Ukraine Megathread: Crimea River Part Deux

[Dortmundia]

I'm not contributing anything, but I wanted to know if you have any figures from within the last 2 years on Russia's Per capita growth?

Its not exactly fair to compare the economic health of a country under financial sanctions and one that isnt[/quote]
How does the fall of oil prises has to do with sanctions?

[Byzantium Imperial]

I'm not contributing anything, but I wanted to know if you have any figures from within the last 2 years on Russia's Per capita growth?

Its not exactly fair to compare the economic health of a country under financial sanctions and one that isnt

How does the fall of oil prises has to do with sanctions?[/quote]

Something went wrong with your quoting, just as a helpful reminder.

Oil has played it part too, but Sanctions cutting Russia off from some of its most profitable markets in Europe hasn't helped matters. Overall, Russia's past year economically is an abnormality

[Estruia]

I'm not contributing anything, but I wanted to know if you have any figures from within the last 2 years on Russia's Per capita growth?

Its not exactly fair to compare the economic health of a country under financial sanctions and one that isnt

It's a good thing I wasn't comparing any countries. I asked for updated information, to see the sort of impact Russia's actions could have had on the Russian people. That's literally it.

[Estruia]

Its not exactly fair to compare the economic health of a country under financial sanctions and one that isnt

How does the fall of oil prises has to do with sanctions?

Something went wrong with your quoting, just as a helpful reminder.

Oil has played it part too, but Sanctions cutting Russia off from some of its most profitable markets in Europe hasn't helped matters. Overall, Russia's past year economically is an abnormality[/quote]

That's also why I said within the last two years. It would show before and after the annexation of Crimea.

[Byzantium Imperial]

Its not exactly fair to compare the economic health of a country under financial sanctions and one that isnt

It's a good thing I wasn't comparing any countries. I asked for updated information, to see the sort of impact Russia's actions could have had on the Russian people. That's literally it.

Oh, alright. Here is what a quick google image search found
(which is coincidentally the same image the other poster was using)

[The balkens]

It's a good thing I wasn't comparing any countries. I asked for updated information, to see the sort of impact Russia's actions could have had on the Russian people. That's literally it.

Oh, alright. Here is what a quick google image search found
(which is coincidentally the same image the other poster was using)

Whats with the down turn?
Surely cant be the ebil western nazi sanctions on Russia's god given right to expand its borders as it pleases?

[LA Cheese]

what an odd graph. it's almost as if there was some kind of event between 2008 and 2010 that would cause the Russian economy to decline. strange shit.

[Estruia]

It's a good thing I wasn't comparing any countries. I asked for updated information, to see the sort of impact Russia's actions could have had on the Russian people. That's literally it.

Oh, alright. Here is what a quick google image search found
(which is coincidentally the same image the other poster was using)

It is a similar image, but the other one ended in 2009.

Edit: Anything on their Nominal GDP per capita, as opposed to their PPP per capita?

[Geilinor]

Oh, alright. Here is what a quick google image search found
(which is coincidentally the same image the other poster was using)

(Image)

It is a similar image, but the other one ended in 2009.

Edit: Anything on their Nominal GDP per capita, as opposed to their PPP per capita?

The nominal has tanked. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_past_and_projected_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita#IMF_estimates_between_2010_and_2019 It declined from over $12,000 to about $8,000. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia Russia now ranks 74th in nominal GDP per capita.

[New Werpland]

Abkhazia for example.

We're talking about countries, are you recognizing Abkhazia as an independent country?

Yes I am, however they're becoming less independent and more of a Russian puppet.

Well it's a little more complicated than that. When Saakashvili get's accused of corruption by a government composed of ex crooks and an oligarch, he's guilty. But when Putin murders people within and outside his borders, it's ok because he almost got the per capita gdp to Poland levels.

