Ukraine Megathread: Crimea River Part Deux

[New Werpland]

Ukraine should let dombass become a state in Russia, then there economy would be better. If Ukraine as a whole wanted that, it would be better for everyone. This is classic Western Imperialism. And now the Ukrainians have to DEAL WITH NAZIS.


Werpland should start listening to the truth here, I agree with you.

That's not up to Ukraine, or Russia. That's up to the people of the DonBass Region. They should be given options if they want to be with Ukraine, to be with Russia, or to be independent.

Come on, you know it's the same thing.

That is strange, as we all know how autonomous Ossetia and Abkhazia are.

The pro-Russian candidate in Abkhazia lost, despite Kobzon's endorsement. Abkhazia also wanted to establish better relations with Turkey. Two things brought Abkhazia into Russia's prime sphere of influence: the fact that their tourism minister stole Rubles instead of spending them on tourism, and thus Russia had to bail out Abkhazia, and the fact that Turkey rejected repeated requests from the Abkhaz. Neither is Putin's fault.

Regarding South Ossetia, yes, they want to be with North Ossetia. This isn't news. Ossetians know they're the same people, and it's time for the rest of us to realize that Ossetians are Ossetians.

You're not referring to the current government are you? The one that came to power after the one before them was deposed? and who put the Abkhaz military under Russian control?

Ossetians are still people, and therefor shouldn't be forced to endure Russian rule via corrupt fools like Kokoity.

[Shofercia]

Let's read what he actually said, shall we?



He's correct in that Russia didn't veto the investigative body, they vetoed an organization that would have the power to persecute, not merely investigate. And considering how far reaching the US interprets these things, (remember the "no fly zone" over Libya, which I, btw, correctly opposed,) the veto might've prevented a witch hunt. The Rebels aren't some monogamous group praying to Putin the Deity, or whatever bullshit the press is trying to peddle around; they're a collection of numerous groups, some of whom aren't very pro-Russian. What's to prevent the US from targeting the most effective, pro-Russian Rebels, irrespective of that group's involvement with MH-17? Absolutely nothing. We can presume that the most likely scenario is that some Rebel faction mistakenly shot down the plane that was redirected to fly over a no-fly zone with captured Ukrainian BUKs. Do you know which faction? If so, please, by all means, inform the rest of us!

Persecute? Is that a typo or do you honestly think the rebels are being persecuted? There is no witch hunt against them.

Le quote: they vetoed an organization that would have the power to persecute, not merely investigate

Considering that the UNSC doesn't have the power to make persecuting agencies, I think it's clear that was a typo.

That's not up to Ukraine, or Russia. That's up to the people of the DonBass Region. They should be given options if they want to be with Ukraine, to be with Russia, or to be independent.

Come on, you know it's the same thing.

No, it's not. He said that DonBass should be united with Russia. The resident of DonBass want independence or are unsure. Being independent is not the same as being with Russia.

The pro-Russian candidate in Abkhazia lost, despite Kobzon's endorsement. Abkhazia also wanted to establish better relations with Turkey. Two things brought Abkhazia into Russia's prime sphere of influence: the fact that their tourism minister stole Rubles instead of spending them on tourism, and thus Russia had to bail out Abkhazia, and the fact that Turkey rejected repeated requests from the Abkhaz. Neither is Putin's fault.

Regarding South Ossetia, yes, they want to be with North Ossetia. This isn't news. Ossetians know they're the same people, and it's time for the rest of us to realize that Ossetians are Ossetians.

You're not referring to the current government are you? The one that came to power after the one before them was deposed? and who put the Abkhaz military under Russian control?

Ossetians are still people, and therefor shouldn't be forced to endure Russian rule via corrupt fools like Kokoity.

Kokoity might be corrupt, but he was democratically elected and is far from being a fool. You see, some people in Eastern Europe don't really give a shit if politicians are corrupt or not, as long as they do their jobs. If my country thrives under your rule, knock yourself out when building personal palaces.

