9 Dead in SC Church Shooting - Hate Crime Confirmed.

[Camicon]

Relevant?

Tangentially. That man's motivations were not Roof's motivations, which is the real point of discussion that's come out of this shooting.

[Dragonia Re Xzua]

I like how when a Muslim shoots up a place and causes casualties it's an act of terrorism, whereas when a white guy does it, it's either a "hate crime" or the guy was "mentally ill."

Here's a definition of terrorism:

the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.

Apparently, according to the source, it's not terrorism when a white guy does it, it's merely a hate crime.

[Gauthier]

I like how when a Muslim shoots up a place and causes casualties it's an act of terrorism, whereas when a white guy does it, it's either a "hate crime" or the guy was "mentally ill."

Here's a definition of terrorism:

the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.

Apparently, according to the source, it's not terrorism when a white guy does it, it's merely a hate crime.

Imagine the mental overload if a white Muslim convert shoots up or blows up a place.

[Mavorpen]

But nobody was actually killed. Their was deliberate removal from the process, mechanization and ambiguity.

Um, no. They actually thought there was someone being killed. Do you know what "ambiguity" means?

Plus it actually supports my point, and the research of Colonel Grossman.

No, no it doesn't.

"In Milgram's first set of experiments, 65 percent (26 of 40) of experiment participants administered the experiment's final massive 450-volt shock,[1] though many were very uncomfortable doing so; at some point, every participant paused and questioned the experiment; some said they would refund the money they were paid for participating in the experiment. Throughout the experiment, subjects displayed varying degrees of tension and stress. Subjects were sweating, trembling, stuttering, biting their lips, groaning, digging their fingernails into their skin, and some were even having nervous laughing fits or seizures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Milgram_experiment

Normal people do not want to kill, but can be convinced to kill under orders.

They weren't ordered to do it. Never were they told that they had to remain and continue.

But the case at hand was totally different, this murder was not acting under orders or direction.

So were the subjects in the Milgram study. Some of them looked back at the examiners for guidance, but the examiners weren't giving them explicit direction along the way nor were they given orders.

[Dyakovo]

Most people who believe in the Jewish Conspiracy aren't running a nation that's deeply in debt and suffering from high unemployment, both problems which can be ameliorated by eliminating the Jewish population.

Actually killing the Jews help destroy Nazi Germany and lose the war. Killing off your and exiling your best scientists and junior officers form the last war is not logical. And again most Germans did not want to kill all Jews. Hence why the Holocaust was conducted in secret, and the German population lied to.

Point out where in my post I said anything about it helping win the war...

[Atlanticatia]

Just like how white and black people use marijuana at the same rate but blacks are still more likely to be arrested and imprisoned. It's not like there is racism and bias in the criminal justice system, or anything...

That's not relevant, I'm just pointing something out. Yes, blacks tend to be the victims of more searches, more stop and frisks, etcs. Your point? Call me what you will, but I find it unjust as well.

I'm saying that there is no point of pointing out a false statistic.

[New DeCapito]

I vaguely remember a story a while back like this, but the skin colours were reversed (black shooter, white congregation). I wonder what the media thought of that?

[Salandriagado]

But no bullets. It's actually quite difficult to get hold of a gun that you can actually shoot in Switzerland. Significantly harder than in the US.

not really single shot rifles and shotguns require a permit that amounts to a background check, the trick is they require for private sales as well.

other firearms and especially carrying a firearm require a bit more, they have a "may issue" type permit instead of a "shall issue" type, that is they require you to show a reason you should have it.

Just getting rid of the absurd exception for private sales is already significantly better than the US.

[Mavorpen]

I vaguely remember a story a while back like this, but the skin colours were reversed (black shooter, white congregation). I wonder what the media thought of that?

It's bad and shouldn't happen?

[Nightkill the Emperor]

A magnificent quote I found.

"Those who live in America, or visit it, might do best to regard (mass shootings) the way one regards air pollution in China: an endemic local health hazard which, for deep-rooted cultural, social, economic and political reasons, the country is incapable of addressing. This may, however, be a bit unfair. China seems to be making progress on pollution."

[Novus America]

But nobody was actually killed. Their was deliberate removal from the process, mechanization and ambiguity.

Um, no. They actually thought there was someone being killed. Do you know what "ambiguity" means?

Plus it actually supports my point, and the research of Colonel Grossman.

No, no it doesn't.

"In Milgram's first set of experiments, 65 percent (26 of 40) of experiment participants administered the experiment's final massive 450-volt shock,[1] though many were very uncomfortable doing so; at some point, every participant paused and questioned the experiment; some said they would refund the money they were paid for participating in the experiment. Throughout the experiment, subjects displayed varying degrees of tension and stress. Subjects were sweating, trembling, stuttering, biting their lips, groaning, digging their fingernails into their skin, and some were even having nervous laughing fits or seizures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Milgram_experiment

Normal people do not want to kill, but can be convinced to kill under orders.

