9 Dead in SC Church Shooting - Hate Crime Confirmed.

[Bontavation]

I think he belongs in prison and don't really care if he is mentally ill.

As someone with a mental illness ...

Mental illness gets trotted out a lot to explain away the actions of murderers, and it's not correct to do so. Mentally ill people are more likely to be the victims of violence than perpetrators of it - they commit crimes and violence at the same rate as the rest of the population. Having a mental illness doesn't make one violent (and it doesn't serve as exculpation if you are).

The reason people are eager to label murderers as mentally ill is because if they're mentally ill, well, obviously they don't think like us. Nobody like us would ever do such a thing, there must be something wrong with someone like that! It's something like the "no true Scotsman" fallacy; no sane person would shoot up a church!

In reality, evil isn't extraordinary, and doesn't require a brain any different from the norm. We've known about the banality of evil since the Nuremburg trials; the fact that ordinary, rational people can commit atrocities shouldn't be news to anyone. Roof - or Breivik, or whoever - aren't mentally ill; they're just wrong, and have followed their wrong thinking to its logical conclusions.

They could be mentally ill.

[Kelinfort]

-snip-

You never broke a single thing on them. You're just denying how each quotes were meant. You intentionally misinterpreted it for your defense.

NATIONAL SOCIALISM is still SOCIALISM. I mean, the words alone prove it.

Blatantly false. National socialism was corporatism, in practice. Leftist elements of national socialism did exist, but these were purged in 1934. Goebbels, one of the few leftists Nazi's in Hitler's cabinet, largely kept his views hidden.

Just as national liberalism is different from liberalism, so too is national socialism different from socialism. I support neither, but there are more powerful arguments against socialism than "association" with the Nazi's.

[Lockdownn]

I'm not sure why Roof wasn't handcuffed, but the image in that context is powerfully evocative.

Remember the biker gangs who shot up that diner in Texas a few weeks back? There are photos of them, shortly after being arrested, not handcuffed as they waited for the paddy wagon to show up. In fact texting people. Compare and contrast that to the pool party thing where a cop was running about waving his gun at teenagers, pinning a teenage (black) girl to the ground for the apparent crime of not having a pool pass ...

Except it wasn't them who shot up the place. They were seen trying to get people to safety.

I really do hope they get to the bottom of this as his reason was most likely racially motivated.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Propaganda of the deed is an anarchist method of damaging the State. I'm not seeing the issue.

Call it as you like. I will call it by the name it is.

Terrorism.

What listed there would be fitting every modern definition of terrorism we know.

But, now time to quote some Anarchists! Shall we begin with Proudhon, who supported sought during civil war, hated at least dozen of nationalities, and was notorious anti - semite?

The Jew is the enemy of humankind. They must be sent back to Asia or be exterminated. By steel or by fire or by expulsion the Jew must disappear.

No, it is not Hitler; it is father of Anarchism.

Time for Bakunin, it seems!

This whole Jewish world, comprising a single exploiting sect, a kind of blood sucking people, a kind of organic destructive collective parasite, going beyond not only the frontiers of states, but of political opinion, this world is now, at least for the most part, at the disposal of Marx on the one hand, and of Rothschild on the other... This may seem strange. What can there be in common between socialism and a leading bank? The point is that authoritarian socialism, Marxist communism, demands a strong centralisation of the state. And where there is centralisation of the state, there must necessarily be a central bank, and where such a bank exists, the parasitic Jewish nation, speculating with the Labour of the people, will be found.

Yep. Products of their time. Very wrong and racist. Bad bad bad. Good thing modern anarchists are anti-racism. And that their racism was never part of the ideologies they helped develop.

[Big Jim P]

Remember the biker gangs who shot up that diner in Texas a few weeks back? There are photos of them, shortly after being arrested, not handcuffed as they waited for the paddy wagon to show up. In fact texting people. Compare and contrast that to the pool party thing where a cop was running about waving his gun at teenagers, pinning a teenage (black) girl to the ground for the apparent crime of not having a pool pass ...