No, it's really not. Amazingly enough, my analogy is just limited to, *gasps*, my analogy. Although it's funny that you bring up Saakashvili, while talking about others being warmongers. That's really fucking hilarious. Saakashvili assaulted South Ossetia in 2004. Failing that, he started building up his armed forces, spending obscene amounts of money on them, only to waste them in an operation that he launched on August 7th, against South Ossetia. Even though Saakashvili engaged the Georgian armed forces on August 7th, and the Russians didn't respond until August 8th, the Western Press "heroically" claimed that Russians started the war, because they're either idiots who don't comprehend that 7 precedes 8, or were pretending to be idiots who cannot comprehend that 7 comes before 8, or perhaps there was some other reason, like Putin actually providing an alternative to the Western system of government, and they're being butthurt about it, more more on that later.

Saakashvili rightfully gets accused of corruption, because, *gasps* he was corrupt. http://www.tol.org/client/article/23965 ... tions.html

For some odd reason, the most "freest of the free" in the Western Press didn't really pick up on how Saakashvili grew the economy. Must be magic. Since most people don't want to pay to read that article, let me cite a summary:

Here’s how the program worked: you buy prime tourist land worth $50k for a $1k, you invest about $24k into Georgia’s economy, (which you can get back if you’re investing in your firms,) you resell the land back to the Georgians for $40k and smile as you pocket the $10k and whatever you can glean from your investment. Granted, the numbers are made up, but you get the idea. Except there was a problem. He sold private land worth millions for a few bucks. Yes, you’re reading that right. PRIVATE land.

“In addition to questions of corruption, the property privatizations have given rise to dozens of court claims by people who say they are the rightful owners of some of the properties. If those rulings go against the government, the price tag could be enormous. Omar Akubardia said his son owned about 48 hectares of land in the small Black Sea town of Anaklia, where the family had planted 16,000 saplings of feijoa, kiwi, and lemon and had ambitious business plans. According to a report by a team of civic groups in 2012, almost all of that land was transferred to the Economy Ministry, without the family’s consent, after the region was selected as a tourism development zone in 2009. The family filed suit for restoration of their title but have lost a series of court decisions, and amid the legal proceedings the property was registered to a private company called Anaklia-Port. It was among 2,000 hectares that Anaklia-Port bought from the government for 6.34 million lari ($3.8 million) for the construction of a transport hub.

Akubardia said his family received no compensation “even though we had all the important documentation.” They have taken the matter to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. “That’s my only hope to get my property back,” Akubardia said. Giorgi Chikaberidze, Akubardia’s advocate from the Georgian Young Lawyers’ Association, a human rights group, suggested that Georgian courts were under pressure to abide by the government’s decision even though his client is the legal owner of the property. “So both the private property rights and right to a fair trial have been infringed,” he said.”

Of course this "economic miracle" was spent on the military: http://militarybudget.org/georgia/

In 2003, Georgia's military budget was $96.3 million. In 2007, the year before Saakashvili's attack, it was $1,201 million. In 2003, that was 1.1% of the GDP. In 2007, it was 9.2% of the GDP. But you should continue to tell us all about how glorious Saakashvili is and how teh ubah ebul Putin is, after all, free speech is freedom to post no matter how uninformed you are.

I actually can't read that article as it requires a susbcription, but I can say it sounds like a small issue that got severely bloated, as quite a few Saakashvili detractor stories work. Even if it is true, he made the country livable, so unless you want to take back what you said earlier Saakashvili's corruption must be forgiven.

Speaking of Putin, do I give a shit that he murdered Litvenenko, a backstabbing traitor with Polonium? Not really. I should point out that after Litvenenko's death, there really wasn't much, (or any,) murder, although the "most fair and balanced, trusted, and oh progressive name in news" wants to pretend that Putin also wacked Berezovsky, which is funny, because Berezovsky became worthless after losing his trial to Abramovich. Oh, you mean civilians? MH-17 was an accident and murder requires intent. During the Ossetian War, one of the reasons for not taking Tbilisi was the possibility of massive civilian casualties, so no, that doesn't count. Ukraine? Not sure if casualties would've been higher if Putin didn't intervene, after all, Neo-Nazi thugs deliberately burned pro-Russian protesters in Odessa, so their rampage through the DonBass might've caused even more civilian casualties.