Kokoity was born in 1964, in Tskhinval(i). Yep, that's the capital of South Ossetia, a town/city that he grew to love. He worked hard and became the wrestling champion of the Georgian SSR during his last year of high school. Knowing that hard times were coming, Kokoity didn't use his wrestling skills to escape the city, (star Soviet athletes could've lived anywhere they wanted to in the 1980s,) and instead of a life of relative luxury, he stayed in his home town, working as an electrician, since there was a shortage of them. In 1985 he started studying at a pedagogical institute, integrating sports and education and developing youth programs to keep kids off of drugs. He became a champion for youth rights. And that's what started building his voter base later on.

During the First Ossetian War, he created and personally led a military company against the Georgians, rather well I might add. Afterwards he went to Moscow, securing a rehabilitation fund for victims of the war and war veterans. In 1996 he led the Moscow-Tskhinval(i) trade delegation, to improve the lives of Ossetians. All of this is the reason why he cruised to victory in the Ossetian Presidential election in 2001. While president, he brilliantly responded to Saakashvili fallacious assault in 2004, checking the assault, but keeping his forces from risky escalation.

And here you are, calling this great man a "fool" and informing me that he was somehow undemocratically elected. How ignorant of the situation must you be, in order to utter such nonsense? Kokoity is the most popular person in South Ossetia, and considering everything that he's done, if he builds a palace or two, fuck it, he deserves it for promoting policies that helped thousands, in not tens of thousands of lives. And he had to give up a promising career in sports to get it done. Oh, and he's Ossetian, not Russian.

The Abkhaz military came under Russian control as a result of Saakashvili starting the Ossetian War. However, they are preserving the capacity to operate independently. They're under Russian control at the division level, not the brigade level.

[New Werpland]

(Image)

Kokoity might be corrupt, but he was democratically elected and is far from being a fool. You see, some people in Eastern Europe don't really give a shit if politicians are corrupt or not, as long as they do their jobs. If my country thrives under your rule, knock yourself out when building personal palaces.

Kokoity was born in 1964, in Tskhinval(i). Yep, that's the capital of South Ossetia, a town/city that he grew to love. He worked hard and became the wrestling champion of the Georgian SSR during his last year of high school. Knowing that hard times were coming, Kokoity didn't use his wrestling skills to escape the city, (star Soviet athletes could've lived anywhere they wanted to in the 1980s,) and instead of a life of relative luxury, he stayed in his home town, working as an electrician, since there was a shortage of them. In 1985 he started studying at a pedagogical institute, integrating sports and education and developing youth programs to keep kids off of drugs. He became a champion for youth rights. And that's what started building his voter base later on.

During the First Ossetian War, he created and personally led a military company against the Georgians, rather well I might add. Afterwards he went to Moscow, securing a rehabilitation fund for victims of the war and war veterans. In 1996 he led the Moscow-Tskhinval(i) trade delegation, to improve the lives of Ossetians. All of this is the reason why he cruised to victory in the Ossetian Presidential election in 2001. While president, he brilliantly responded to Saakashvili fallacious assault in 2004, checking the assault, but keeping his forces from risky escalation.

And here you are, calling this great man a "fool" and informing me that he was somehow undemocratically elected. How ignorant of the situation must you be, in order to utter such nonsense? Kokoity is the most popular person in South Ossetia, and considering everything that he's done, if he builds a palace or two, fuck it, he deserves it for promoting policies that helped thousands, in not tens of thousands of lives. And he had to give up a promising career in sports to get it done. Oh, and he's Ossetian, not Russian.

Kokoity isn't popular, he mismanages Russian aid (which the South Ossetian economy requires to redevelop itself hooray for getting things done), and former members of his own government accuse him of creating terrorist attacks to scapegoat Georgians.

Is this sarcasm? I'm not sure with you.

[Shofercia]

(Image)

Kokoity might be corrupt, but he was democratically elected and is far from being a fool. You see, some people in Eastern Europe don't really give a shit if politicians are corrupt or not, as long as they do their jobs. If my country thrives under your rule, knock yourself out when building personal palaces.