Except it wasn't them who shot up the place. They were seen trying to get people to safety.

I really do hope they get to the bottom of this as his reason was most likely racially motivated.

Considering the manifesto I read, I would say that there is no doubt that his motivation was racism.

[Salus Maior]

Can we have a white denomination church? Yes or no...simple question.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/?title=Christian_Identity

(But they aren't Christian)

*reads first paragraph* Yeah no kidding they're not Christian. Geez....

[Nazi Flower Power]

Kinda segregating themselves.

Because voluntarily going to a place where they don't have people sneering at them or assuming terrible things about them, simply because of the colour of their skin, is equivalent to being forcibly segregated and being assigned a sub-human status by the country they live in.

Right.

It's unlikely that they would throw out a white person who wanted to pray with them.

[Todeslager]

I have always found it rather amusing that the people who are the most vocal about white superiority are, in and of themselves, the best evidence that their philosophy is wrong.

I have noticed that too.

The public marginalization of explicit racists is working. No one of serious import WANTS to be known as a racist.

[Nazi Flower Power]

...why the fuck can they not have a denomination with "black" in the name? It isn't like whites aren't allowed. The kid went to the fucking church, where he says everyone was "so nice" to him he almost backed out of the killing.

Can we have a white denomination church? Yes or no...simple question.

Is it legal? Yes. Is it a good idea? Not really.

[The New Sea Territory]

Propaganda of the deed is an anarchist method of damaging the State. I'm not seeing the issue.

Call it as you like. I will call it by the name it is.

Terrorism.

What listed there would be fitting every modern definition of terrorism we know.

Technically speaking, propaganda of the deed does not have to be violent.

But, now time to quote some Anarchists! Shall we begin with Proudhon, who supported sought during civil war, hated at least dozen of nationalities, and was notorious anti - semite?

The Jew is the enemy of humankind. They must be sent back to Asia or be exterminated. By steel or by fire or by expulsion the Jew must disappear.

No, it is not Hitler; it is father of Anarchism.

Time for Bakunin, it seems!

This whole Jewish world, comprising a single exploiting sect, a kind of blood sucking people, a kind of organic destructive collective parasite, going beyond not only the frontiers of states, but of political opinion, this world is now, at least for the most part, at the disposal of Marx on the one hand, and of Rothschild on the other... This may seem strange. What can there be in common between socialism and a leading bank? The point is that authoritarian socialism, Marxist communism, demands a strong centralisation of the state. And where there is centralisation of the state, there must necessarily be a central bank, and where such a bank exists, the parasitic Jewish nation, speculating with the Labour of the people, will be found.

Marxists.org is not a reliable source, especially when talking about Marx's biggest political opponents.

[Camicon]

Because voluntarily going to a place where they don't have people sneering at them or assuming terrible things about them, simply because of the colour of their skin, is equivalent to being forcibly segregated and being assigned a sub-human status by the country they live in.

Right.

It's unlikely that they would throw out a white person who wanted to pray with them.

Exactly. Moreover, if they did throw someone out simply because they were white, I suspect that successful racial discrimination lawsuits would follow.

[Tsaraine]

Because voluntarily going to a place where they don't have people sneering at them or assuming terrible things about them, simply because of the colour of their skin, is equivalent to being forcibly segregated and being assigned a sub-human status by the country they live in.

Right.

It's unlikely that they would throw out a white person who wanted to pray with them.

Unlikely? They didn't. They let Roof join their bible study group, he was there for about an hour before he shot them. And afterwards, the family members of some of the victims forgave him, which just boggles my atheist mind. Anyone shoots my family members, they're not getting forgiven.

[Nazi Flower Power]

I think he belongs in prison and don't really care if he is mentally ill.

As someone with a mental illness ...

Mental illness gets trotted out a lot to explain away the actions of murderers, and it's not correct to do so. Mentally ill people are more likely to be the victims of violence than perpetrators of it - they commit crimes and violence at the same rate as the rest of the population. Having a mental illness doesn't make one violent (and it doesn't serve as exculpation if you are).

