2018-19 Hockey Megathread: Lightning-Proof Jackets

[The Two Jerseys]

Damn, Flyers and Habs are giving the goalies a workout!

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

They had league, we were fighting with one hand tied behind are back. And we still got bronze.

And that was still our most successful Olympics ever.

The Canadian Medals started increasing after Curling became an Olympic Sport

Also, how about that Women's Hockey Final for Canada? Too soon?

Joking aside, good job on the team figure skating event. I'm looking forward to a rematch in 2022. Granted, we should've had Klimov-Stolbova, but that four points wouldn't have made a difference. Also, not a bad Bobsleigh run, and good results on freestyle skiing as always, that might be your guys' sport, and c'mon, it's so much better than Curling. Just admit it, you know you want to

Also, I enjoyed Toutant's jumps, but can't say the same about McMorris. He's just way too fucking crazy, and that teaches bad form to the kids. Usually not a good idea. Overall - good performance by Team Canada. Wait, isn't this a hockey thread?

I know I said I should have watched it... but I got Witcher 3... So I kinda didn't see it.

Thanks, but srsly Curling isn't that bad.

Also, sorry Germany but I had to.

[Shofercia]

The Canadian Medals started increasing after Curling became an Olympic Sport

Also, how about that Women's Hockey Final for Canada? Too soon?

Joking aside, good job on the team figure skating event. I'm looking forward to a rematch in 2022. Granted, we should've had Klimov-Stolbova, but that four points wouldn't have made a difference. Also, not a bad Bobsleigh run, and good results on freestyle skiing as always, that might be your guys' sport, and c'mon, it's so much better than Curling. Just admit it, you know you want to

Also, I enjoyed Toutant's jumps, but can't say the same about McMorris. He's just way too fucking crazy, and that teaches bad form to the kids. Usually not a good idea. Overall - good performance by Team Canada. Wait, isn't this a hockey thread?

I know I said I should have watched it... but I got Witcher 3... So I kinda didn't see it.

Thanks, but srsly Curling isn't that bad.

Also, sorry Germany but I had to.

That just proves, once again, that you're a hockey fan, and we gotta get along

And stay away from those weird Curling fans, although Curling's not all that bad

Joking aside, there's a Curling Sport for Hockey Fans:

[Pope Joan]

The Blue Jackets need scorers; they were not nearly aggressive enough in signing them recently, while they could. They got a couple semi-good veterans, who might help provide leadership for the young team, but in reality they failed.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

I know I said I should have watched it... but I got Witcher 3... So I kinda didn't see it.

Thanks, but srsly Curling isn't that bad.

Also, sorry Germany but I had to.

(Image)

That just proves, once again, that you're a hockey fan, and we gotta get along

And stay away from those weird Curling fans, although Curling's not all that bad

Joking aside, there's a Curling Sport for Hockey Fans:

Of course
Glad you like the meme.
Heh, that last one looks awesome. :3

[Northwest Kalactin]

I live in Seattle it turns out the whole city is hyped about the NHL coming to my hometown in fact did you know in the season ticket deposit on March 1st NHL to Seattle drew 10,000, fans to put in 12 minutes for season ticket deposits what do you think of the possible move of the NHL to Seattle?

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

All for more hockey.

[Farnhamia]

I live in Seattle it turns out the whole city is hyped about the NHL coming to my hometown in fact did you know in the season ticket deposit on March 1st NHL to Seattle drew 10,000, fans to put in 12 minutes for season ticket deposits what do you think of the possible move of the NHL to Seattle?

I think 1) we already have an NHL megathread and 2) this topic doesn't come up to megathread importance. As soon as I find the other one, merging will intensify.

[Northwest Kalactin]

I live in Seattle it turns out the whole city is hyped about the NHL coming to my hometown in fact did you know in the season ticket deposit on March 1st NHL to Seattle drew 10,000, fans to put in 12 minutes for season ticket deposits what do you think of the possible move of the NHL to Seattle?

I think 1) we already have an NHL megathread and 2) this topic doesn't come up to megathread importance. As soon as I find the other one, merging will intensify.

Okay I’m cool with that

[The Two Jerseys]

I live in Seattle it turns out the whole city is hyped about the NHL coming to my hometown in fact did you know in the season ticket deposit on March 1st NHL to Seattle drew 10,000, fans to put in 12 minutes for season ticket deposits what do you think of the possible move of the NHL to Seattle?

I think 1) we already have an NHL megathread and 2) this topic doesn't come up to megathread importance. As soon as I find the other one, merging will intensify.

Here it is: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=344617

[Farnhamia]

I think 1) we already have an NHL megathread and 2) this topic doesn't come up to megathread importance. As soon as I find the other one, merging will intensify.

Here it is: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=344617

I found it using the search mechanism but the friggin' merge won't work.

Ye gods, that was unnecessarily complicated!

[The Two Jerseys]

I live in Seattle it turns out the whole city is hyped about the NHL coming to my hometown in fact did you know in the season ticket deposit on March 1st NHL to Seattle drew 10,000, fans to put in 12 minutes for season ticket deposits what do you think of the possible move of the NHL to Seattle?

Arizona Coyotes become Seattle Pilots II? Sounds all right to me.