Kokoity was born in 1964, in Tskhinval(i). Yep, that's the capital of South Ossetia, a town/city that he grew to love. He worked hard and became the wrestling champion of the Georgian SSR during his last year of high school. Knowing that hard times were coming, Kokoity didn't use his wrestling skills to escape the city, (star Soviet athletes could've lived anywhere they wanted to in the 1980s,) and instead of a life of relative luxury, he stayed in his home town, working as an electrician, since there was a shortage of them. In 1985 he started studying at a pedagogical institute, integrating sports and education and developing youth programs to keep kids off of drugs. He became a champion for youth rights. And that's what started building his voter base later on.

During the First Ossetian War, he created and personally led a military company against the Georgians, rather well I might add. Afterwards he went to Moscow, securing a rehabilitation fund for victims of the war and war veterans. In 1996 he led the Moscow-Tskhinval(i) trade delegation, to improve the lives of Ossetians. All of this is the reason why he cruised to victory in the Ossetian Presidential election in 2001. While president, he brilliantly responded to Saakashvili fallacious assault in 2004, checking the assault, but keeping his forces from risky escalation.

And here you are, calling this great man a "fool" and informing me that he was somehow undemocratically elected. How ignorant of the situation must you be, in order to utter such nonsense? Kokoity is the most popular person in South Ossetia, and considering everything that he's done, if he builds a palace or two, fuck it, he deserves it for promoting policies that helped thousands, in not tens of thousands of lives. And he had to give up a promising career in sports to get it done. Oh, and he's Ossetian, not Russian.

Kokoity isn't popular, he mismanages Russian aid (which the South Ossetian economy requires to redevelop itself hooray for getting things done), and former members of his own government accuse him of creating terrorist attacks to scapegoat Georgians.

Is this sarcasm? I'm not sure with you.

You mean North Ossetia, (a part of Russia,) is sending aid to South Ossetia? I heard Moscow's aid also headed for Moscow. It's a miracle. The link you cited was from one poll in 2010, which doesn't even tell us if the respondents were chosen at random or not. It's hilarious to site an anti-Kokoity 2010 poll, considering that he said he wasn't seeking reelection in 2011. I've looked at their other polls, and their polling methodology remains miraculously hidden. They have a single e-mail list, and don't list any of the experts. Am I supposed to be impressed by those findings?

Actual polling companies, be it the allegedly anti-Putin Levada or allegedly pro-Putin VSIOM, (not really seeing how numbers can be anti or pro someone, since they're just numbers,) provide polling information, who does the polling, how it's conducted, etc. http://www.levada.ru/eng/ and http://www.wciom.com/

Compare those to the sorry looking site that you sited, with "recent" news from 2012...

So I looked up the polls from Levada, and it looks like most Russians, (average Ivans,) are better informed than most so-called "experts", because a plurality know that Abkhazia is trying to improve its relations with most of its surrounding countries, not just Russia. http://www.levada.ru/21-08-2014/rossiya ... noi-osetii

And here's an interesting poll from VSIOM in English: http://www.wciom.com/index.php?id=121

Note, those are actually recent.

[New Werpland]

Kokoity isn't popular, he mismanages Russian aid (which the South Ossetian economy requires to redevelop itself hooray for getting things done), and former members of his own government accuse him of creating terrorist attacks to scapegoat Georgians.

Is this sarcasm? I'm not sure with you.

You mean North Ossetia, (a part of Russia,) is sending aid to South Ossetia? I heard Moscow's aid also headed for Moscow. It's a miracle. The link you cited was from one poll in 2010, which doesn't even tell us if the respondents were chosen at random or not. It's hilarious to site an anti-Kokoity 2010 poll, considering that he said he wasn't seeking reelection in 2011. I've looked at their other polls, and their polling methodology remains miraculously hidden. They have a single e-mail list, and don't list any of the experts. Am I supposed to be impressed by those findings?

Actual polling companies, be it the allegedly anti-Putin Levada or allegedly pro-Putin VSIOM, (not really seeing how numbers can be anti or pro someone, since they're just numbers,) provide polling information, who does the polling, how it's conducted, etc. http://www.levada.ru/eng/ and http://www.wciom.com/

Compare those to the sorry looking site that you sited, with "recent" news from 2012...