They weren't ordered to do it. Never were they told that they had to remain and continue.

But the case at hand was totally different, this murder was not acting under orders or direction.

So were the subjects in the Milgram study. Some of them looked back at the examiners for guidance, but the examiners weren't giving them explicit direction along the way nor were they given orders.

Bull shit.

"The subjects believed that for each wrong answer, the learner was receiving actual shocks. In reality, there were no shocks. After the confederate was separated from the subject, the confederate set up a tape recorder integrated with the electroshock generator, which played prerecorded sounds for each shock level. After a number of voltage-level increases, the actor started to bang on the wall that separated him from the subject. After several times banging on the wall and complaining about his heart condition, all responses by the learner would cease.[1]

At this point, many people indicated their desire to stop the experiment and check on the learner."

So their was ambiguity, the though they may have killed the learner, and wanted to checked to see if the learner was actually killed.

And they were given explicit orders to continue.

"If at any time the subject indicated his desire to halt the experiment, he was given a succession of verbal prods by the experimenter, in this order:[1]
1.Please continue.
2.The experiment requires that you continue.
3.It is absolutely essential that you continue.
4.You have no other choice, you must go on."

"Ordinary people, simply doing their jobs, and without any particular hostility on their part, can become agents in a terrible destructive process. Moreover, even when the destructive effects of their work become patently clear, and they are asked to carry out actions incompatible with fundamental standards of morality, relatively few people have the resources needed to resist authority."

The Milgram experiment (misnamed, should be simulation) clearly does not apply to this murderer.

And again I am not sure why he even needed to do considering Himmler had already conducted and documented real experimentation.


"After a time, Himmler found that the killing methods used by the Einsatzgruppen were inefficient: they were costly, demoralising for the troops, and sometimes did not kill the victims quickly enough.[99] Many of the troops found the massacres to be difficult if not impossible to perform. Some of the perpetrators suffered physical and mental health problems, and many turned to drink.[100] Browning notes three categories of potential perpetrators: those who were eager to participate right from the start, those who participated in spite of moral qualms because they were ordered to do so, and a significant minority who refused to take part.[101] A few men spontaneously became excessively brutal in their killing methods and their zeal for the task. Commander of Einsatzgruppe D, SS-Gruppenführer Otto Ohlendorf, particularly noted this propensity towards excess, and ordered that any man who was too eager to participate or too brutal should not perform any further executions.[102]

During a visit to Minsk in August 1941, Himmler witnessed an Einsatzgruppen mass execution first-hand and concluded that shooting Jews was too stressful for his men.[103] By November he made arrangements for any SS men suffering ill health from having participated in executions should be provided with rest and mental health care.[104] He also decided a transition should be made to gassing the victims, especially the women and children, and ordered the recruitment of expendable native auxiliaries who could assist with the murders.[104][105] Gas vans, which had been used previously to kill mental patients, began to see service by all four main Einsatzgruppen from 1942.[106] However, the gas vans were not popular with the Einsatzkommandos, because removing the dead bodies from the van and burying them was a horrible ordeal. Prisoners or auxiliaries were often assigned to do this task so as to spare the SS men the trauma.[107] Some of the early mass killings at extermination camps used carbon monoxide fumes produced by diesel engines, similar to the method used in gas vans, but by as early as September 1941 experiments were begun at Auschwitz using Zyklon B, a cyanide-based pesticide gas.[108]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsatzgruppen


Not that it disproves my point. Dr. Milgram himself said he normal people do not kill with hostility or on their own accord.
This guy did.

And clearly you are the one who needs to better understand the Milgram experiment. So maybe do a little reading next time. Not sure what your professor told you but it looks like it was wrong.

Again we have 3 sources, Dr. Milgram, Colonel Grossman, and Himmler saying the same thing. Normal do not kill on their own accord, do not like killing, and when required to "kill" (of the 3 Dr. Miligram only relied on simulation rather than actual results of real experiments) suffer adverse psychological effects.

[Aidannadia]

US soldiers kill civilians and soldiers abroad under the belief that what they are doing is right, regardless of whether it is or not. Are a state's soldiers entirely made of the insane?

[Mavorpen]

Bull shit.


"The subjects believed that for each wrong answer, the learner was receiving actual shocks. In reality, there were no shocks. After the confederate was separated from the subject, the confederate set up a tape recorder integrated with the electroshock generator, which played prerecorded sounds for each shock level. After a number of voltage-level increases, the actor started to bang on the wall that separated him from the subject. After several times banging on the wall and complaining about his heart condition, all responses by the learner would cease.[1]

At this point, many people indicated their desire to stop the experiment and check on the learner."