Nemtsov too don't forget him.
And I'm sure that the reason they didn't enter Tbilisi after burning down those villages along the way, was because they had a devotion to preserving human life.

But what if Putin never backed Yanukovych, might this whole calamity have been avoided?

Speaking of leaders that do have a really bad Human Rights record, hmmm, one comes to mind for invading that Middle Eastern country, I think that was Iraq. And here's you opining about a war, started over bullshit, that eventually led to the rise of mass murdering ISIS:

It's a little more complicated than that. Western governments are afraid to look like the ebul neocons who perpetrated Iraq, aiding freedom fighters in the war against totalitarianism is ok though.

Did I say that the Iraq war was a good idea there?

Ahhh yes, New Werpland, you clearly care for Human Rights, as long as said rights coincide with certain geopolitical aims. And here's you on Gitmo, and promptly getting your butt kicked in debates, again:

Just north of $150 million a year.

I don't have the slightest memory of saying this, but keep in mind that it's a question not a statement.

[United Marxist Nations]

Let's see here:

Costa: "how should Obama have improved his immigration policies?"
Me: "here are the ways"
You: "hurr durr, someone's just scoring points back at home..."

I live in California, and do you have anything aside from barbs to contribute to the debate? Anything at all, balkens?

Gee, the "Make opponent look like a absolute retard" tactic. Hallmark of Eastern debating skills.

10/10 Gr8 DB8 M8.

Shall I find a few of the posts where you do that ad nauseum?

Oh, alright. Here is what a quick google image search found
(which is coincidentally the same image the other poster was using)

Whats with the down turn?
Surely cant be the ebil western nazi sanctions on Russia's god given right to expand its borders as it pleases?

That's why you don't call the entire Ukrainian government run by neo-Nazis, something Russia was fond of doing.

What? Ukrainian government isint run by Nazis? Huh, get out! if you dont want to be in Russia's oh-so great, sphere of influence then you MUST be a Nazi!

[United Marxist Nations]

Btw, just gonna bring this back up for those who continue to support the Ukraine:

Also, thank you for linking that article Geilinor, I just found something I didn't know in it:

The second law recognises controversial nationalist groups – including the Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) and Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) – as “independence fighters” and makes it a criminal offence to question the legitimacy of their actions. While these two groups at different times fought both Soviet and German forces, they also collaborated with the Nazis and took part in ethnic cleansing. One of the authors of the law is the son of UPA leader Roman Shukhevych.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/m ... -communism

So, what about this? Making it illegal to question the legitimacy of the actions of people who committed massacres on Poles and Jews and collaborated with Nazis? So very democratic!

[The balkens]

Gee, the "Make opponent look like a absolute retard" tactic. Hallmark of Eastern debating skills.

10/10 Gr8 DB8 M8.

Shall I find a few of the posts where you do that ad nauseum?

Whats with the down turn?
Surely cant be the ebil western nazi sanctions on Russia's god given right to expand its borders as it pleases?

What? Ukrainian government isint run by Nazis? Huh, get out! if you dont want to be in Russia's oh-so great, sphere of influence then you MUST be a Nazi!

And....?

[United Marxist Nations]

Shall I find a few of the posts where you do that ad nauseum?

And....?

I just think it is funny that you accuse other people of trying to make others' positions look dumb when that seems to be a very large portion of your posts in the Ukraine threads, which is even worse, since, as far as I can tell, none of the regular Pro-Russian posters (i.e. me, Bratislava, Shof) seem to hold the views you love to "satirize" so much.

[The balkens]

And....?

I just think it is funny that you accuse other people of trying to make others' positions look dumb when that seems to be a very large portion of your posts in the Ukraine threads, which is even worse, since, as far as I can tell, none of the regular Pro-Russian posters (i.e. me, Bratislava, Shof) seem to hold the views you love to "satirize" so much.