So I looked up the polls from Levada, and it looks like most Russians, (average Ivans,) are better informed than most so-called "experts", because a plurality know that Abkhazia is trying to improve its relations with most of its surrounding countries, not just Russia. http://www.levada.ru/21-08-2014/rossiya ... noi-osetii

And here's an interesting poll from VSIOM in English: http://www.wciom.com/index.php?id=121

Note, those are actually recent.

Somehow you're links don't strike me as relevant, why don't you show me a reliable statistic of Kokoity's ratings?

They also aren't as interesting as you suggest, we already know that most Russians are brainwashed, and that they adore Putin even more when he's fighting the West.

[Dortmundia]

Regarding South Ossetia, yes, they want to be with North Ossetia. This isn't news. Ossetians know they're the same people, and it's time for the rest of us to realize that Ossetians are Ossetians.
.

If so than Russia could cede North Ossetia to their Southern brothers.

[Shofercia]

You mean North Ossetia, (a part of Russia,) is sending aid to South Ossetia? I heard Moscow's aid also headed for Moscow. It's a miracle. The link you cited was from one poll in 2010, which doesn't even tell us if the respondents were chosen at random or not. It's hilarious to site an anti-Kokoity 2010 poll, considering that he said he wasn't seeking reelection in 2011. I've looked at their other polls, and their polling methodology remains miraculously hidden. They have a single e-mail list, and don't list any of the experts. Am I supposed to be impressed by those findings?

Actual polling companies, be it the allegedly anti-Putin Levada or allegedly pro-Putin VSIOM, (not really seeing how numbers can be anti or pro someone, since they're just numbers,) provide polling information, who does the polling, how it's conducted, etc. http://www.levada.ru/eng/ and http://www.wciom.com/

Compare those to the sorry looking site that you sited, with "recent" news from 2012...

So I looked up the polls from Levada, and it looks like most Russians, (average Ivans,) are better informed than most so-called "experts", because a plurality know that Abkhazia is trying to improve its relations with most of its surrounding countries, not just Russia. http://www.levada.ru/21-08-2014/rossiya ... noi-osetii

And here's an interesting poll from VSIOM in English: http://www.wciom.com/index.php?id=121

Note, those are actually recent.

Somehow you're links don't strike me as relevant, why don't you show me a reliable statistic of Kokoity's ratings?

They also aren't as interesting as you suggest, we already know that most Russians are brainwashed, and that they adore Putin even more when he's fighting the West.

There's no current reliable statistic of his rating because, erm, oh yeah, he hasn't been president since 2011. I can show you the numbers with which he was elected, but you'd dismiss that as b/s propaganda. Oh, and it's odd that my sources don't strike you as relevant, because unlike the crap you cited, the sources I cited actually show how a polling agency's website is supposed to look like. If you're having difficulty accepting the Russian ones, there's Gallup and RCP; granted the last one's a summary.

And Russians tend to vote for leaders that improve our standard of living; if you think that's "brainwashed", well then, I'm glad that the Balts are so "enlightened" as to choose a demographic meltdown and austerity. Wish them all the best for the future, as they walk the path of "enlightenment!" And when you have a refugee for every 200 people in your country, and the refugee is saying "pro-Western government in Kiev is mercilessly shelling out schools", fighting that tends to be a good thing for some people, you know, the ones that are known as "brainwashed" to you, and rational human beings to most of the people on Planet Earth.

Regarding South Ossetia, yes, they want to be with North Ossetia. This isn't news. Ossetians know they're the same people, and it's time for the rest of us to realize that Ossetians are Ossetians.
.

If so than Russia could cede North Ossetia to their Southern brothers.

Because the Ossetians don't want to leave the Russian Federation. You cannot just redraw borders without local support. You don't think that I want Donetsk and Lugansk as part of Russia? I do! But the locals made their choice for independence, and so it shall be. Speaking of messing with countries without local support, Iraq and Libya come to mind, how's that working out? Are those prospering democracies yet? Or are they still experiencing democratic birthpangs?

