukrainian Buk cannot happen together. He talks about "evidence" of an air battle and a Ukranian Buk, AT THE SAME TIME!

The thing about Russian propaganda is it is not even good propaganda. You have to be really delusional to buy it because it contradicts itself. Even some Russian ultra-nationalists here do not buy it. The ones that still retain a degree of independent thought.

But this guy does not care. He will seize on any propaganda that blames Ukraine or the U.S. regardless of consistency.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink

Although most people use the different contradictory beliefs in different social contexts. He is so far gone he does it in the same sentence.

"My "evidence" (Russian propaganda) proves 1+1 equals one, three, four and five. All at the same time! Anything besides two! It cannot be two so it must be something else. Anything else!"

[Chossudovsky]

I guess it shouldn't surprise us, fascists have always been big on youth organisations as part of their indoctrination program. The truly disturbing thing is that the people training these kids to kill Russians were trained and armed by the US.

Well, that's America for you.

I don't think most Americans would support this course of action if they knew the whole truth of it. It is only as a result of Obama's "oppose Russia at any cost, even if it means allying with Nazis" mentality which has been passed on to him from his cold war era CIA mentors.

[New Werpland]

Well, that's America for you.

I don't think most Americans would support this course of action if they knew the whole truth of it. It is only as a result of Obama's "oppose Russia at any cost, even if it means allying with Nazis" mentality which has been passed on to him from his cold war era CIA mentors.

That's why he hasn't done shit to help his "nazi" friends?

[Shofercia]

You think I like the Western media? Have you not read some of my other posts?

I know how you Russophiles love to shit on everything non-Russian, but Western media is better than either Pravda or RT or ITAR-TASS. And yes, I have seen your other posts. Do you know what I see? A hardline nationalist.

Really, so when exactly did I shit on Obama's education reform? California's proposition process? Aiding the Kurds of Kobane? So nice to see you become just like Bush, Geilinor, dividing people into "them" or "us", and then handing out ad hominems. Not surprising though, admitting that Western Press brainwashes people and facing the truth is much harder than ad hominems. Remember kids, only government run press brainwashes, corporate press is totally "fair and balanced," the "most trusted name in news" and 100% "progressive". What I find even more hilarious is that you actually think that Faux News is better than VSIOM. Found Saddam's WMD's yet? When you do, fax me. Oh, and that response wasn't geared at you. Just and FYI.

I know how you Russophiles love to shit on everything non-Russian, but Western media is better than either Pravda or RT or ITAR-TASS. And yes, I have seen your other posts. Do you know what I see? A hardline nationalist.

Getting a western education?

Hilarious.

I actually have one. California's Collegiate System rocks, well, for the most part. Administration's too greedy, hence the tuition increases, but Cali still has one of the best, if not the best, education systems around. According to Geilinor this is "shitting on California's education system". According to reality it's known as "acknowledging the awesomeness of Cali's education system, while criticizing certain malfunctioning aspects of it".

He believes what he wants to see. That's the mind of a Russophile.

I'm Russophile, and I disagree with him. Don't think that we're all borg, that job's already been taken by at least two people here.

I don't think most Americans would support this course of action if they knew the whole truth of it. It is only as a result of Obama's "oppose Russia at any cost, even if it means allying with Nazis" mentality which has been passed on to him from his cold war era CIA mentors.

That's why he hasn't done shit to help his "nazi" friends?

He's helping Yatsenuyk, or rather, US Government is helping Ukraine's Government, despite the latter having Yats as Prime Minister, who "became" Prime Minister after a certain Victoria Nuland made that suggestion.

[Chossudovsky]

I know how you Russophiles love to shit on everything non-Russian, but Western media is better than either Pravda or RT or ITAR-TASS. And yes, I have seen your other posts. Do you know what I see? A hardline nationalist.

Really, so when exactly did I shit on Obama's education reform? California's proposition process? Aiding the Kurds of Kobane? So nice to see you become just like Bush, Geilinor, dividing people into "them" or "us", and then handing out ad hominems. Not surprising though, admitting that Western Press brainwashes people and facing the truth is much harder than ad hominems. Remember kids, only government run press brainwashes, corporate press is totally "fair and balanced," the "most trusted name in news" and 100% "progressive". What I find even more hilarious is that you actually think that Faux News is better than VSIOM. Found Saddam's WMD's yet? When you do, fax me. Oh, and that response wasn't geared at you. Just and FYI.

