9 Dead in SC Church Shooting - Hate Crime Confirmed.

[Mavorpen]

Yes, terrible things are done by sane rational people. An SS soldier doing what he is told by those he is conditioned to obey against those he is conditioned to hate. Do you know why the Nazis turned to gas chambers? To make it less metally stressful on the SS soldiers, the normal ones who despite their conditioning were discovered to suffer adverse effects from being made to commit such acts. Normal people even when ordered and conditioned to these things recoil from it.

But this shooter does not fit this profile at all. He was not ordered, he did this on his own initiative and volition.

Are you going to sit there and tell me that every Nazi soldier was forced to act as they did. That being ordered to do terrible things somehow makes them less culpable? Boyo, you know absolutely nothing about what you're talking about.

And I'd like to know what he means by "conditioning." It's not like Hitler kidnapped the solders from their homes as children and then put them in a camp to hypnotize them or something.

[Mavorpen]

And the people who followed him? And the German citizens who agreed with him and allowed him to do as he pleased? What about them?

See above. The Nazis covered up the Holocaust knowing that even brainwashed normal people would not accept it. They turned to gas chambers as they found many troops were unwilling to carry out massacres or suffered mental breakdowns after.

But this guy is totally different. He was not ordered to shoot up a church and directed by a chain of command using phycological techniques. He did this on his own volition. Again is Charles Manson sane?

Similarly, see above. Where are you getting this stuff from?

[Novus America]

No, he was very well insane. He believed there was international conspiracy of Jews working to screw him and his country over for shits and giggles.

And YEC's believe that the Earth was created 10,000 years ago. Does that mean they are insane?

Believing factually incorrect information to be true does not make a person insane. It makes them wrong.

YECs do not generally commit mass murder. Being wrong is one thing. I have been factually wrong, but never slaughtered people.

[Camicon]

And the people who followed him? And the German citizens who agreed with him and allowed him to do as he pleased? What about them?

See above. The Nazis covered up the Holocaust knowing that even brainwashed normal people would not accept it. They turned to gas chambers as they found many troops were unwilling to carry out massacres or suffered mental breakdowns after.

But this guy is totally different. He was not ordered to shoot up a church and directed by a chain of command using phycological techniques. He did this on his own volition. Again is Charles Manson sane?

Mental illness is not what made Roof hate black people. Its not what motivated him to commit an act that was, in concert: a hate crime, a political assassination, and domestic terrorism.

[Ifreann]

So, if I follow you, he's obviously mentally unstable, but he's also so competent that no possible action by anyone at any stage could possibly have kept him from carrying out this attack. How's that work?

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It's not a conspiracy, it's just racism.

No it fucking isn't. It's the opposite, if anything.

Mental instability and incompetence don't always go hand and hand. Plus it's not like this was an extensively detailed plan ether. From the information I've been able to read he got a gun from his dad and shot the place up, his motivations might be complex but his actions aren't.

But you're saying he would have gotten a gun no matter what. How can that possibly be? Could no one at any point have recognised his obvious mental instability and decided not to give him a gun? Could no one at any point have recognised his obvious mental instability and taken steps to prevent him from getting a gun by some other means?

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So, if I follow you, he's obviously mentally unstable, but he's also so competent that no possible action by anyone at any stage could possibly have kept him from carrying out this attack. How's that work?

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Being Mentally ill =/= inability to be cunning.

Apparently mental illness(not any particular mental illness, mind, just the vague sort that can be diagnosed over the internet) gives one cunning beyond the capabilities of mere mortals.

[Camicon]

Are you going to sit there and tell me that every Nazi soldier was forced to act as they did. That being ordered to do terrible things somehow makes them less culpable? Boyo, you know absolutely nothing about what you're talking about.

And I'd like to know what he means by "conditioning." It's not like Hitler kidnapped the solders from their homes as children and then put them in a camp to hypnotize them or something.

I think he means "socially conditioned". It's a stupid argument, because Hitler was socially conditioned as well.

And YEC's believe that the Earth was created 10,000 years ago. Does that mean they are insane?

Believing factually incorrect information to be true does not make a person insane. It makes them wrong.

YECs do not generally commit mass murder. Being wrong is one thing. I have been factually wrong, but never slaughtered people.

That's not the point I was making. Blakk said that Hitler was factually incorrect about a Jewish conspiracy against Germany, and that was why he was insane. I pointed out that being factually incorrect does not make you insane, using YEC's as an example.

[Novus America]

Are you going to sit there and tell me that every Nazi soldier was forced to act as they did. That being ordered to do terrible things somehow makes them less culpable? Boyo, you know absolutely nothing about what you're talking about.