[Geilinor]

Because the Ossetians don't want to leave the Russian Federation. You cannot just redraw borders without local support. You don't think that I want Donetsk and Lugansk as part of Russia? I do! But the locals made their choice for independence, and so it shall be. Speaking of messing with countries without local support, Iraq and Libya come to mind, how's that working out? Are those prospering democracies yet? Or are they still experiencing democratic birthpangs?

The locals in Donetsk and Lugansk didn't choose independence.

[Shofercia]

Because the Ossetians don't want to leave the Russian Federation. You cannot just redraw borders without local support. You don't think that I want Donetsk and Lugansk as part of Russia? I do! But the locals made their choice for independence, and so it shall be. Speaking of messing with countries without local support, Iraq and Libya come to mind, how's that working out? Are those prospering democracies yet? Or are they still experiencing democratic birthpangs?

The locals in Donetsk and Lugansk didn't choose independence.

I'm going off of this poll: A plurality in the DPR and LPR want to recognize the independence of the DPR and the LPR: 36% for, 20% against.

http://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=540&page=1

Here are the newest polls in Ukraine.

Looking at the poll:

A plurality in the DPR and LPR want to recognize the independence of the DPR and the LPR: 36% for, 20% against. And they want to be joining the Customs Union: 58% for, 14% against. An independent DonBass in the Customs Union is what the people want. Most Ukrainians are pro-Russian language, suck on that nationalist idiots, and the NATO thing is very iffy, both numbers round up to 41%. The South and East don't trust anyone, but with the EU's economic shenanigans, that'll change. Interestingly enough the only group that's anti-Russian language, (by a majority, Center has a small plurality,) is the West, but they're a minority, thankfully. Fucking Stalin, had to annex that to Ukraine

Ukraine is still divided, but now we can guess how the Donetsk/Lugansk residents will vote in an actual Referendum. And with Ukraine's current economic situation being what it is, it's not hard to figure out they'll be followed by others. Thanks for posting that poll, I wonder what the accuracy data's on it.

If that plurality in the poll becomes a majority in the Referendum, I'd support their independence.

[Geilinor]

The locals in Donetsk and Lugansk didn't choose independence.

I'm going off of this poll: A plurality in the DPR and LPR want to recognize the independence of the DPR and the LPR: 36% for, 20% against.

36% is not a conclusive result. I want to hear from the 44% who didn't care enough to answer.

[New Werpland]

There's no current reliable statistic of his rating because, erm, oh yeah, he hasn't been president since 2011. I can show you the numbers with which he was elected, but you'd dismiss that as b/s propaganda.

Yes and I have reason to. https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2013/south-ossetia#.VcF0iflVikp

But I suppose Freedom House is biased.

Oh, and it's odd that my sources don't strike you as relevant, because unlike the crap you cited, the sources I cited actually show how a polling agency's website is supposed to look like. If you're having difficulty accepting the Russian ones, there's Gallup and RCP; granted the last one's a summary.

They weren't relevant as they weren't pertaining to our discussion. But I actually don't doubt Putin's popularity and made that clear before, so I still don't see you're point.

And Russians tend to vote for leaders that improve our standard of living; if you think that's "brainwashed", well then, I'm glad that the Balts are so "enlightened" as to choose a demographic meltdown and austerity. Wish them all the best for the future, as they walk the path of "enlightenment!" And when you have a refugee for every 200 people in your country, and the refugee is saying "pro-Western government in Kiev is mercilessly shelling out schools", fighting that tends to be a good thing for some people, you know, the ones that are known as "brainwashed" to you, and rational human beings to most of the people on Planet Earth.

Yes the Eastern European states who choose to go for Liberal Democracy have consistently better economies and political/civil freedom. But of course we all know that western democratic governments bomb children and are Nazis. Please don't tell me that the main reason for Putin's popularity is wholly based on the state of Russian economy under him, I'm sure he could survive without the oil.

[Shofercia]

I'm going off of this poll: A plurality in the DPR and LPR want to recognize the independence of the DPR and the LPR: 36% for, 20% against.

