9 Dead in SC Church Shooting - Hate Crime Confirmed.

[Novus America]

Read. The. Source. You can read, rather than me explaining it.

Your source is problematic. It claims corroboration on key points, which it fails to document, it explains that the initial study was functionally flawed, and it doesn't actually support most of your platform.

What it does say, is that there are obstacles that people may have to overcome obstacles in order to choose to kill on command - and that is probably true in most people.

What it does not say is that the answer to this conundrum is mental illness.

You need to actually read the book (which has footnotes), not just the article. Again it is based on actual events, and it use much more than that one study, it goes back to the Civil War. And it is based on actual empirical evidence.

But it does prove my point. Normal sane people do not usually kill on their own volition. Going out and committing mass murder is not normal human behavior and against the why a normal sane person thinks.

[Mavorpen]

But it does prove my point. Normal sane people do not usually kill on their own volition. Going out and committing mass murder is not normal human behavior and against the why a normal sane person thinks.

You think a single book with a hypothesis that's not corroborated by any other studies proves your argument, while there's decades of research supporting the opposing stance?

[Grave_n_idle]

You have offered no sources. And this is a complicated subject not without controversy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Milgram_experiment
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_ ... experiment
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conf ... xperiments
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology_of_Violence

The condition of violence is not alien and does not need to be tripped by brainwashing - although that CAN be a route. It doesn't necessitate mental illness, although that CAN be a factor.

We are a species of easily-led routine-conformers, who will deceive and harm one another with little or no external provocation, and we are an innately violent species.

You need to stop pretending it's about mental illness, because a mental state that is overwhelmingly prevalent is by definition NORMAL, not 'abnormal'.

[Blakk Metal]

Jon Stewart's commentary was amazing.

No, it was nothing but lies and implied lies.

[Hurtful Thoughts]

But it does prove my point. Normal sane people do not usually kill on their own volition. Going out and committing mass murder is not normal human behavior and against the why a normal sane person thinks.

You think a single book with a hypothesis that's not corroborated by any other studies proves your argument, while there's decades of research supporting the opposing stance?

You guys talking about the Millgram experiments regarding how easy peer-pressure can drive a person to knowingly inflict harm on another human being, blue-eyes/brown-eyes where social-pressures can drive a person to hate for arbitrary reasons, or the [banned for ethical and health reasons] prison experiment showing just to what depths a person with absolute authority over another person (w/o accountability for the actions they order them to do) can go to (it also mirrored the Millgram's pee-pressure/submissive study, except as noted, it took a horrific turn of events)?

The last one pretty much was the RL equivalent to the creepypasta Russian Sleep Experiment.

[Mavorpen]

You think a single book with a hypothesis that's not corroborated by any other studies proves your argument, while there's decades of research supporting the opposing stance?

You guys talking about the Millgram experiments, blue-eyes/brown-eyes, or the [banned for ethical reasons] prison experiment?

Yes.

i.e. all of the above

[Grave_n_idle]

You need to actually read the book (which has footnotes), not just the article.

I don't need to read it, at all. I probably will, because this is one of my fields of study - but the only person here who [i]needs[/]i to read it... is you. Because your 'evidence' is an article talking ABOUT it, not actual data FROM it.

Again it is based on actual events, and it use much more than that one study, it goes back to the Civil War. And it is based on actual empirical evidence.

And, as already explained, it's methodology has been described as flawed. If it's not systematic, it's not scientifically rigourous - and that does a lot of harm to it's scientific validity.

But it does prove my point. Normal sane people do not usually kill on their own volition.

That's not what the article says.

Going out and committing mass murder is not normal human behavior and against the why a normal sane person thinks.

No one is saying'mass murder' is normal behaviour, but you've yet to prove that it's not 'sane'.

[Grave_n_idle]

Jon Stewart's commentary was amazing.

No, it was nothing but lies and implied lies.

I've not seen it - can you explain what it got wrong, so I can independently verify it?

[Redsection]

Im not even white but why is it we never here of black on white crimes.

[Imperializt Russia]

Im not even white but why is it we never here of black on white crimes.

Blacks don't have the luxury of surrender.