And I'd like to know what he means by "conditioning." It's not like Hitler kidnapped the solders from their homes as children and then put them in a camp to hypnotize them or something.

Yes, he actually did. Are you aware how mass conscription and basic training are conducted? Read Col. Dave Grossman.

[Dyakovo]

Someone who is actually insane, as in they are suffering from insanity, is not in control of their actions. According to the justice systems of (I believe) every developed nation, a person can't be held legally responsible for things they do, if they do those things while suffering from insanity.

Hitler was not insane. He was very much in his right mind; he simply subscribed, wholeheartedly, to a horrific ideology. The society around him allowed this ideology to flourish, and gave him the tools and powers he needed in order to act as he and the Nazi party saw fit in the furtherance of that ideology. Just because you don't understand him does not mean he was insane.

No, he was very well insane. He believed there was international conspiracy of Jews working to screw him and his country over for shits and giggles.

Did he though? Or did he simply take advantage of the (fairly widespread) view of the time time that Jews are/were inherently untrustworthy and the suspicion that the reason Jews were not suffering from the effects of the depression like everyone else because they were working together to take advantage of everyone else?

[Mavorpen]

And I'd like to know what he means by "conditioning." It's not like Hitler kidnapped the solders from their homes as children and then put them in a camp to hypnotize them or something.

Yes, he actually did. Are you aware how mass conscription and basic training are conducted? Read Col. Dave Grossman.

Yes, I am. I'm going to need more than a name of a guy as a source.

[Novus America]

See above. The Nazis covered up the Holocaust knowing that even brainwashed normal people would not accept it. They turned to gas chambers as they found many troops were unwilling to carry out massacres or suffered mental breakdowns after.

But this guy is totally different. He was not ordered to shoot up a church and directed by a chain of command using phycological techniques. He did this on his own volition. Again is Charles Manson sane?

Similarly, see above. Where are you getting this stuff from?

Read up some on the history and conduct of the Holocaust.
Also again
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killology

Normal people do not want to kill. Even for a good cause. Hence creating a issue for military planners. It is even worse when you have to convince them to do it in the name of something insane.

[Imperializt Russia]

And the people who followed him? And the German citizens who agreed with him and allowed him to do as he pleased? What about them?

See above. The Nazis covered up the Holocaust knowing that even brainwashed normal people would not accept it. They turned to gas chambers as they found many troops were unwilling to carry out massacres or suffered mental breakdowns after.

But this guy is totally different. He was not ordered to shoot up a church and directed by a chain of command using phycological techniques. He did this on his own volition. Again is Charles Manson sane?

Einsatzgruppen did fine. They even experimented with efficient ways of filling mass graves. They settled on "sardine-packing", where the second group to be shot was ordered to lie on top of the bodies where the first group fell. Rinse and repeat.

The gas chambers were mostly introduced to reduce the likelihood of hordes of Jews and other undesirables rioting their way off the train platform, and also because they were relatively efficient.

[Mavorpen]

Similarly, see above. Where are you getting this stuff from?

Read up some on the history and conduct of the Holocaust.

That's not a source. I can claim "Nazis used unicorns as steeds that soldiers rode into combat" and it'd hold as much validity as your uncited claims.

Also again
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killology

Normal people do not want to kill.

Under normal circumstances, sure.

Even for a good cause.

Oh no, people definitely would want to kill if they believe it's for a good cause. It's how they reduce dissonance.

Hence creating a issue for military planners. It is even worse when you have to convince them to do it in the name of something insane.

It doesn't take much to convince the vast majority of people to do something "insane." Again, see studies that anyone that's taken a basic Psychology course should know about such as the Milgram Experiment and the Stanford Prison Study.

[Novus America]

Yes, he actually did. Are you aware how mass conscription and basic training are conducted? Read Col. Dave Grossman.

Yes, I am. I'm going to need more than a name of a guy as a source.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killology

Again answer the question. Are you aware of how mass conscription and basic training work? Have you never heard of the Hitler Youth? He literally did take children by force and put them into camps.

[Imperializt Russia]

Similarly, see above. Where are you getting this stuff from?

Read up some on the history and conduct of the Holocaust.
Also again
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killology

Normal people do not want to kill. Even for a good cause. Hence creating a issue for military planners. It is even worse when you have to convince them to do it in the name of something insane.

This is where the Nazi's anti-Jew pro-Aryan rhetoric came into play. Militaries fundamentally are racial organisations. I say this as a person who wishes to join the military.
They function best when they do not see their enemy as human and can boil them down to a racial stereotype, convinced of their own race's cultural, physical superiority or an invented, perceived sense of superiority for not being that race.