[Elejamie]

I live in Seattle it turns out the whole city is hyped about the NHL coming to my hometown in fact did you know in the season ticket deposit on March 1st NHL to Seattle drew 10,000, fans to put in 12 minutes for season ticket deposits what do you think of the possible move of the NHL to Seattle?

To be fair, we discussed this a while back (starting from here) and we're all pretty much supporting it. After all, Seattle had a few hockey teams already (the Stanley Cup-winning Metropolitans of the 1910s and 20s, the Seattle Totems and its many named from the mid-40s to the mid-70s and the Seattle Thunderbirds who now play in neighbouring Kent), a team in Washington state would mean that hockey fans in the PNW don't have to be split between supporting the Vancouver Canucks or one of the Cali teams (or resorting to junior hockey just to get their fill) and the fact that it could spark a good rivalry with the aforementioned Canucks which in turn could generate a load of money. Granted I did suggest a move to Portland at first, since they've already got an arena big enough for pro hockey and it would save the KeyArena from being renovated and a new arena being built just to accommodate an ice hockey team, but as Shofercia pointed out Seattle's a bigger city and has a bigger TV market.

The downside? From the looks of things, Seattle's going to be an expansion team. Which wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the fact that a) the Pacific Division would have nine teams and b) I don't think anyone would want a repeat of the 2011-2013 Southeast Divison (when the Thrashers moved from Atlanta to Winnipeg to become the new Jets but didn't move into a new division). The obvious plan would be to relocate the Arizona Coyotes to Houston or Kansas City, since they struggle to fill seats and generally aren't a good team with only two playoff series wins in the 20+ years they've been there. But, due to Gary Bettman's bizarre determination to keep the team there (to the point where I call them the Wesleys, after Star Trek: TNG character and Gene Roddenberry's creator's pet Welsey Crusher), they won't be going anywhere anytime soon. They could rearrange the Divisions instead, although it's a question of whether it'll simply be moving a P-Div team into the C-Div or just redrawing everything. Either way, we've got a couple of years to go so hopefully we'll see how things'll pan out as we wait.

[Shofercia]

I live in Seattle it turns out the whole city is hyped about the NHL coming to my hometown in fact did you know in the season ticket deposit on March 1st NHL to Seattle drew 10,000, fans to put in 12 minutes for season ticket deposits what do you think of the possible move of the NHL to Seattle?

Arizona Coyotes become Seattle Pilots II? Sounds all right to me.

The Yotes will finally have a home? But, but, but, all of those Yote jokes will be gone...


Regarding the NHL's expansion, I'm wondering if the NHL is considering competition with the KHL. Currently, the NHL is the best hockey league, and one of the reasons for it - is that the NHL has the most quality teams. On the other hand, the KHL has the biggest growth potential. Less than a decade ago, standiums of 7,000 seats were normal for KHL, but now the league is pushing for stadiums of 12,000, and within a few decades, even those might prove too small.

The chart is a bit misleading, http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/ ... 9&sid=2017, because Torpedo's attendance is a measly 5,340, until you realize that it's ticket sales alone, and the arena is almost always sold out at 5,600. Torpedo needs a bigger arena, and that's just one example. Admiral Vladivostok's attendance is 5,314, and they're also selling out. It was opened in 2013. On top of that, out of the five best selling teams, averaging 10,440 fans, three are located outside of Russia. Sochi, which had no hockey prior to the 2014 Olympics, now averages 5,312 fans.

That is incredible growth. Spartak of Moscow, which struggled to make ends meet just a few years ago, now averages 7,288 fans. While the numbers are laughable compared to the NHL, the growth certainly isn't, and the KHL is not going to limit the league to 32 teams. Two decades of this growth and you can start to see parity, especially consider the cost of living and taxation differences.

So let's go into the player difference in terms of revenue: the NHL's at $4.4 billion for 31 teams, and the KHL's at $1.2 billion for 27 teams. Sounds like a huge gap, right? First, let's get the per team payment, and focus on the players; we can either take the minimum (40% from NHL, 50% from KHL,) or the maximum (50% from NHL, 60% from KHL,) on player salaries and development. I'm going with the max:

NHL Team: $71 million & KHL team: $27 million. That's across at least 23 players, leading to the averages being $3.1 million per player, and $1.2 million per player. Of course that's a bit inaccurate, since a few stars make the most money, but that's the case in each league. Now let's start the countdown - taxes: NHL's taxes range from 34% to 54%, depending on where the player's at. Let's go with 44% - now the NHL's player at $1.7 million. Russian taxes on hockey players are never more than 15%. So the KHL's player at $1 million.

Then there's the cost of living adjustment. Let's say that both players decide to save $300,000. Even so, $700k in Russia goes a lot further than $1.4 million in the US. So there's a plausible argument for financial parity. The NHL continues to be the best league, especially if you're in your early 20s, but once you hit your early 30s, the KHL ain't looking that bad. The play is less aggressive, simply because there's more skating space.

If the NHL was to remain at 30 teams, it a few decades, it would see the error of its ways. The question is -how many teams can the NHL field, while remaining competitive? 36? 40? 32 is a good first step.

I live in Seattle it turns out the whole city is hyped about the NHL coming to my hometown in fact did you know in the season ticket deposit on March 1st NHL to Seattle drew 10,000, fans to put in 12 minutes for season ticket deposits what do you think of the possible move of the NHL to Seattle?

