9 Dead in SC Church Shooting - Hate Crime Confirmed.

[Novus America]

Yes! He did numerous activities based on this belief that would have made no sense otherwise.

It makes plenty of sense. "Jewish conspiracy" is a very common irrational belief. It is not caused by mental instability, but mental instabilities can exacerbate a person's perception of this belief.

There is no substantive evidence that Hitler was mentally unstable.
He was a deeply irrational man, believing in a deeply irrational and abhorrent ideology in which he misunderstood, amongst other things, heredity and the principle of survival of the fittest.

Most people who believe in the Jewish Conspiracy BS do not go try and kill all Jews.

[Novus America]

See above. The Nazis covered up the Holocaust knowing that even brainwashed normal people would not accept it. They turned to gas chambers as they found many troops were unwilling to carry out massacres or suffered mental breakdowns after.

But this guy is totally different. He was not ordered to shoot up a church and directed by a chain of command using phycological techniques. He did this on his own volition. Again is Charles Manson sane?

Mental illness is not what made Roof hate black people. Its not what motivated him to commit an act that was, in concert: a hate crime, a political assassination, and domestic terrorism.

An insane person can do all those things. Sane people do not on their own initiative.

[Imperializt Russia]

Because many of them do not subscribe to ideologies in which they believe the Jews to be inferior and must be exterminated.
Some do. These people kill Jews.

[Our Governator]

I read in an NBC report that he actually considered not shooting them because they were all such nice people. That sort of a thing just stabs me in the chest emotionally.

[Blakk Metal]

Yes! He did numerous activities based on this belief that would have made no sense otherwise.

Why was he insane for holding that belief? It was factually incorrect, sure, but because of the treaties that came out of the Paris Peace Conference, Germany did get screwed over by the Western powers for a very long time. It may not have been Jewish people who orchestrated it, and it may not have been a conspiracy, but it definitely could have looked like one.

No it could not have. Hitler knew that Belgium and Northern France were treated abhorrently when German occupied and therefore Hitler should not have been shocked in the slightest by the Treaty of Versailles.

Because many of them do not subscribe to ideologies in which they believe the Jews to be inferior malicious and must be exterminated.
Some do. These people kill Jews.

Corrected.

[Camicon]

Mental illness is not what made Roof hate black people. Its not what motivated him to commit an act that was, in concert: a hate crime, a political assassination, and domestic terrorism.

An insane person can do all those things. Sane people do not on their own initiative.

[citation needed]

[Imperializt Russia]

I read in an NBC report that he actually considered not shooting them because they were all such nice people. That sort of a thing just stabs me in the chest emotionally.

From an early report I read, it seems that he was participating in the bible meet session for upwards of an hour before committing the shooting.
That was yesterday though, not sure if it was correct.

[Dyakovo]

It makes plenty of sense. "Jewish conspiracy" is a very common irrational belief. It is not caused by mental instability, but mental instabilities can exacerbate a person's perception of this belief.

There is no substantive evidence that Hitler was mentally unstable.
He was a deeply irrational man, believing in a deeply irrational and abhorrent ideology in which he misunderstood, amongst other things, heredity and the principle of survival of the fittest.

Most people who believe in the Jewish Conspiracy BS do not go try and kill all Jews.

Most people who believe in the Jewish Conspiracy aren't running a nation that's deeply in debt and suffering from high unemployment, both problems which can be ameliorated by eliminating the Jewish population.

[Imperializt Russia]

Because many of them do not subscribe to ideologies in which they believe the Jews to be inferior malicious and must be exterminated.
Some do. These people kill Jews.

Corrected.

Entirely unnecessarily.

[Blakk Metal]

Corrected.

Entirely unnecessarily.

'Inferior' and 'malicious' are not synonyms.

[Grave_n_idle]

Stanford Prison Experiment? Milgram's Obedience Study? Any of that ring a bell, people? You don't have to suffer from some inherent mental illness to do horrible things. ANYONE is capable of any of these things given the right set of circumstances.

True. People are a very flawed creation.