What I find hilarious is that you accept that the US lied about Iraq and that the media was complicit in creating that lie; if you're smart, you will accept that they did the same thing in Kosovo and in Syria. And yet when they do the exact same thing in Ukraine - present a claim with no evidence, media accepts it unquestionably - suddenly the people questioning this narrative and backing that up with evidence are like climate change deniers!

[The balkens]

Really, so when exactly did I shit on Obama's education reform? California's proposition process? Aiding the Kurds of Kobane? So nice to see you become just like Bush, Geilinor, dividing people into "them" or "us", and then handing out ad hominems. Not surprising though, admitting that Western Press brainwashes people and facing the truth is much harder than ad hominems. Remember kids, only government run press brainwashes, corporate press is totally "fair and balanced," the "most trusted name in news" and 100% "progressive". What I find even more hilarious is that you actually think that Faux News is better than VSIOM. Found Saddam's WMD's yet? When you do, fax me. Oh, and that response wasn't geared at you. Just and FYI.

What I find hilarious is that you accept that the US lied about Iraq and that the media was complicit in creating that lie; if you're smart, you will accept that they did the same thing in Kosovo and in Syria. And yet when they do the exact same thing in Ukraine - present a claim with no evidence, media accepts it unquestionably - suddenly the people questioning this narrative and backing that up with evidence are like climate change deniers!

Kosovo?

[Chossudovsky]

What I find hilarious is that you accept that the US lied about Iraq and that the media was complicit in creating that lie; if you're smart, you will accept that they did the same thing in Kosovo and in Syria. And yet when they do the exact same thing in Ukraine - present a claim with no evidence, media accepts it unquestionably - suddenly the people questioning this narrative and backing that up with evidence are like climate change deniers!

Kosovo?

The southernmost province of Serbia, "liberated" by a terrorist group with NATO support in the 1990s.

[Vassenor]

Kosovo?

The southernmost province of Serbia, "liberated" by a terrorist group with NATO support in the 1990s.

I believe the question was more "what was fabricated to justify that intervention?"

[Shofercia]

Really, so when exactly did I shit on Obama's education reform? California's proposition process? Aiding the Kurds of Kobane? So nice to see you become just like Bush, Geilinor, dividing people into "them" or "us", and then handing out ad hominems. Not surprising though, admitting that Western Press brainwashes people and facing the truth is much harder than ad hominems. Remember kids, only government run press brainwashes, corporate press is totally "fair and balanced," the "most trusted name in news" and 100% "progressive". What I find even more hilarious is that you actually think that Faux News is better than VSIOM. Found Saddam's WMD's yet? When you do, fax me. Oh, and that response wasn't geared at you. Just and FYI.

What I find hilarious is that you accept that the US lied about Iraq and that the media was complicit in creating that lie; if you're smart, you will accept that they did the same thing in Kosovo and in Syria. And yet when they do the exact same thing in Ukraine - present a claim with no evidence, media accepts it unquestionably - suddenly the people questioning this narrative and backing that up with evidence are like climate change deniers!

The US lie is that teh-ubah-ebul Rusha shut down zat jet with BUKs, at ze behest of Darth Ebul Overlord Pootie-Poot thru zingle mindad BORG tewwowists.

I'm saying that it was an accident, and neither Putin, nor Russia, had anything to do with it.

How many times do I have to say that I think it was an accident, before people realize that I think that it was an accident?

[Vassenor]

I'm saying that it was an accident, and neither Putin, nor Russia, had anything to do with it.

How many times do I have to say that I think it was an accident, before people realize that I think that it was an accident?

We've been saying it was a "SAM crew screwed up and shot down the wrong plane" thing since day one. You're preaching to the choir.

[Shofercia]

I'm saying that it was an accident, and neither Putin, nor Russia, had anything to do with it.

How many times do I have to say that I think it was an accident, before people realize that I think that it was an accident?

We've been saying it was a "SAM crew screwed up and shot down the wrong plane" thing since day one. You're preaching to the choir.

The same choir that's been saying that those BUKs were given by to the Rebels by Putin? Because German intel states that they were captured from Kiev's forces, not to mention that it'd be completely illogical for Rebels to take photos with secretly transferred BUKs, since that'd defeat the whole secret element of it. SAM crew weren't the only ones who fucked up.