36% is not a conclusive result. I want to hear from the 44% who didn't care enough to answer.

Or were unsure of the answer, but yes, I'd like to hear from them too.

There's no current reliable statistic of his rating because, erm, oh yeah, he hasn't been president since 2011. I can show you the numbers with which he was elected, but you'd dismiss that as b/s propaganda.

Yes and I have reason to. https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2013/south-ossetia#.VcF0iflVikp

But I suppose Freedom House is biased.

That's correct. For instance, according to Freedom House, there's less freedom in 2010, then there was in 1992. I'm not exactly sure how being assassinated by the mafia counts as freedom, perhaps you and freedom house can explain that for me https://freedomhouse.org/report/special ... enty-years

Even though the 1996 was rigged, possibly the worse rigged Russian election ever, probably enough to make Stalin jealous, the West had no issue preaching that was a step towards democracy. However the 2012 presidential election, where the most popular candidate was elected, well my, my, my, that was like totally a step backwards. Essentially if the Russian government is weak, they're democratic, and if the Russian government is strong, they're authoritarian. Here's Freedom House spinning Yeltsin shelling the Legislature: https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom ... 011/russia

In 1993, Yeltsin used force to thwart an attempted coup by parliamentary opponents of radical reform, after which voters approved a new constitution establishing a powerful presidency and a bicameral national legislature, the Federal Assembly. The 1995 parliamentary elections featured strong support for the Communist Party and ultranationalist forces. Nevertheless, in the 1996 presidential poll, Yeltsin defeated Communist leader Gennady Zyuganov

Remember kids, it's totally ok to use tanks against Congressmen! Freedom House will even help white wash it for you! And here's Freedom House on Putin not shelling the Legislature:

After taking office, Putin moved quickly to reduce the influence of the legislature, tame the business community and the news media, and strengthen the FSB.

As I've said before: weak Russian leader shells Parliament with tanks, Freedom House says: "meh"
Strong Russian leader uses Constitution to make Parliament share some more power, Freedom House says: "tut, tut, tut, how dictatorial of you!"

So yeah, New Werpland, I'd say that Freedumb House is biased.

Oh, and it's odd that my sources don't strike you as relevant, because unlike the crap you cited, the sources I cited actually show how a polling agency's website is supposed to look like. If you're having difficulty accepting the Russian ones, there's Gallup and RCP; granted the last one's a summary.

They weren't relevant as they weren't pertaining to our discussion. But I actually don't doubt Putin's popularity and made that clear before, so I still don't see you're point.

So a source that shows you what a proper statistical page looks like isn't pertaining to discussion on statistics. Got it. Are wings pertaining to an airplane's flight?

And Russians tend to vote for leaders that improve our standard of living; if you think that's "brainwashed", well then, I'm glad that the Balts are so "enlightened" as to choose a demographic meltdown and austerity. Wish them all the best for the future, as they walk the path of "enlightenment!" And when you have a refugee for every 200 people in your country, and the refugee is saying "pro-Western government in Kiev is mercilessly shelling out schools", fighting that tends to be a good thing for some people, you know, the ones that are known as "brainwashed" to you, and rational human beings to most of the people on Planet Earth.

Yes the Eastern European states who choose to go for Liberal Democracy have consistently better economies and political/civil freedom.

Hmmm, really now?

Ukraine:



Belarus:



I guess that's what happens when one reads Freedumb House a bit too much. Let's do another one, shall we?

Georgia:



Azerbaijan:



Consistently better? Cause that looks like they're worse. You do know that bad is the opposite of good, and worse is the opposite of better, right? It's just that English is my first language, and I don't want you to be confused by this tough terminology.

But of course we all know that western democratic governments bomb children and are Nazis.

In democratic societies Nazis cannot come to power any longer, unless USAID funds organizations like Chesno, which then coups the legitimately elected government, sending the country into chaos, and making various parts want to leave said country; then Nazis might come to power. As for bombing kids, tell me, were there no kids in Libya? Iraq? Syria? Serbia?

Please don't tell me that the main reason for Putin's popularity is wholly based on the state of Russian economy under him, I'm sure he could survive without the oil.