To be fair, we discussed this a while back (starting from here) and we're all pretty much supporting it. After all, Seattle had a few hockey teams already (the Stanley Cup-winning Metropolitans of the 1910s and 20s, the Seattle Totems and its many named from the mid-40s to the mid-70s and the Seattle Thunderbirds who now play in neighbouring Kent), a team in Washington state would mean that hockey fans in the PNW don't have to be split between supporting the Vancouver Canucks or one of the Cali teams (or resorting to junior hockey just to get their fill) and the fact that it could spark a good rivalry with the aforementioned Canucks which in turn could generate a load of money. Granted I did suggest a move to Portland at first, since they've already got an arena big enough for pro hockey and it would save the KeyArena from being renovated and a new arena being built just to accommodate an ice hockey team, but as Shofercia pointed out Seattle's a bigger city and has a bigger TV market.

The downside? From the looks of things, Seattle's going to be an expansion team. Which wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the fact that a) the Pacific Division would have nine teams and b) I don't think anyone would want a repeat of the 2011-2013 Southeast Divison (when the Thrashers moved from Atlanta to Winnipeg to become the new Jets but didn't move into a new division). The obvious plan would be to relocate the Arizona Coyotes to Houston or Kansas City, since they struggle to fill seats and generally aren't a good team with only two playoff series wins in the 20+ years they've been there. But, due to Gary Bettman's bizarre determination to keep the team there (to the point where I call them the Wesleys, after Star Trek: TNG character and Gene Roddenberry's creator's pet Welsey Crusher), they won't be going anywhere anytime soon. They could rearrange the Divisions instead, although it's a question of whether it'll simply be moving a P-Div team into the C-Div or just redrawing everything. Either way, we've got a couple of years to go so hopefully we'll see how things'll pan out as we wait.

Thank you for a very informative post!

[Camicon]

*snip*

If you're looking at it in terms of population, which is the limiting factor here, the only scenario in which the KHL has the potential to grow past the NHL is if it expands aggressively into China, and that's dependent on a Chinese middle class which can afford to support a professional hockey league.

[Shofercia]

*snip*

If you're looking at it in terms of population, which is the limiting factor here, the only scenario in which the KHL has the potential to grow past the NHL is if it expands aggressively into China, and that's dependent on a Chinese middle class which can afford to support a professional hockey league.

China has the middle class, but the question is whether or not hockey's going to be interesting to China. However, it's not just about China. Jokerit is doing reasonably well in the KHL, and they're Finnish. Swedish, German, and Swiss clubs might also join. If you're worried about travel time, the KHL can split into two conferences, whose winners only meet in the finals, the Super Bowl of Hockey, well, sort of

Additionally, smaller countries, such as Slovenia, might seek to emulate the success of Minsk, Belarus' hockey team, at which point it would become a national hockey team in the KHL, and that would definitely increase the fan base.

[Camicon]

If you're looking at it in terms of population, which is the limiting factor here, the only scenario in which the KHL has the potential to grow past the NHL is if it expands aggressively into China, and that's dependent on a Chinese middle class which can afford to support a professional hockey league.

China has the middle class, but the question is whether or not hockey's going to be interesting to China. However, it's not just about China. Jokerit is doing reasonably well in the KHL, and they're Finnish. Swedish, German, and Swiss clubs might also join. If you're worried about travel time, the KHL can split into two conferences, whose winners only meet in the finals, the Super Bowl of Hockey, well, sort of

Additionally, smaller countries, such as Slovenia, might seek to emulate the success of Minsk, Belarus' hockey team, at which point it would become a national hockey team in the KHL, and that would definitely increase the fan base.

China has a middle class, but are they both willing and able to support a professional sports league in the same way that the Americans and Canadians are? That's the question.

I don't see the various Euro teams and leagues joining the KHL, considering the deepening political animosity between Russia and most of the rest of the European states, but who knows.

[The Royal Kingdom of Quebec]

Ah, nothing like good ole 'More KHL content' talk. As someone who hopefully will travel more to Russia for academic / work reasons in future, it's always a good thing

Anyways, here are my opinions about some KHL stuff:

- Snip -

1. KHL's key issue is the lack of parity brought by a pretty high salary cap, which enables dominance by key teams like CSKA and SKA (I'm a CSKA Moskva fan btw) through key import signings and being able to poach promising youth talents from other teams in advance. The latter of course happens to certain extent on Canadian jrs (I witness this a lot in QMJHL more than OHL, as someone who watches both leagues once again). As a result we started seeing teams fall out of contention and even the league ala. Novokuznetsk, Atlant, Spartak for a short while and even Lev Praha, etc.

2. The growth in attendance figure is remarkable, that's for sure, but we can't say the same for every franchise. CSKA's attendance rate, for example, is dreadful - and that's with the team having one of the best teams in the league for last while, in the nation's capital! Not that CSKA is going to have any financial problem anytime soon but it is really bizarre....especially because Dynamo and Spartak are doing really well even with a market divided into three.

Dinamo Riga is more concerning case especially because they have been too irrelevant on ice for a long while now, but we already know that part.....The same can be said towards Kunlun, but that may be a little bit of stretch especially because we're talking about a KHL team in China. Beijing or Shanghai doesn't matter.