[Estruia]

What I find hilarious is that you accept that the US lied about Iraq and that the media was complicit in creating that lie; if you're smart, you will accept that they did the same thing in Kosovo and in Syria. And yet when they do the exact same thing in Ukraine - present a claim with no evidence, media accepts it unquestionably - suddenly the people questioning this narrative and backing that up with evidence are like climate change deniers!

The US lie is that teh-ubah-ebul Rusha shut down zat jet with BUKs, at ze behest of Darth Ebul Overlord Pootie-Poot thru zingle mindad BORG tewwowists.

I'm saying that it was an accident, and neither Putin, nor Russia, had anything to do with it.

How many times do I have to say that I think it was an accident, before people realize that I think that it was an accident?

Right, because you're the foremost expert on the matter? I guess that since you say it was an accident, the Universe must bend to your will to make sure it was so? Unless you were there, you can't exactly say it was an accident.

[Padnak]

Although its pretty blindingly obvious it was an accident...

Pro Russian separatists with little formal training operating an advanced missile system accidentally shoot down a civilian air liner they mistake for an enemy transport aircraft doesn't seem to far out there

[The balkens]

Although its pretty blindingly obvious it was an accident...

Pro Russian separatists with little formal training operating an advanced missile system accidentally shoot down a civilian air liner they mistake for an enemy transport aircraft doesn't seem to far out there

But muh SU-25.

[Padnak]

I bet it was actually renegade Serbians

[Novus America]

Although its pretty blindingly obvious it was an accident...

Pro Russian separatists with little formal training operating an advanced missile system accidentally shoot down a civilian air liner they mistake for an enemy transport aircraft doesn't seem to far out there

Yes, this is probably the case. There are recordings of the rebels supporting this.

So why does Russia lie? Why not just come clean?
Lying is what makes Russia look more guilty.

[Costa Fierro]

I don't know if you like the western media but you have certainly bought into their agenda hook, line and sinker.

The difference between you and Shof is the difference between Russia Today and Pravda. Both are towing the government line but at least one tries to actually make attempts at journalism rather than just asking whatever drunkard on the street thinks about Ukraine and spinning a story out of that.

What about all the physical evidence of an air to air engagement?

What evidence would this be?

What about the evidence from the buk manufacturer?

They basically confirmed a BUK missile brought down the Boeing. But what I don't understand is why you seem to think that the aircraft was shot down by another aircraft and also shot down by a BUK missile fired by Ukrainian government forces?

And where exactly is your evidence that it was the rebels?

The rebels had overrun a Ukrainian military base not long before the shoot down of MH17 occurred and had claimed ownership of at least one BUK missile system. Not to mention that the rebel groups had already shot down several aircraft prior to MH17.

They couldn't know at the time that the missile was fired by the Ukrainian military or that it was a deliberate attempt to discredit the rebels by attacking a civilian aircraft.

But why would they celebrate something that they would have known didn't come from their forces?

[Estruia]

Although its pretty blindingly obvious it was an accident...

Pro Russian separatists with little formal training operating an advanced missile system accidentally shoot down a civilian air liner they mistake for an enemy transport aircraft doesn't seem to far out there

My issue with that is that people pretend as if it is somehow excusable or less horrible if it was an accident. Who ever thought it was a good idea to allow halfwits to operate weaponry that they were not trained to use? I thought Russia was supposed to be training these folks? All of those rebels were trained in Russia, and not a single one was taught how to properly operate a SAM? Why did Russia allow them to operate such a system with minimal radar systems and minimal training? That sounds just as irresponsible as pressing the button to launch the missile without knowing who you're firing at.

[Geilinor]

What I find hilarious is that you accept that the US lied about Iraq and that the media was complicit in creating that lie; if you're smart, you will accept that they did the same thing in Kosovo and in Syria. And yet when they do the exact same thing in Ukraine - present a claim with no evidence, media accepts it unquestionably - suddenly the people questioning this narrative and backing that up with evidence are like climate change deniers!

The US lie is that teh-ubah-ebul Rusha shut down zat jet with BUKs, at ze behest of Darth Ebul Overlord Pootie-Poot thru zingle mindad BORG tewwowists.

I'm saying that it was an accident, and neither Putin, nor Russia, had anything to do with it.

How many times do I have to say that I think it was an accident, before people realize that I think that it was an accident?

Even if it was an accident, the world should be able to know which rebel group did it and there should be compensation.

[Shofercia]

The US lie is that teh-ubah-ebul Rusha shut down zat jet with BUKs, at ze behest of Darth Ebul Overlord Pootie-Poot thru zingle mindad BORG tewwowists.