Congratulations, you just found out that i take none of you seriously, which should have been common knowledge.

Not that i take Marxism, Russia, Russophiles and most communists seriously anyway.

[United Marxist Nations]

I just think it is funny that you accuse other people of trying to make others' positions look dumb when that seems to be a very large portion of your posts in the Ukraine threads, which is even worse, since, as far as I can tell, none of the regular Pro-Russian posters (i.e. me, Bratislava, Shof) seem to hold the views you love to "satirize" so much.

Congratulations, you just found out that i take none of you seriously, which should have been common knowledge.

Not that i take Marxism, Russia, Russophiles and most communists seriously anyway.

And you are free to do that, but you don't have to take every opportunity you can to mock everyone even tangentially related to them for things that others who are only tangentially related to them say.

[Utilitarian Garibaldi]

And....?

I just think it is funny that you accuse other people of trying to make others' positions look dumb when that seems to be a very large portion of your posts in the Ukraine threads, which is even worse, since, as far as I can tell, none of the regular Pro-Russian posters (i.e. me, Bratislava, Shof) seem to hold the views you love to "satirize" so much.

Come on you gotta cut him some slack, some people get involved in these arguments because their homelands are at risk rather than rejoicing that Western Capitalism has a competitor.

[United Marxist Nations]

I just think it is funny that you accuse other people of trying to make others' positions look dumb when that seems to be a very large portion of your posts in the Ukraine threads, which is even worse, since, as far as I can tell, none of the regular Pro-Russian posters (i.e. me, Bratislava, Shof) seem to hold the views you love to "satirize" so much.

Come on you gotta cut him some slack, some people get involved in these arguments because their homelands are at risk rather than rejoicing that Western Capitalism has a competitor.

I am quite sure he is an American, not a Ukrainian.

[The balkens]

Come on you gotta cut him some slack, some people get involved in these arguments because their homelands are at risk rather than rejoicing that Western Capitalism has a competitor.

I am quite sure he is an American, not a Ukrainian.

Doesnt mean i got friends over there, could have some family, you may never know.

[Estruia]

It is a similar image, but the other one ended in 2009.

Edit: Anything on their Nominal GDP per capita, as opposed to their PPP per capita?

The nominal has tanked. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_past_and_projected_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita#IMF_estimates_between_2010_and_2019 It declined from over $12,000 to about $8,000. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia Russia now ranks 74th in nominal GDP per capita.

Oof. That's quite a big hit. I wonder how long it'll take to rebound from that?

[New Werpland]

The nominal has tanked. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_past_and_projected_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita#IMF_estimates_between_2010_and_2019 It declined from over $12,000 to about $8,000. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia Russia now ranks 74th in nominal GDP per capita.

Oof. That's quite a big hit. I wonder how long it'll take to rebound from that?

Hopefully sanctions on Iran will go down before they start to recover.

[Costa Fierro]

Btw, just gonna bring this back up for those who continue to support the Ukraine.

Peddling propaganda to change the perceptions of the public in favor of our popular lord and savior, Putin?

[United Marxist Nations]

Btw, just gonna bring this back up for those who continue to support the Ukraine.

Peddling propaganda to change the perceptions of the public in favor of our popular lord and savior, Putin?

The Guardian propaganda, is it?

[Costa Fierro]

Peddling propaganda to change the perceptions of the public in favor of our popular lord and savior, Putin?

The Guardian propaganda, is it?

No. But you're trying to twist facts and present them to suit your agenda.

[Estruia]

Peddling propaganda to change the perceptions of the public in favor of our popular lord and savior, Putin?

The Guardian propaganda, is it?

To be fair, only the UPA ethnically-cleansed Jews and Poles. The UPA was created by former OUM members who were too radical for the main group. While the OUM did collaborate with the Germans, it was mostly to gain power in Central/Eastern Ukraine and to defeat the UPA.