3. But for non-Russian markets that have a team, they tend to fare pretty well in attendance, which is huge appeal for KHL imho.

Other non-Russian markets (aside from Medvescak, but we knew that team wasn't going to work beyond few years) that I've yet to mention so far are doing pretty well for themselves:
- Minsk : Playoff bubble team but very strong attendance figure year after year. Having a weak domestic league allows Dinamo to be more or less a national representative team. Boom - success!
- Jokerit : One of the better teams in the Western Conference year after year, not to mention their arena located right in middle of Helsinki and a strong fanbase. Boom - success (though they should be doing better imo)!
- Slovan : See Minsk. Boom - success!
- Barys : Not as high as any of the three aforementioned, but doing well on their own right. Another bubble team, the only difference is that Astana is not the biggest city nor the commercial centre of this country- that'd be Almaty.

4. But there is limit to how far can KHL expand into. Expansion into Sweden is not happening, nor is it feasible in Denmark (they have their own league and it's holding their own) nor Norway (see Denmark). Czech league is solid and I don't know if they'll come back to Praha after the failure of Lev.....which I actually cannot comment on without personal bias due to my connection to Praha. Germany? Maybe, but will their magical 2018 run continue? That, I would bet unlikely on.

I also know Korea's not getting a KHL franchise- it would simply not work.

5. 700k in Russia going further than 1.4M in US only work further because the cost of living there is wayyyyyyyyyyy cheaper especially if we take account into food, transportation, etc (I'll explain to you on how this matters to me through TG). But the question lies upon whether the players' families are interested in moving with them to stay at least for the duration of the contract or even permanently or not.

Given the generalised personalities of N.A. hockey players, that has to be improved because raising kids is a pretty important part by that point. If this part improves, it'll definitely draw better for older players or even younger prospects who do not fit in NHL. Right now that just needs a lot of work.

6. Demand doesn't always equate with population of this socioeconomic class being able to pay for the ticket. It has just as many issues with culture, history, etc. Southern expansion in NHL worked in part because NHL's already had a team in LA since 1967. LA Kings were pretty good with Marcel Dionne and Rogatien "Rogie" Vachon in 1970s and that's what enabled their survival well into their darker days of 1980s (Robitaille's great, btw) before #99 arrived from Edmonton. Also, LA's pretty big and has a lot of people from rest of the country who are interested in watching their game, etc, not to mention celebrities.

We can't say the same with Red Star Kunlun, because of those demographic differences and poor results in hockey beforehand. Association football's another story of course and basketball works because of Chinese success in both. Hockey? Please......remember China Dragon in Asian League Ice Hockey anyone?

[Shofercia]

China has the middle class, but the question is whether or not hockey's going to be interesting to China. However, it's not just about China. Jokerit is doing reasonably well in the KHL, and they're Finnish. Swedish, German, and Swiss clubs might also join. If you're worried about travel time, the KHL can split into two conferences, whose winners only meet in the finals, the Super Bowl of Hockey, well, sort of

Additionally, smaller countries, such as Slovenia, might seek to emulate the success of Minsk, Belarus' hockey team, at which point it would become a national hockey team in the KHL, and that would definitely increase the fan base.

China has a middle class, but are they both willing and able to support a professional sports league in the same way that the Americans and Canadians are? That's the question.

I don't see the various Euro teams and leagues joining the KHL, considering the deepening political animosity between Russia and most of the rest of the European states, but who knows.

The animosity doesn't really spread to sports, and especially, to hockey. Despite the rather tenuous Russo-Latvian relationship, Dinamo Riga was/is always welcome in the KHL, and the KHL was/is always welcome in Latvia. The KHL was actually invited to the European Champions League, but refused to join due to financial issues. The worst relationship between the NHL and KHL happened when the NHL refused to pay the team transfer fee for Evgeny Malkin to the KHL team that had his rights, and the KHL retaliated. The dispute between the IOC and KHL/NHL is over broadcasting fees. So aside from financial disputes, the relationships have generally been warm. Granted, with broadcasting fees approaching the stratosphere, we're going to see fights over those more often. But it'll just be limited to that, although the media will claim that it's totally related to something else.

Croatia and Russia didn't have the best of relations when Medvecak was given certain benefits and bonuses to join the KHL. And that's just one example - there are quite a few. Point is - politics won't poison hockey. The biggest complaint filed this year by the European Hockey Community was the one backing the Russians against WADA/IOC. In 2016 it was about the Europeans getting a joint team in the World Cup, rather than being allowed to represent their country, whereas the North Americans got a U23 team. And the biggest troll tweet originated from Phil Kessel. I'm just not sensing the animosity; how bad can Kessel be, he's not even Sean Avery?

Regarding China, you're right - that is the question. Considering that the Chinese have shown improvements in other skating sports, I am cautiously optimistic.

[Shofercia]

Ah, nothing like good ole 'More KHL content' talk. As someone who hopefully will travel more to Russia for academic / work reasons in future, it's always a good thing

I just love how spoiled we are as hockey fans, especially right now. Two excellent leagues, numerous international tournaments, what's not to love?