I'm saying that it was an accident, and neither Putin, nor Russia, had anything to do with it.

How many times do I have to say that I think it was an accident, before people realize that I think that it was an accident?

Right, because you're the foremost expert on the matter? I guess that since you say it was an accident, the Universe must bend to your will to make sure it was so? Unless you were there, you can't exactly say it was an accident.

Let's read what that says again, shall we?

How many times do I have to say that I think it was an accident, before people realize that I think that it was an accident?

Now, let's take that apart:

How many times do I have to say that I think it was an accident,
before people realize
that I think
that it was an accident?

I'm not saying that I'm 100% certain it was an accident. I am saying that I'm 100% certain that I've stated I think it's an accident, because I know I said that. Many, many, many times.

I bet it was actually renegade Serbians

Although its pretty blindingly obvious it was an accident...

Pro Russian separatists with little formal training operating an advanced missile system accidentally shoot down a civilian air liner they mistake for an enemy transport aircraft doesn't seem to far out there

Yes, this is probably the case. There are recordings of the rebels supporting this.

So why does Russia lie? Why not just come clean?
Lying is what makes Russia look more guilty.

Why did the US and Company propose another Resolution, when one already existed? The reason is that the current US Administration and the current Russian Administration no likey each other, ergo they both lie to make one another look bad.

Although its pretty blindingly obvious it was an accident...

Pro Russian separatists with little formal training operating an advanced missile system accidentally shoot down a civilian air liner they mistake for an enemy transport aircraft doesn't seem to far out there

My issue with that is that people pretend as if it is somehow excusable or less horrible if it was an accident. Who ever thought it was a good idea to allow halfwits to operate weaponry that they were not trained to use? I thought Russia was supposed to be training these folks? All of those rebels were trained in Russia, and not a single one was taught how to properly operate a SAM? Why did Russia allow them to operate such a system with minimal radar systems and minimal training? That sounds just as irresponsible as pressing the button to launch the missile without knowing who you're firing at.

Amazingly enough, accidentally killing someone is less horrible than deliberately murdering someone. I'm not sure why Kiev's forces thought that it'd be a great idea to place BUKs so close to the action, that some of them ended up being captured. I also don't understand why the fuck Russia would be training the Rebels to use BUKs, since Russia didn't give the Rebels any BUKs. My issue is that you're trying to hold Russia responsible for something that Russia had no control over, i.e. Ukrainian BUKs. And yes, there's a German report clearly saying that the BUKs were captured, as if it wasn't obvious enough - the Rebels took photos with the BUKs, why the fuck would they do that if Russia gave them those BUKs in secret? That's common sense 101.

The US lie is that teh-ubah-ebul Rusha shut down zat jet with BUKs, at ze behest of Darth Ebul Overlord Pootie-Poot thru zingle mindad BORG tewwowists.

I'm saying that it was an accident, and neither Putin, nor Russia, had anything to do with it.

How many times do I have to say that I think it was an accident, before people realize that I think that it was an accident?

Even if it was an accident, the world should be able to know which rebel group did it and there should be compensation.

Should there be compensation? Absolutely. Should there be a neutral investigate body? Why yes, yes there should. If only we had a UNSC Resolution on point... like say UNSC Resolution 2166: http://www.un.org/press/en/2014/sc11483.doc.htm

But in order for the investigation to be truly independent, we'd have to send in peacekeepers from nations that don't have a stake in it. The nations boycotting Russia clearly do. As does Russia. And yet, neither side attempted to reach out to truly neutral nations, and give them sole discretion.

[Novus America]

The US lie is that teh-ubah-ebul Rusha shut down zat jet with BUKs, at ze behest of Darth Ebul Overlord Pootie-Poot thru zingle mindad BORG tewwowists.

I'm saying that it was an accident, and neither Putin, nor Russia, had anything to do with it.

How many times do I have to say that I think it was an accident, before people realize that I think that it was an accident?

Even if it was an accident, the world should be able to know which rebel group did it and there should be compensation.

Exactly. The U.S. accidentally shot down an Iranian airline, although the circumstances were different and much more understandable (the U.S. ship was in middle of a battle and saw an incoming plane believed to be a direct threat, and gave warnings that were not answered, while the rebels were shooting everything with no effort at identification or warning).

But the U.S. came clean immediately and paid compensation.