But people prefer to ignore the evidence of just how we are built because it's uncomfortable.

[Camicon]

Why was he insane for holding that belief? It was factually incorrect, sure, but because of the treaties that came out of the Paris Peace Conference, Germany did get screwed over by the Western powers for a very long time. It may not have been Jewish people who orchestrated it, and it may not have been a conspiracy, but it definitely could have looked like one.

No it could not have. Hitler knew that Belgium and Northern France were treated abhorrently when German occupied and therefore Hitler should not have been shocked in the slightest by the Treaty of Versailles.

Because many of them do not subscribe to ideologies in which they believe the Jews to be inferior malicious and must be exterminated.
Some do. These people kill Jews.

Corrected.

Oddly enough, even in a time period where we can access factually correct information about virtually any topic, within minutes, without leaving the comfort of our own bed, people still believe things that are factually incorrect and have been proven as such many times over. I think it is very likely that Hitler believed Germany had been greatly wronged by the terms that came out of the Paris Peace Conference (they actually were), and that he blamed Jewish people for it (a widely accepted sentiment of the time) is not all that surprising.

Nothing about that suggests he was insane.

[Dyakovo]

Mental illness is not what made Roof hate black people. Its not what motivated him to commit an act that was, in concert: a hate crime, a political assassination, and domestic terrorism.

An insane person can do all those things. Sane people do not on their own initiative.

Okay. You're clearly setting yourself up as an expert here... What, in your professional opinion, mental illness is he suffering from. Be sure to list all the symptoms that led you to this diagnosis.

[Mavorpen]

Read. The. Source. You can read, rather than me explaining it.

I did read it. I'm not seeing anything that justifies you relying on it so much. I'm still laughing at this:

Grossman's theory, based on the World War II research of S.L.A. Marshall, is that most of the population deeply resists killing another human. While Marshall's work has been shown to be unsystematic, his findings have been corroborated by many later studies.[where?]

Can you fill in the blanks and find some other sources? Because this source doesn't match up with decades of research performed in Psychology.

Wait a minute, I just realized that David Grossman is one of the big proponents of the idea that video games and violent movies are bad and causes people to become violent murderers.

Come on, give me someone I can take even REMOTELY seriously.

[Novus America]

Read. The. Source. You can read, rather than me explaining it.

I did read it. I'm not seeing anything that justifies you relying on it so much. I'm still laughing at this:

Grossman's theory, based on the World War II research of S.L.A. Marshall, is that most of the population deeply resists killing another human. While Marshall's work has been shown to be unsystematic, his findings have been corroborated by many later studies.[where?]

Can you fill in the blanks and find some other sources? Because this source doesn't match up with decades of research performed in Psychology.

You have offered no sources. And this is a complicated subject not without controversy.

But the source explains it, normal people do not want to kill, so you have to condition them to do it. And they suffered PTSD as a result. Normal people do not kill on their own initiative.

And you biggest problems is you rely on thought experiments and games. Try getting somebody to really kill. How many people did you you actually kill in your psychology class?

To really figure out how it works you have to really make people kill, pull the trigger and watch someone die. Naturally psychology researchers do not do this.

[Dyakovo]

I did read it. I'm not seeing anything that justifies you relying on it so much. I'm still laughing at this:



Can you fill in the blanks and find some other sources? Because this source doesn't match up with decades of research performed in Psychology.

You have offered no sources. And this is a complicated subject not without controversy.

But the source explains it, normal people do not want to kill, so you have to condition them to do it. And they suffered PTSD as a result. Normal people do not kill on their own initiative.

And you biggest problems is you rely on thought experiments and games. Try getting somebody to really kill. How many people did you you actually kill in you phycology class?

To really figure out how it works you have to really make people kill, pull the trigger and watch someone die. Naturally phycology researchers do not do this.

Phycology?

[Novus America]

Most people who believe in the Jewish Conspiracy BS do not go try and kill all Jews.

Most people who believe in the Jewish Conspiracy aren't running a nation that's deeply in debt and suffering from high unemployment, both problems which can be ameliorated by eliminating the Jewish population.