[Hurtful Thoughts]

Im not even white but why is it we never here of black on white crimes.

k, everyone open your textbooks to the chapter on Malcolm X and the Mark Essex hotel shooting.

[Liberty and Linguistics]

Im not even white but why is it we never here of black on white crimes.

Likely because this is much more common, at least in terms of violent crime, than white on black crimes. Whatever the case, all forms of violent crimes, especially those carried out by a white supremacist lunatic, are abhorrent and deserve the utmost condemnation.

Now, I'm not implying anything regarding my first statement, I'm merely saying that generally, black on white crimes are common, and are generally not hate crimes. Sauce.

And, yes, I can use wikipedia as a source, as most wikipedia articles compile large numbers of sources into one giant factual page.

[Blakk Metal]

Im not even white

Sure you aren't.

but why is it we never here of black on white crimes.

It's too expected.

[Gauthier]

NRA board member literally blames a victim for this shooting.

Bull.
Motherfucking.
Shit.

What happened to the cool non-retarded NRA of the seventies?

Wow. "Gun Control Freaks" and "Nigger Had It Coming" in a combo package.

[Atlanticatia]

No, it was nothing but lies and implied lies.

I've not seen it - can you explain what it got wrong, so I can independently verify it?

http://uproxx.com/tv/2015/06/video-jon- ... aily-show/ It was very good

[Gauthier]

Im not even white but why is it we never here of black on white crimes.

The way some white people like Roof talk about blacks, you'd think every single pubescent black male in the country is raping the nearest white woman available.

[Imperializt Russia]

You think a single book with a hypothesis that's not corroborated by any other studies proves your argument, while there's decades of research supporting the opposing stance?

You guys talking about the Millgram experiments regarding how easy peer-pressure can drive a person to knowingly inflict harm on another human being, blue-eyes/brown-eyes where social-pressures can drive a person to hate for arbitrary reasons, or the [banned for ethical and health reasons] prison experiment showing just to what depths a person with absolute authority over another person (w/o accountability for the actions they order them to do) can go to (it also mirrored the Millgram's pee-pressure/submissive study, except as noted, it took a horrific turn of events)?

The last one pretty much was the RL equivalent to the creepypasta Russian Sleep Experiment.

I'm amazed by how in six days the study went from awkward cosplay to full-on prison riot.

[Liberty and Linguistics]

Im not even white but why is it we never here of black on white crimes.

The way some white people like Roof talk about blacks, you'd think every single pubescent black male in the country is raping the nearest white woman available.

That's a stretch, but africans aee over represented in rape crimes here in the US.

[Redsection]

I really am not white, my skin is brown. Im an freaking american indian people mixed with some spanish and ok maybe an tiny bit of white. No its not sun tan.

You call an shooting violent then look at this

( ://www.amren.com/news/2007/05/the_knoxville_h/)

( http://www.knoxnews.com/news/local-news ... s-in-focus)

[Atlanticatia]

The way some white people like Roof talk about blacks, you'd think every single pubescent black male in the country is raping the nearest white woman available.

That's a stretch, but africans aee over represented in rape crimes here in the US.

Just like how white and black people use marijuana at the same rate but blacks are still more likely to be arrested and imprisoned. It's not like there is racism and bias in the criminal justice system, or anything...

[Novus America]

I was typing on my phone, and my spell check is acting crazy.

Psychology. You know what I met.

Now stop dodging the issue.
Thought experiments cannot replicate really killing people.

Milgram Experiment.

I know you're dodging that study every time I mention it because you don't have any basic knowledge about the topic, but I can't help but repeat it again.

Dodge this.

The Milgram experiment did not perfectly replicate killing. It tried to come as close as possible. In the military studies people were really killed.

In the Milgram they did not actually kill people. They were removed from the process using a button, could not see the "victim". Hence the move to gas chambers for the Nazis.