Anyways, here are my opinions about some KHL stuff:

- Snip -

1. KHL's key issue is the lack of parity brought by a pretty high salary cap, which enables dominance by key teams like CSKA and SKA (I'm a CSKA Moskva fan btw) through key import signings and being able to poach promising youth talents from other teams in advance. The latter of course happens to certain extent on Canadian jrs (I witness this a lot in QMJHL more than OHL, as someone who watches both leagues once again). As a result we started seeing teams fall out of contention and even the league ala. Novokuznetsk, Atlant, Spartak for a short while and even Lev Praha, etc.

The lack of parity is an issue, especially when you have teams like SKA with unlimited funds. On the other hand, it's also a benefit, because it makes it easier to recruit players for other teams that want to play against SKA, CSKA, etc. It's like the Spanish Soccer League playing against Real Madrid, or Barca, or Atletico Madrid. So it's both, good and bad. Spartak fell out due to mismanagement. The management fucked up the main sponsorship - that's really bad. At the same time, we get teams like Chelyabinsk, that goes toe to toe with the giants, the Leicester City of the KHL, so that's always fun to watch.

Atlant was out due to competition being very tough in Moscow. The others, CSKA, Dynamo, Spartak, all have Soviet Histories, and generational fan bases. That said, the KHL needs a revenue sharing structure that's more equitable, at least when it comes to broadcasting and sponsorship. The stadium construction costs are also an issue - HC Sochi thrives because they got a free 12,000 seat stadium.

2. The growth in attendance figure is remarkable, that's for sure, but we can't say the same for every franchise. CSKA's attendance rate, for example, is dreadful - and that's with the team having one of the best teams in the league for last while, in the nation's capital! Not that CSKA is going to have any financial problem anytime soon but it is really bizarre....especially because Dynamo and Spartak are doing really well even with a market divided into three.

CSKA's fans were promised a new stadium, they were super excited, but it didn't pan out. So the team lost an average of 1,000 fans per game over that. That's a huge hit for any team, even the ones playing in the NHL. CSKA desperately needs to revive their fan base, rather than adopting the current "if we play, they'll come" approach that they have. But look at how well Spartak rebounded. 2013-2014 season - 3,521 fans. 2014-2015 - on hiatus. 2015-2016 - 6,193 fans. And last season - 7,288.

Dinamo Riga is more concerning case especially because they have been too irrelevant on ice for a long while now, but we already know that part.....The same can be said towards Kunlun, but that may be a little bit of stretch especially because we're talking about a KHL team in China. Beijing or Shanghai doesn't matter.

Kunlun played in the KHL for only a year. Can't build a fanbase that quickly. Keep in mind - most of those teams are generational teams. It's too early for Kunlun. Dinamo Riga got hit hard, lost over 1,000 fans, going from 5,780 in 2015-2016 to 4,457 in 2016-2017. But they might be able to recover, especially since the 2021 World Championship is being shared between Minsk and Riga.

3. But for non-Russian markets that have a team, they tend to fare pretty well in attendance, which is huge appeal for KHL imho.

Other non-Russian markets (aside from Medvescak, but we knew that team wasn't going to work beyond few years) that I've yet to mention so far are doing pretty well for themselves:
- Minsk : Playoff bubble team but very strong attendance figure year after year. Having a weak domestic league allows Dinamo to be more or less a national representative team. Boom - success!
- Jokerit : One of the better teams in the Western Conference year after year, not to mention their arena located right in middle of Helsinki and a strong fanbase. Boom - success (though they should be doing better imo)!
- Slovan : See Minsk. Boom - success!
- Barys : Not as high as any of the three aforementioned, but doing well on their own right. Another bubble team, the only difference is that Astana is not the biggest city nor the commercial centre of this country- that'd be Almaty.

One of the things they have going for them - is national pride. Belorussians rally around Minsk, because they're Belorussians. Easiest marketing ever. Same with Slovan, Bratislava. And yes, both teams have generational roots. Jokerit benefits from being the only Finnish team, but their ability to seize on being the first Finnish team to market in the KHL, certainly helps. Astana is on a slow incline, and I think that Almaty also has the capacity to join the KHL. They both have amazing venues.

4. But there is limit to how far can KHL expand into. Expansion into Sweden is not happening, nor is it feasible in Denmark (they have their own league and it's holding their own) nor Norway (see Denmark). Czech league is solid and I don't know if they'll come back to Praha after the failure of Lev.....which I actually cannot comment on without personal bias due to my connection to Praha. Germany? Maybe, but will their magical 2018 run continue? That, I would bet unlikely on.

I also know Korea's not getting a KHL franchise- it would simply not work.

The Korean Hockey Experiment failed. But if China and Japan develop their leagues, then Korea might join. The East Asians are fairly competitive with each other. Norway and Denmark won't join in the near future, but they might join later on. They need the sport's popularity to grow. German teams might join the KHL, they need it. DEL only gets you so far. Lev did a bad job at marketing for the attendance. Another team might be able to take advantage of the KHL, and be their nation's first to market team.

I don't buy the argument that just because you have a good national league, your team won't join the KHL. The Finnish SM-Liiga is the third strongest in Europe, behind the KHL and the SHL, and yet, Jokerit is thriving in the KHL.

5. 700k in Russia going further than 1.4M in US only work further because the cost of living there is wayyyyyyyyyyy cheaper especially if we take account into food, transportation, etc (I'll explain to you on how this matters to me through TG). But the question lies upon whether the players' families are interested in moving with them to stay at least for the duration of the contract or even permanently or not.