I'm also sure that he could also survive without the oil. That's the first valid thing you've said in the post. It's also hidden at the end. Oh, and his popularity is based on programs that led to economic growth, demographic growth, military victories, do I really need to keep going here?

[LA Cheese]

but let's be clear. corruption isn't ok just because you do a good job.

[Dortmundia]

Good news. The Turkish stream bas been cancelled.

[Costa Fierro]

He's correct in that Russia didn't veto the investigative body, they vetoed an organization that would have the power to persecute, not merely investigate.

And what part of my post said that the Russians were vetoing the investigation itself? The post in question said that there was no evidence of who shot down MH17 despite clear evidence to the contrary.

And considering how far reaching the US interprets these things, (remember the "no fly zone" over Libya, which I, btw, correctly opposed,) the veto might've prevented a witch hunt.

I find that hard to believe. For the following reasons you've already outlined.

The Rebels aren't some monogamous group praying to Putin the Deity, or whatever bullshit the press is trying to peddle around; they're a collection of numerous groups, some of whom aren't very pro-Russian.

So why the worry about a witch hunt? The groups operating as part of the rebel forces are not monogamous. So who's going to stop their leaders from obstructing any actual prosecution if it does go ahead?

What's to prevent the US from targeting the most effective, pro-Russian Rebels, irrespective of that group's involvement with MH-17?

Why would they? We won't find out for sure, because Russia has already seen to this.

We can presume that the most likely scenario is that some Rebel faction mistakenly shot down the plane that was redirected to fly over a no-fly zone with captured Ukrainian BUKs.

There's a few issues with this. Firstly, it's not "presumed", it's pretty much confirmed. Secondly, there was no official no-fly zone over eastern Ukraine as a whole. Aircraft were prevented from flying below a certain altitude because of the risk posed by anti-aircraft fire at those lower altitudes. Thirdly, it was not redirected. It was the standard course Malaysia Airlines (and others) used to fly between Europe and southeast Asia.

[West Aurelia]

Good news. The Turkish stream bas been cancelled.

What?

[Dortmundia]

Good news. The Turkish stream bas been cancelled.

What?

The Turkish stream is a pipeline that was about to replace the originally South Stream. The difference between the two is that the later will go through Turkey, Greece and Macedonia to Hungary and Austria.

http://www.globalconstructionreview.com ... 2am0-8pip/

[West Aurelia]

What?

The Turkish stream is a pipeline that was about to replace the originally South Stream. The difference between the two is that the later will go through Turkey, Greece and Macedonia to Hungary and Austria.

http://www.globalconstructionreview.com ... 2am0-8pip/

Is this related to the Ukraine crisis?

[Dortmundia]

The Turkish stream is a pipeline that was about to replace the originally South Stream. The difference between the two is that the later will go through Turkey, Greece and Macedonia to Hungary and Austria.

http://www.globalconstructionreview.com ... 2am0-8pip/

Is this related to the Ukraine crisis?

Well, yes and no.

[Bojikami]

France just bought two Mistral heli-carriers.

[The balkens]

France just bought two Mistral heli-carriers.

Good.

[Byzantium Imperial]

France just bought two Mistral heli-carriers.

Those ships should be sitting in Sevastapol right now, but oh well.

[Vassenor]

France just bought two Mistral heli-carriers.

Those ships should be sitting in Sevastapol right now, but oh well.

Serves the Russians right for stomping on another sovereign nation just because they didn't agree with the change in government.

[Byzantium Imperial]

Those ships should be sitting in Sevastapol right now, but oh well.

Serves the Russians right for stomping on another sovereign nation just because they didn't agree with the change in government.

Now now, a minor territorial dispute in a former Soviet Satellite state is no excuse to break a contract, espessialy given the area in question that set this off is less then the size of Rhode Island that Russia has legitimate claims to.

[The balkens]

Serves the Russians right for stomping on another sovereign nation just because they didn't agree with the change in government.

Now now, a minor territorial dispute in a former Soviet Satellite state is no excuse to break a contract.

Indeed it is.