The reason people are eager to label murderers as mentally ill is because if they're mentally ill, well, obviously they don't think like us. Nobody like us would ever do such a thing, there must be something wrong with someone like that! It's something like the "no true Scotsman" fallacy; no sane person would shoot up a church!

In reality, evil isn't extraordinary, and doesn't require a brain any different from the norm. We've known about the banality of evil since the Nuremburg trials; the fact that ordinary, rational people can commit atrocities shouldn't be news to anyone. Roof - or Breivik, or whoever - aren't mentally ill; they're just wrong, and have followed their wrong thinking to its logical conclusions.

Well, there is something wrong with someone like that.

But not something that makes them any less responsible for their actions. I don't know if Roof is mentally ill or not, but he belongs in prison either way.

[Atlanticatia]

I think it's time for us, as a society, to stamp out racial hatred. We have to realize that some viewpoints are dangerous and should not be treated equally. We cannot treat racist views as valid opinions - we can't give platforms to these opinions, nor tolerate them. Along with education - educating people on anti-racist viewpoints and tolerance - we can't sit idly by as racial hatred is disseminated in society. Just as most people don't think that incitement to violence should not be tolerate, we should not tolerate incitement to hatred. This means not tolerating a symbol of racial hatred like the Confederate flag - especially not tolerating it when it flies on public property. We cannot allow racism to be normalized, and I think that requires a response from both society and the government, along with other institutions.

[Nazi Flower Power]

It's unlikely that they would throw out a white person who wanted to pray with them.

Unlikely? They didn't. They let Roof join their bible study group, he was there for about an hour before he shot them. And afterwards, the family members of some of the victims forgave him, which just boggles my atheist mind. Anyone shoots my family members, they're not getting forgiven.

I haven't been following all of the new info that is coming out, so I missed that.

That's pretty creepy that he could sit with them for that long and not lose his nerve.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Unlikely? They didn't. They let Roof join their bible study group, he was there for about an hour before he shot them. And afterwards, the family members of some of the victims forgave him, which just boggles my atheist mind. Anyone shoots my family members, they're not getting forgiven.

I haven't been following all of the new info that is coming out, so I missed that.

That's pretty creepy that he could sit with them for that long and not lose his nerve.

Or come to see them, in some small way, as actual people, and not the "Negro" nightmares from his dark, apocalyptic visions.

[Nazi Flower Power]

I haven't been following all of the new info that is coming out, so I missed that.

That's pretty creepy that he could sit with them for that long and not lose his nerve.

Or come to see them, in some small way, as actual people, and not the "Negro" nightmares from his dark, apocalyptic visions.

That would be one of the reasons I would expect him to lose his nerve. Cos when you're actually face to face with someone, the idea of killing them is really disturbing. Quite aside from the fact you'll get arrested, most people have an instinctive aversion to it.

I don't get how anyone can not have an aversion to it.

[Todeslager]

Propaganda of the deed is an anarchist method of damaging the State. I'm not seeing the issue.

Call it as you like. I will call it by the name it is.

Terrorism.

What listed there would be fitting every modern definition of terrorism we know.

But, now time to quote some Anarchists! Shall we begin with Proudhon, who supported sought during civil war, hated at least dozen of nationalities, and was notorious anti - semite?

The Jew is the enemy of humankind. They must be sent back to Asia or be exterminated. By steel or by fire or by expulsion the Jew must disappear.

No, it is not Hitler; it is father of Anarchism.

Time for Bakunin, it seems!

This whole Jewish world, comprising a single exploiting sect, a kind of blood sucking people, a kind of organic destructive collective parasite, going beyond not only the frontiers of states, but of political opinion, this world is now, at least for the most part, at the disposal of Marx on the one hand, and of Rothschild on the other... This may seem strange. What can there be in common between socialism and a leading bank? The point is that authoritarian socialism, Marxist communism, demands a strong centralisation of the state. And where there is centralisation of the state, there must necessarily be a central bank, and where such a bank exists, the parasitic Jewish nation, speculating with the Labour of the people, will be found.