It works and is still done even in the west.

[Novus America]

Read up some on the history and conduct of the Holocaust.

That's not a source. I can claim "Nazis used unicorns as steeds that soldiers rode into combat" and it's hold as much validity as your uncited claims.

Also again
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killology

Normal people do not want to kill.

Under normal circumstances, sure.

Even for a good cause.

Oh no, people definitely would want to kill if they believe it's for a good cause. It's how they reduce dissonance.

Hence creating a issue for military planners. It is even worse when you have to convince them to do it in the name of something insane.

It doesn't take much to convince the vast majority of people to do something "insane." Again, see studies that anyone that's taken a basic Psychology course should know about such as the Milgram Experiment and the Stanford Prison Study.

If it is so easy than why was it so hard?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killology

Again the military has dedicated massive resources on how to get people to kill for a good cause because normal people do not want to do it, and there is the whole PTSD thing.

[Mavorpen]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killology

Where in this source does it say they were kidnapped in their homes and then indoctrinated into soldiers?

Again answer the question. Are you aware of how mass conscription and basic training work?

I did answer this. Not my fault you didn't read closely.

Have you never heard of the Hitler Youth?

Yes.

He literally did take children by force and put them into camps.

[/quote]
Source?

[Blakk Metal]

No, he was very well insane. He believed there was international conspiracy of Jews working to screw him and his country over for shits and giggles.

Did he though?

Yes! He did numerous activities based on this belief that would have made no sense otherwise.

[Aidannadia]

Shooter will be making a court appearance within the next few minutes apparently.

[Mavorpen]

If it is so easy than why was it so hard?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killology

What?

Again the military has dedicated massive resources on how to get people to kill for a good cause because normal people do not want to do it,

It takes massive resources to do anything on a large scale, period. It has nothing to do with because normal people are saints and don't have impure thoughts.

and there is the whole PTSD thing.

What about it?

[Novus America]

Read up some on the history and conduct of the Holocaust.
Also again
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killology

Normal people do not want to kill. Even for a good cause. Hence creating a issue for military planners. It is even worse when you have to convince them to do it in the name of something insane.

This is where the Nazi's anti-Jew pro-Aryan rhetoric came into play. Militaries fundamentally are racial organisations. I say this as a person who wishes to join the military.
They function best when they do not see their enemy as human and can boil them down to a racial stereotype, convinced of their own race's cultural, physical superiority or an invented, perceived sense of superiority for not being that race.

It works and is still done even in the west.

I know that. I have served on active duty, and am in the reserves, and my link says the same thing. Yes getting people to kill is a problem for western militaries, and dehumanization along with mechanizing are techniques used, just as Hitler did.

[Imperializt Russia]

Did he though?

Yes! He did numerous activities based on this belief that would have made no sense otherwise.

It makes plenty of sense. "Jewish conspiracy" is a very common irrational belief. It is not caused by mental instability, but mental instabilities can exacerbate a person's perception of this belief.

There is no substantive evidence that Hitler was mentally unstable.
He was a deeply irrational man, believing in a deeply irrational and abhorrent ideology in which he misunderstood, amongst other things, heredity and the principle of survival of the fittest.

[Novus America]

If it is so easy than why was it so hard?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killology

What?

Again the military has dedicated massive resources on how to get people to kill for a good cause because normal people do not want to do it,

It takes massive resources to do anything on a large scale, period. It has nothing to do with because normal people are saints and don't have impure thoughts.

and there is the whole PTSD thing.

What about it?

Read. The. Source. You can read, rather than me explaining it.

[Dyakovo]

Did he though?

Yes! He did numerous activities based on this belief that would have made no sense otherwise.

Actually, his actions are easily explained by the alternate explanation that you snipped.

[Camicon]

Did he though?

Yes! He did numerous activities based on this belief that would have made no sense otherwise.

Why was he insane for holding that belief? It was factually incorrect, sure, but because of the treaties that came out of the Paris Peace Conference, Germany did get screwed over by the Western powers for a very long time. It may not have been Jewish people who orchestrated it, and it may not have been a conspiracy, but it definitely could have looked like one.

[Mavorpen]

Read. The. Source. You can read, rather than me explaining it.

I did read it. I'm not seeing anything that justifies you relying on it so much. I'm still laughing at this:

Grossman's theory, based on the World War II research of S.L.A. Marshall, is that most of the population deeply resists killing another human. While Marshall's work has been shown to be unsystematic, his findings have been corroborated by many later studies.[where?]

Can you fill in the blanks and find some other sources? Because this source doesn't match up with decades of research performed in Psychology.