So their was ambiguity, the though they may have killed the learner, and wanted to checked to see if the learner was actually killed.

Oh you meant THAT kind of ambiguity?

...Okay? And? Even if they had been facing an actual person and pushed the voltage to a lethal level, saw the person collapse to the ground and not moving, they STILL would have checked to see if they'd been actually killed. When you see someone collapse in front of you, you don't say "oh well, they're dead." You check.

And they were given explicit orders to continue.
"If at any time the subject indicated his desire to halt the experiment, he was given a succession of verbal prods by the experimenter, in this order:[1]
1.Please continue.
2.The experiment requires that you continue.
3.It is absolutely essential that you continue.
4.You have no other choice, you must go on."

Those aren't orders. They are, as described, "verbal prods."

"Ordinary people, simply doing their jobs, and without any particular hostility on their part, can become agents in a terrible destructive process. Moreover, even when the destructive effects of their work become patently clear, and they are asked to carry out actions incompatible with fundamental standards of morality, relatively few people have the resources needed to resist authority."

Good job. You can quote.

The Milgram experiment (misnamed, should be simulation)

Jesus christ you really don't understand science.

clearly does not apply to this murderer.

Who the fuck said it did?

And again I am not sure why he even needed to do considering Himmler had already conducted and documented real experimentation.

"Real experimentation." Jesus christ you really don't understand science.

Woah, deja vu.

[Hurtful Thoughts]

Relevant?

Tangentially. That man's motivations were not Roof's motivations, which is the real point of discussion that's come out of this shooting.

Guy apparently hated immigrants.

Just like how white and black people use marijuana at the same rate but blacks are still more likely to be arrested and imprisoned. It's not like there is racism and bias in the criminal justice system, or anything...

Let's have a white child run around with a realistic-looking toy gun and see if he gets tangoed down in short order.

The kid has literally 2 seconds to drop the gun upon arrival of police, or roughly 0.75 seconds after they tell them to drop.

Sometimes, they have bad aim, though.

The teen holding the replica weapon was unharmed, but the 15-year-old boy standing next to him was struck [in the back], Smith said.

[MERIZoC]

Just like how white and black people use marijuana at the same rate but blacks are still more likely to be arrested and imprisoned. It's not like there is racism and bias in the criminal justice system, or anything...

Let's have a white child run around with a realistic-looking toy gun and see if he gets tangoed down in short order.

Well...

[Cabana]

Let's have a white child run around with a realistic-looking toy gun and see if he gets tangoed down in short order.

Well...

That kid isn't white.

[MERIZoC]

Well...

That kid isn't white.

Look at the picture.

[Exaystror]

They caught him now

[Hurtful Thoughts]

Well...

That kid isn't white.

The kid in my example was, he also wasn't even the one holding the airsoft.

Some of our finest really are so bad at protecting people that entire departments have crossed that off their list of "things police-officers should do".

[MERIZoC]

They caught him now

They caught him yesterday morning.

[Hurtful Thoughts]

They caught him now

They caught him yesterday morning.

So, about those two max-security escapees from NY...

[Mavorpen]

And clearly you are the one who needs to better understand the Milgram experiment.

Erm, no. I've actually had to read it. You, a guy copy and pasting shit from the Wikipedia page with no background knowledge or context, aren't in a position to tell me I need a better understanding of it.

So maybe do a little reading next time.

You know, projection is also a concept in psychology.

Not sure what your professor told you but it looks like it was wrong.

Ah, yes, I'll be sure to let my Psychology professor with a master's in the field that some random person on the internet getting his information from wikipedia that he knows more than she does.

Again we have 3 sources, Dr. Milgram, Colonel Grossman, and Himmler saying the same thing.

No, we don't.

Normal do not kill on their own accord, do not like killing, and when required to "kill"

The Dr. Milgram study said absolutely nothing of the sort. What it ACTUALLY said is that anyone, any normal, sane, and ordinary person, can be placed in a situation by which they commit horrible acts by following what they perceive to be an authoritative figure.

(of the 3 Dr. Miligram only relied on simulation rather than actual results of real experiments) suffer adverse psychological effects.

Can I just tell you how happy I am that you aren't pursuing a field in the sciences? Or at least, I hope you aren't.

[Aidannadia]

They caught him yesterday morning.

So, about those two max-security escapees from NY...

Do elaborate.

[The Flutterlands]

Yet, not oddly enough, conservatives like FOX News say that the shootings weren't racially motivated.

[Gauthier]

Yet, not oddly enough, conservatives like FOX News say that the shootings weren't racially motivated.

"I want to kill black people to start a race war" really means "I want to oppress Christianity" clearly.