You could also go to the Jacobins and the infamous Robiespierre - the very origins of dividing political groupings into left-wing and right-wing in the French revolution - and argue that "the left" invented and championed state terror and the formation of police states FROM THE START OMG - and for the most part be completely historically accurate - but what ultimately does this noise accomplish?

There are and have always been really shitty people on both the right and left. The only real conclusion to draw from this is a need for humanity to stop producing shitty people, or at least stop franchising them with influence and power.

[Fronsland]

Sadly, this will be hugely politicized. Give it a few days.

You are right

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Or come to see them, in some small way, as actual people, and not the "Negro" nightmares from his dark, apocalyptic visions.

That would be one of the reasons I would expect him to lose his nerve. Cos when you're actually face to face with someone, the idea of killing them is really disturbing. Quite aside from the fact you'll get arrested, most people have an instinctive aversion to it.

I don't get how anyone can not have an aversion to it.

Nor I. Which is, I suspect, one of many reasons that neither of us have been featured in the news in grim photographs, being referred to by our full first, middle, and last names.

[Ardoki]

You still haven't shown me where, socialism calls for genocide on a scale at least as bad as Nazism.

Anarchism is a school of socialism, so is Social Democracy. So your evidence would have to work for both those schools as well.

I shown you everything but you refuse to listen or reason. You have right to deny the obvious. But this only means about you.

I also recommend you to see what terrorists from Mikhail Bakunin did in Russia or crimes of republicans in Spain if you want it as that.

Enjoy actions of 19th century socialists.

Paracuellos massacres, a good example.

Yeah. A bunch of assassinations against leaders is comparable to the Holocaust.

And a thousand nationalists were killed. You think that is comparable to 11 million deaths.

[Shofercia]

Absolutely heinous. It shows the depravity to which rabid racism can lead. Prosecute the murderer to the fullest extent of the law. Provide aid to the families of those who were tragically shot. Fight rabid racism by doing little things, like saying "hi" to people of other race/ethnicity, and try befriending some of them.

Otherwise, I'm speechless.

[Nazi Flower Power]

That would be one of the reasons I would expect him to lose his nerve. Cos when you're actually face to face with someone, the idea of killing them is really disturbing. Quite aside from the fact you'll get arrested, most people have an instinctive aversion to it.

I don't get how anyone can not have an aversion to it.

Nor I. Which is, I suspect, one of many reasons that neither of us have been featured in the news in grim photographs, being referred to by our full first, middle, and last names.

Yeah, I am not looking to get in the news like that.

[Domineering Westerners]

I think it's time for us, as a society, to stamp out racial hatred. We have to realize that some viewpoints are dangerous and should not be treated equally. We cannot treat racist views as valid opinions - we can't give platforms to these opinions, nor tolerate them. Along with education - educating people on anti-racist viewpoints and tolerance - we can't sit idly by as racial hatred is disseminated in society. Just as most people don't think that incitement to violence should not be tolerate, we should not tolerate incitement to hatred. This means not tolerating a symbol of racial hatred like the Confederate flag - especially not tolerating it when it flies on public property. We cannot allow racism to be normalized, and I think that requires a response from both society and the government, along with other institutions.

Incitement to violence has been illegal for quite some time.

But incitement to hatred? Erm...am I the only one who thinks this is stupid?

[Shofercia]

I have noticed that too.

The public marginalization of explicit racists is working. No one of serious import WANTS to be known as a racist.

And this is bad, because? You can oppose immigration without being a racist. Example: "hey, let's not let anyone who doesn't have a degree from a decent university come to our country, until we fix up our economy!" Seriously, how does a racist contribute to society? Why shouldn't society marginalize those who contribute nothing and promote fighting based on something that people cannot control?