Actually killing the Jews help destroy Nazi Germany and lose the war. Killing off your and exiling your best scientists and junior officers form the last war is not logical. And again most Germans did not want to kill all Jews. Hence why the Holocaust was conducted in secret, and the German population lied to.

[Camicon]

Most people who believe in the Jewish Conspiracy aren't running a nation that's deeply in debt and suffering from high unemployment, both problems which can be ameliorated by eliminating the Jewish population.

Actually killing the Jews help destroy Nazi Germany and lose the war. Killing off your and exiling your best scientists and junior officers form the last war is not logical. And again most Germans did not want to kill all Jews. Hence why the Holocaust was conducted in secret, and the German population lied to.

You really, really don't know anything about the motivations behind the Holocaust, do you?

[Novus America]

You have offered no sources. And this is a complicated subject not without controversy.

But the source explains it, normal people do not want to kill, so you have to condition them to do it. And they suffered PTSD as a result. Normal people do not kill on their own initiative.

And you biggest problems is you rely on thought experiments and games. Try getting somebody to really kill. How many people did you you actually kill in you phycology class?

To really figure out how it works you have to really make people kill, pull the trigger and watch someone die. Naturally phycology researchers do not do this.

Phycology?

I was typing on my phone, and my spell check is acting crazy.

Psychology. You know what I met.

Now stop dodging the issue.
Thought experiments cannot replicate really killing people.

[Grave_n_idle]

What?

It takes massive resources to do anything on a large scale, period. It has nothing to do with because normal people are saints and don't have impure thoughts.

What about it?

Read. The. Source. You can read, rather than me explaining it.

Your source is problematic. It claims corroboration on key points, which it fails to document, it explains that the initial study was functionally flawed, and it doesn't actually support most of your platform.

What it does say, is that there are obstacles that people may have to overcome obstacles in order to choose to kill on command - and that is probably true in most people.

What it does not say is that the answer to this conundrum is mental illness.

[Mavorpen]

You have offered no sources.

It doesn't take much to convince the vast majority of people to do something "insane." Again, see studies that anyone that's taken a basic Psychology course should know about such as the Milgram Experiment and the Stanford Prison Study.

k

And this is a complicated subject not without controversy.

Not really...

But the source explains it, normal people do not want to kill, so you have to condition them to do it.

Yeah, yeah, that's what you keep telling me and what this guy hypothesizes. I'm asking you for additional sources to substantiate this claim. Because my argument is based on work by Milgram that was corroborated by later studies. One study by some guy does not refute decades of research.

And they suffered PTSD as a result.

As a result of what, specifically?

Normal people do not kill on their own initiative.

This isn't the argument. The argument is whether they do it given the right circumstances.

And you biggest problems is you rely on thought experiments and games.

The hell are you talking about?

Try getting somebody to really kill. How many people did you you actually kill in you phycology class?

Did anyone else hear that? That was the sound of me facepalming.

To really figure out how it works you have to really make people kill, pull the trigger and watch someone die. Naturally phycology researchers do not do this.

You don't know how science works, do you?

[Imperializt Russia]

Phycology?

I was typing on my phone, and my spell check is acting crazy.

Psychology. You know what I met.

Now stop dodging the issue.
Thought experiments cannot replicate really killing people.

In the Milgram experiment, people honestly thought they were killing people.

[Mavorpen]

Phycology?

I was typing on my phone, and my spell check is acting crazy.

Psychology. You know what I met.

Now stop dodging the issue.
Thought experiments cannot replicate really killing people.

Milgram Experiment.

I know you're dodging that study every time I mention it because you don't have any basic knowledge about the topic, but I can't help but repeat it again.

[Mavorpen]

I was typing on my phone, and my spell check is acting crazy.

Psychology. You know what I met.

Now stop dodging the issue.
Thought experiments cannot replicate really killing people.

In the Milgram experiment, people honestly thought they were killing people.

And not only that, but essentially torturing them while they could actually hear the screams and pleading of the other person.

[Atlanticatia]

Jon Stewart's commentary was amazing.