"After a time, Himmler found that the killing methods used by the Einsatzgruppen were inefficient: they were costly, demoralising for the troops, and sometimes did not kill the victims quickly enough.[99] Many of the troops found the massacres to be difficult if not impossible to perform. Some of the perpetrators suffered physical and mental health problems, and many turned to drink.[100] Browning notes three categories of potential perpetrators: those who were eager to participate right from the start, those who participated in spite of moral qualms because they were ordered to do so, and a significant minority who refused to take part.[101] A few men spontaneously became excessively brutal in their killing methods and their zeal for the task. Commander of Einsatzgruppe D, SS-Gruppenführer Otto Ohlendorf, particularly noted this propensity towards excess, and ordered that any man who was too eager to participate or too brutal should not perform any further executions.[102]

During a visit to Minsk in August 1941, Himmler witnessed an Einsatzgruppen mass execution first-hand and concluded that shooting Jews was too stressful for his men.[103] By November he made arrangements for any SS men suffering ill health from having participated in executions should be provided with rest and mental health care.[104] He also decided a transition should be made to gassing the victims, especially the women and children, and ordered the recruitment of expendable native auxiliaries who could assist with the murders.[104][105] Gas vans, which had been used previously to kill mental patients, began to see service by all four main Einsatzgruppen from 1942.[106] However, the gas vans were not popular with the Einsatzkommandos, because removing the dead bodies from the van and burying them was a horrible ordeal. Prisoners or auxiliaries were often assigned to do this task so as to spare the SS men the trauma.[107] Some of the early mass killings at extermination camps used carbon monoxide fumes produced by diesel engines, similar to the method used in gas vans, but by as early as September 1941 experiments were begun at Auschwitz using Zyklon B, a cyanide-based pesticide gas.[108]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsatzgruppen

It is easier to get people to kill when they do not see the results, knife killing vs. long range rifle killing, vs, killing with a missile and a button are different, and the more removed you are the easier it is.

And again the Milgram experiment, which is highly controversial, does not disprove normal people do not kill on their own volition, people can be convinced to kill of course.

Simply saying the name of an controversial experiment that does not disprove my point and does not disprove that the man who committed these murders was insane. In fact it supports my point, as normal people need to be prodded and told they have no choice.

And I am well aware of how science works. To actually prove something you have to actually demonstrate it. A model or simulation alone is not enough, you need to test the theory in reality.

You have to make people really kill to see what really happens. Now of course in your class you will not actually kill, that would not be ethical or sane. And you do not need to as other people like Himmler have done the experimental work for you.

[Liberty and Linguistics]

That's a stretch, but africans aee over represented in rape crimes here in the US.

Just like how white and black people use marijuana at the same rate but blacks are still more likely to be arrested and imprisoned. It's not like there is racism and bias in the criminal justice system, or anything...

That's not relevant, I'm just pointing something out. Yes, blacks tend to be the victims of more searches, more stop and frisks, etcs. Your point? Call me what you will, but I find it unjust as well.

[Novus America]

I was typing on my phone, and my spell check is acting crazy.

Psychology. You know what I met.

Now stop dodging the issue.
Thought experiments cannot replicate really killing people.

In the Milgram experiment, people honestly thought they were killing people.

But nobody was actually killed. Their was deliberate removal from the process, mechanization and ambiguity.

Plus it actually supports my point, and the research of Colonel Grossman.

"In Milgram's first set of experiments, 65 percent (26 of 40) of experiment participants administered the experiment's final massive 450-volt shock,[1] though many were very uncomfortable doing so; at some point, every participant paused and questioned the experiment; some said they would refund the money they were paid for participating in the experiment. Throughout the experiment, subjects displayed varying degrees of tension and stress. Subjects were sweating, trembling, stuttering, biting their lips, groaning, digging their fingernails into their skin, and some were even having nervous laughing fits or seizures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Milgram_experiment

See? Normal people do not want to do it. Besides in science no amount of simulation can replace actual experimentation. You can run a computer simulation of a rocket on a computer, but to actually see if it works you have to build and launch the rocket.

Normal people do not want to kill, but can be convinced to kill under orders. But the case at hand was totally different, this murder was not acting under orders or direction.

[Hurtful Thoughts]

Relevant?

[Gauthier]

That's a stretch, but africans aee over represented in rape crimes here in the US.

Just like how white and black people use marijuana at the same rate but blacks are still more likely to be arrested and imprisoned. It's not like there is racism and bias in the criminal justice system, or anything...

Let's have a white child run around with a realistic-looking toy gun and see if he gets tangoed down in short order.