I'll wait for the TG

BTW, do you know where I can watch the KHL playoffs, and the Euro Hockey Tour live, if I'm living in California? Has to be live, that's the trick.

Given the generalised personalities of N.A. hockey players, that has to be improved because raising kids is a pretty important part by that point. If this part improves, it'll definitely draw better for older players or even younger prospects who do not fit in NHL. Right now that just needs a lot of work.

I completely agree with you on this part. Families should be accommodated, especially when it comes to schools. Most clubs do a great job with it, but it has to be a league-wide effort, rather than just efforts by individual clubs.

6. Demand doesn't always equate with population of this socioeconomic class being able to pay for the ticket. It has just as many issues with culture, history, etc. Southern expansion in NHL worked in part because NHL's already had a team in LA since 1967. LA Kings were pretty good with Marcel Dionne and Rogatien "Rogie" Vachon in 1970s and that's what enabled their survival well into their darker days of 1980s (Robitaille's great, btw) before #99 arrived from Edmonton. Also, LA's pretty big and has a lot of people from rest of the country who are interested in watching their game, etc, not to mention celebrities.

That very true, the History matters, and I think that KHL needs to take advantage of the generational aspect of hockey, and get more teams from Sweden, Finland, Czech Republic, etc. The CSSR had an amazing hockey team. Slovakia might also get another KHL team in Kosice going. Setting up these rivalries can aid hockey's development in Slovakia as well; they need it.

We can't say the same with Red Star Kunlun, because of those demographic differences and poor results in hockey beforehand. Association football's another story of course and basketball works because of Chinese success in both. Hockey? Please......remember China Dragon in Asian League Ice Hockey anyone?

Well, Red Star Kunlun had one season. Let's not rush to judgement. South Korea failed because they had the Olympics. During the time in Sochi, every time the Russians played, it was practically a sellout. The Canadians averaged over 80% of a 12,000 seat stadium. The Czechs were at 70%. Even the qualification playoffs were around 7,500. Semi-finals and the Gold Medal Game, even though the Russians lost - over 10,500 on average. Those are great numbers. That was Sochi.

Enter South Korea. Their group averaged 6,000. The US-Russian group averaged 5,000. Group C - let's not mention them. The qualification bracket - 5,500. Finals and Gold Medal Game? 4,500. What does this mean? There were very few Koreans rooting for their team, and they didn't give a shit about great hockey. NHL or not, the semifinals and Gold Medal Game are always exciting. When your stadium is at 55% capacity, for the most important game of your team, and half of those are Finns...

[Camicon]

Can I get your take on this, Shof?

https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2018/03/putins-yankees-the-russian-hockey-season-was-rigge.html

[Shofercia]

Can I get your take on this, Shof?

https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2018/03/putins-yankees-the-russian-hockey-season-was-rigge.html

Slava Malamud is Russia's version of Alex Jones, and even that comparison might be insulting to Mr. Jones. Usually, Malamud's "logic" is as follows:

Everything in Russia is bad, Russia is totally corrupt, according to anecdotal evidence, ergo Russia's Hockey Team won the Olympics. Wait, what?

Malamud is one of those unique self-haters who was butthurt that Russia won the Gold Medal and must now demonize the KHL, ergo his anti-Datsuyk rant. Apparently Datsuyk soiled his name by taking actions that enabled him to enter the Triple Gold Club. Like I said earlier, there's reality and there's Slava Malamud.

His claim that the season was rigged so that SKA could win the season is moronic, because the goal is to qualify for the playoffs, which SKA was going to do, so that the team could have a chance to win the Gagarin Cup. Would SKA qualify for the playoffs? Considering that they qualified for roughly a decade without Datsuyk, it's kind of a no brainer that they would qualify with Datsuyk. No brainer for you, me, actual hockey fans. For Malamud it's clear proof that the season was rigged.

Malamud then goes on to whine about how SKA gets benefits as Putin's favorite team. Where were said benefits in 2008, 2009, and 2010, where SKA's playoff performance was rather bad. Was Putin not in charge of Russia back then? Perhaps in the World of Malamud.

In reality, SKA is a powerhouse because of intelligent team building, having the second biggest fan base in the KHL, funny how Malamud failed to mention that the two "favored" teams just happen to have the biggest fan bases, CSKA has the biggest fan base, and the combination of Voynov, Datsuyk, and Kovalchuk on ice. It'd be interesting to see if SKA will retain its dominance after Pavel retires.

Just remember: Real Madrid and Barca dominating La Liga is perfectly normal, but SKA and CSKA dominating the KHL is a clear sign of corruption, at least in Malamud's World. Oh, and the season was easier because it decreased from 60 to 56 games.

Now, with all that said, the refs really should've called that offside. Would it have changed much? Nope, but it'd make the game more interesting, and that's what hockey is about. And yet, that was a single incident of a team that was swept.

[Camicon]

*snip*

Yeah, about what I figured you'd say.

[The Royal Kingdom of Quebec]

Calls aside, that article spells bullshit to me:

1) SKA Sankt-Peterburg is a very good team with very good players. Their fanbase is strong (ofc having only one team in that big of a market would do, unlike Moskva where there would be 3).