So why all the lies? Why not just admit who did it? Russia looks guilty because Russia pathologically lies, even when telling the truth would benefit Russia more.

[Shofercia]

Even if it was an accident, the world should be able to know which rebel group did it and there should be compensation.

Exactly. The U.S. accidentally shot down an Iranian airline, although the circumstances were different and much more understandable (the U.S. ship was in middle of a battle and saw an incoming plane believed to be a direct threat, and gave warnings that were not answered, while the rebels were shooting everything with no effort at identification or warning).

But the U.S. came clean immediately and paid compensation.

So why all the lies? Why not just admit who did it? Russia looks guilty because Russia pathologically lies, even when telling the truth would benefit Russia more.

No, because if Russia said that "Rebels accidentally did it" the Western Press would gloriously ask the Russians "why did you give them BUKs?" (even though that never happened,) followed by (why are you still supporting the Rebellion,) even though it was just one group, and so on and so forth. Found those WMDs in Iraq yet? How's Libya, that a thriving democracy? FSA about to rout the ISIS in Syria?

Russia doesn't look guilty to those who actually studied the issue, because bullshitting isn't a crime.

[Novus America]

Exactly. The U.S. accidentally shot down an Iranian airline, although the circumstances were different and much more understandable (the U.S. ship was in middle of a battle and saw an incoming plane believed to be a direct threat, and gave warnings that were not answered, while the rebels were shooting everything with no effort at identification or warning).

But the U.S. came clean immediately and paid compensation.

So why all the lies? Why not just admit who did it? Russia looks guilty because Russia pathologically lies, even when telling the truth would benefit Russia more.

No, because if Russia said that "Rebels accidentally did it" the Western Press would gloriously ask the Russians "why did you give them BUKs?" (even though that never happened,) followed by (why are you still supporting the Rebellion,) even though it was just one group, and so on and so forth. Found those WMDs in Iraq yet? How's Libya, that a thriving democracy? FSA about to rout the ISIS in Syria?

Russia doesn't look guilty to those who actually studied the issue, because bullshitting isn't a crime.

Bullshitting is not always a good idea. In fact it is usually a bad idea. And how are those lies working? On either side? Not at all.

And the questions about why Russia is backing the rebellion are legitimate questions to ask. And when your officers and soldiers lead a rebellion, you take responsibility for its actions. That is how it works. Russia is responsible for the rebels. When Russia does bad things they deserved to be questioned. Same as for everbody else.

[Bojikami]

No, because if Russia said that "Rebels accidentally did it" the Western Press would gloriously ask the Russians "why did you give them BUKs?" (even though that never happened,) followed by (why are you still supporting the Rebellion,) even though it was just one group, and so on and so forth. Found those WMDs in Iraq yet? How's Libya, that a thriving democracy? FSA about to rout the ISIS in Syria?

Russia doesn't look guilty to those who actually studied the issue, because bullshitting isn't a crime.

Bullshitting is not always a good idea. In fact it is usually a bad idea. And how are those lies working? On either side? Not at all.

And the questions about why Russia is backing the rebellion are legitimate questions to ask. And when your officers and soldiers lead a rebellion, you take responsibility for its actions. That is how it works. Russia is responsible for the rebels. When Russia does bad things they deserved to be questioned. Same as for everbody else.

Except, as Shof said, this was only one group within the larger rebellion. It makes no sense to withdraw complete support for all of the rebels on account of a few rebels gaining control of Ukrainian military equipment, mistaking a civilian air plane for a military one, and proceeding to shoot it down.

[Geilinor]

Exactly. The U.S. accidentally shot down an Iranian airline, although the circumstances were different and much more understandable (the U.S. ship was in middle of a battle and saw an incoming plane believed to be a direct threat, and gave warnings that were not answered, while the rebels were shooting everything with no effort at identification or warning).

But the U.S. came clean immediately and paid compensation.

So why all the lies? Why not just admit who did it? Russia looks guilty because Russia pathologically lies, even when telling the truth would benefit Russia more.

No, because if Russia said that "Rebels accidentally did it" the Western Press would gloriously ask the Russians "why did you give them BUKs?" (even though that never happened,) followed by (why are you still supporting the Rebellion,) even though it was just one group, and so on and so forth. Found those WMDs in Iraq yet? How's Libya, that a thriving democracy? FSA about to rout the ISIS in Syria?

Russia doesn't look guilty to those who actually studied the issue, because bullshitting isn't a crime.

What Russia should do is criticize the rebels for once.