2) SKA were beaten before and could be beaten in future: CSKA's done that 2-3 seasons ago (I forget what year, because that's the year CSKA lost to Magnitogorsk in Gagarin Cup final after 7 games) back when they had Radulov. They were just beaten lot more before. The same logic can be applied to the team I cheer for CSKA Mosvka : they got outcoached by Keenan or his successor in that Gagarin Cup Final and lost to Lokomotiv Yaroslavl the year before....and CSKA by talent level was favoured that year (to my memory at least).

3) The key issue I have with KHL is the nonexistence of salary cap and top teams pretty much poaching talent from smaller teams to no end- I have less issues with Eastern Conference powers (Kazan, Ufa, Magnitogorsk, etc) than SKA/CSKA doing that simply because the extent just.....gets out of hand. Of course, it's partly to do with SKA being the new powerhouse and CSKA BEING CSKA FUCKING MOSKVA but there needs to be a much better job done on revenue sharing and salary cap, not to mention entry draft system.

4) The claims seem to be not as substantiated given the way this guy tweeted it all out.

If we apply Malmoud's logic to figure skating, why aren't Peterburgian coaches headed by legendary Alexei Mishin getting better skaters and producing better skaters than the CSKA Moskva legion led by legendary Tatiana Tarasova and up-and-coming Eteri Tutberidze? Such logic of SKA getting all the support because it's StP is just ridiculous.

The lack of parity is an issue, especially when you have teams like SKA with unlimited funds. On the other hand, it's also a benefit, because it makes it easier to recruit players for other teams that want to play against SKA, CSKA, etc. It's like the Spanish Soccer League playing against Real Madrid, or Barca, or Atletico Madrid. So it's both, good and bad. Spartak fell out due to mismanagement. The management fucked up the main sponsorship - that's really bad. At the same time, we get teams like Chelyabinsk, that goes toe to toe with the giants, the Leicester City of the KHL, so that's always fun to watch.

Atlant was out due to competition being very tough in Moscow. The others, CSKA, Dynamo, Spartak, all have Soviet Histories, and generational fan bases. That said, the KHL needs a revenue sharing structure that's more equitable, at least when it comes to broadcasting and sponsorship. The stadium construction costs are also an issue - HC Sochi thrives because they got a free 12,000 seat stadium.

It is less so the case when their opponents don't have the financial foundation nor the developmental system nor enough ability to poach players from other teams' developmental systems. It's like with baseball, but worse- even with Chelyabinsk such case would be one-year wonder to the point where we know it's to going to happen again due to lack of revenue sharing, salary cap.

CSKA's fans were promised a new stadium, they were super excited, but it didn't pan out. So the team lost an average of 1,000 fans per game over that. That's a huge hit for any team, even the ones playing in the NHL. CSKA desperately needs to revive their fan base, rather than adopting the current "if we play, they'll come" approach that they have. But look at how well Spartak rebounded. 2013-2014 season - 3,521 fans. 2014-2015 - on hiatus. 2015-2016 - 6,193 fans. And last season - 7,288.

Exactly what I thought (was gauging your response). Moscow is an excellent hockey market, but right now their barn....is just a big no-no and they aren't doing enough. It's disgraceful especially in comparison to SKA, Jokerit and even Dynamo.

Kunlun played in the KHL for only a year. Can't build a fanbase that quickly. Keep in mind - most of those teams are generational teams. It's too early for Kunlun. Dinamo Riga got hit hard, lost over 1,000 fans, going from 5,780 in 2015-2016 to 4,457 in 2016-2017. But they might be able to recover, especially since the 2021 World Championship is being shared between Minsk and Riga.

Sometimes I feel you are being too optimistic on the possibility of hockey developing in China. Korea and Japan, especially Japan, has had longer history (and in Japan's case, actual wins when they mattered) but China's had next to no history with hockey and their initial attempt at a semi-pro hockey team was China Dragon based in Harbin. It went terribly and nobody went to watch their games. What is there to suggest that Red Star Kunlyn is going to do better? Even fanbases on challenging markets survive because they show their support in early years - see Las Vegas, Tampa Bay, Nashville, etc. There's already way too many competing teams and sports in Shanghai or Beijing.

One of the things they have going for them - is national pride. Belorussians rally around Minsk, because they're Belorussians. Easiest marketing ever. Same with Slovan, Bratislava. And yes, both teams have generational roots. Jokerit benefits from being the only Finnish team, but their ability to seize on being the first Finnish team to market in the KHL, certainly helps. Astana is on a slow incline, and I think that Almaty also has the capacity to join the KHL. They both have amazing venues.

I would say in 5-10 years it would be possible to see another Kazakh team. Almaty would have been a better pick to join KHL back when it came down to Astana or Almaty, due to economics and whatnot.

The only downside with having a second team in Kazakhstan is the team depth and the players' talent depth from Kazakhstanis alone (not BBD line btw). The pipeline needs to continue or do better than right now because if they keep on declining (we don't see that many NHL players hailing from Belarus, Kazakhstan or Ukraine these days), having a second team would not help either on competitive basis.

The Korean Hockey Experiment failed. But if China and Japan develop their leagues, then Korea might join. The East Asians are fairly competitive with each other. Norway and Denmark won't join in the near future, but they might join later on. They need the sport's popularity to grow. German teams might join the KHL, they need it. DEL only gets you so far. Lev did a bad job at marketing for the attendance. Another team might be able to take advantage of the KHL, and be their nation's first to market team.

I don't buy the argument that just because you have a good national league, your team won't join the KHL. The Finnish SM-Liiga is the third strongest in Europe, behind the KHL and the SHL, and yet, Jokerit is thriving in the KHL.

Once again, you're being too positive with Asian market for hockey. Korea and Japan, as well as Sakhalin province specifically in Russia, have their own league named Asia League Ice Hockey. The quality of hockey there is not as bad as either of us would initially expect it to be, and the fan support is there (esp. with Anyang Halla and the Japanese teams - not sure about Sakhalin but I assume they do as well). Also the "East Asians are competitive with each other" won't work if the sport's interest and priority in the eyes of the people are much lower than the usual sports (e.g. basketball, volleyball, etc)- heck the interest in Korea-Japan basketball match would be much lower than Korea-China simply because Japan has been largely irrelevant in Asian basketball scene.

Agreed about Norway and Denmark, they have a small but solid league anyway. Norway they already have a good senior level team, while with Denmark they have promising juniors already coming up to NHL (e.g. Nikolaj Ehlers, whom I had pleasure to watch few games streamed back when he was lighting QMJHL up). DEL and National League have the size, capacity and interest to have a KHL team, it's just I said that it would be unlikely for German NT to repeat such success on international basis. As for the team itself, it's more likely to be on DEL because a) National League is very well established and b) there is no clear standout club that may join the league (e.g. CSKA Moskva, Jokerit, etc). In addition the lack of cultural connection to Russia would not make it particularly feasible.

I'll wait for the TG

BTW, do you know where I can watch the KHL playoffs, and the Euro Hockey Tour live, if I'm living in California? Has to be live, that's the trick.

I'm in Eastern Ontario, Canada, so I won't be able to answer for bars or anywhere....I won't be watching a lot of KHL games for while due to schoolwork.

But back when I used to watch more, it's goatdee.net that I used. Very effective if you ask me on that! They do it live too!

I completely agree with you on this part. Families should be accommodated, especially when it comes to schools. Most clubs do a great job with it, but it has to be a league-wide effort, rather than just efforts by individual clubs.

Yeah. If done on league basis, like how CHL promises its juniors an educational package should they go to university after their last season in juniors hockey (usually meaning their 20th-21st year), I think KHL will have better luck drawing FAs. While Moskva and StP are both very expensive cities to live, I have heard from many sources that at least the food supplies and whatnot are way cheaper than in Canada. So the cost of living is not the issue. Education is another story and that's where KHL really needs to do some work.

That very true, the History matters, and I think that KHL needs to take advantage of the generational aspect of hockey, and get more teams from Sweden, Finland, Czech Republic, etc. The CSSR had an amazing hockey team. Slovakia might also get another KHL team in Kosice going. Setting up these rivalries can aid hockey's development in Slovakia as well; they need it.

I would actually recommend KHL teams to be more active in Champions Hockey League. By having KHL teams play in CHL, one can promote such national / international rivalries within and outside- heck, Jokerit can play JYP, Karpat and Espoo Blues as an interleague, domestic contest and that can draw very well in terms of attendance. Right now, expecting more teams from teams out of former Soviet nations may be a bit stretch anyway.

We can't say the same with Red Star Kunlun, because of those demographic differences and poor results in hockey beforehand. Association football's another story of course and basketball works because of Chinese success in both. Hockey? Please......remember China Dragon in Asian League Ice Hockey anyone?

Well, Red Star Kunlun had one season. Let's not rush to judgement. South Korea failed because they had the Olympics. During the time in Sochi, every time the Russians played, it was practically a sellout. The Canadians averaged over 80% of a 12,000 seat stadium. The Czechs were at 70%. Even the qualification playoffs were around 7,500. Semi-finals and the Gold Medal Game, even though the Russians lost - over 10,500 on average. Those are great numbers. That was Sochi.

Enter South Korea. Their group averaged 6,000. The US-Russian group averaged 5,000. Group C - let's not mention them. The qualification bracket - 5,500. Finals and Gold Medal Game? 4,500. What does this mean? There were very few Koreans rooting for their team, and they didn't give a shit about great hockey. NHL or not, the semifinals and Gold Medal Game are always exciting. When your stadium is at 55% capacity, for the most important game of your team, and half of those are Finns...[/quote]
I've already stated on reasons above that I do not expect any higher or more commercially viable numbers if in China, Shoferica. Hockey game attendances in Korea was lot higher than what I had expected simply because hockey's nowhere near the top sport in terms of Korean public's minds. What is there for you to suggest that China, where people give even lesser of shit about the sport they barrreeeeely know, is going to give a shit about hockey? And I do not mean in attendance basis- think of it in long term. It's more than just 'build/host it and they'll come' because we're talking about a different continent here (and that's the one I'm very familiar about, myself being a Korean-Canadian with a decade of my life spent there).

Sochi's another story of course- it's in fucking Russia of all places! If you don't sell out key games in Sochi, I would have been disappointed.

[Jello Biafra]

Any chance for the Penguins to get a three-peat shot at the Stanley Cup?

Yes, there's a chance. A few other teams are more likely to win the Cup, but I'd say the Penguins are 5th or 6th-most likely.