Success of Obamacare, and Debunking Myths

[Todeslager]

I see a bizarre conflation of anarchocapitalism / minarchism with feudalism that reveals a stark raving ignorance of one or the other or both.

It's not quite a conflation. It's a cause-effect relationship.

Ancap or Minarchism lead to rapid monopolization and the suppression of new competition, which leads to neo-feudalism. In Neo-feudalism, while the corporation technically doesn't own you, your choice boils down to do what they say or be left with nothing.

Source? Historical examples of anarchocapitalist / minarchic regimes and neo-feudalist regimes?

[The Black Forrest]

It's not quite a conflation. It's a cause-effect relationship.

Ancap or Minarchism lead to rapid monopolization and the suppression of new competition, which leads to neo-feudalism. In Neo-feudalism, while the corporation technically doesn't own you, your choice boils down to do what they say or be left with nothing.

And I am sure you have evidence you can cite to support modern libertarianism leading to feudalism .

Has there ever been a modern libertarian society?

[Llamalandia]

huh well screw me, guess its probably closer to 25% nowadays. Though Im sure a few independents agree me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_party_strength_in_U.S._states

and just to be clear if your are over 18 and dont vote you dont matter.

All right. Maybe my scanning powers are bad today but where is the percentage believing it's not immoral to let the poor die?

Well since when do I need to ebul republicans are evil and hate people.

[The Black Forrest]

All right. Maybe my scanning powers are bad today but where is the percentage believing it's not immoral to let the poor die?

Well since when do I need to ebul republicans are evil and hate people.

Ohhhh so you made it up? Ok.

[Todeslager]

which is rather rare.

Not to mention untrue. People do not retain ownership of tax money after it has been paid to the government, no more than they retain ownership of money paid to a utility or a store. Why is that such a difficult concept for people to grasp?

Actually, income taxation in the U.S. pretty much works out to be a zero-interest loan to the federal government (extracted at the threat of gunpoint...) from which at the end of the year you file documentation to plead for a refund of some of your investment.

Edit: Or a redistribution of someone else's investment to you by virtue of your non-contribution / non-productiveness / breeding habits...

[Todeslager]

And I am sure you have evidence you can cite to support modern libertarianism leading to feudalism .

Has there ever been a modern libertarian society?

Unlike communism, libertarianism truly is the idea no one has ever implemented.

[The Black Forrest]

Has there ever been a modern libertarian society?

Unlike communism, libertarianism truly is the idea no one has ever implemented.

It probably never will.

Most people don't work in that mindset. People tend to want authority. Why else do we have a classification of alpha personalities?

[BK117B2]

If true, then just cite the part of the Constitution backing your claim that 'as long as the penalty is legal, then the (in)action for which it is assessed is automatically Constitutional.' Come on, don't be shy

If the penalty is legal as a tax, then what is your cause of action against the fed? In order to bring a constitutional claim against a government entity, you must show the government caused harm to you by acting unconstitutionally. Common law principles require that a case requires such cause of action or there is no remedy needed.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictiona ... +of+action

Congress's mandate carries with it no cause of action once you concur that the penalty itself is legal under the sixteenth amendment as previously shown. You must show, under common law principles, that the mandate caused you harm to bring action against it. The penalty, or tax, is inextricably tied to the mandate itself.

You're not sating anything relevant to my point. 'Well it didn't hurt me' in no way magically makes something Constitutional

[Todeslager]

Unlike communism, libertarianism truly is the idea no one has ever implemented.

It probably never will.

Most people don't work in that mindset. People tend to want authority. Why else do we have a classification of alpha personalities?

Well someone has to pay the bills. Libertarians tend to want to be their own Alphas, and pay their own bills.

And not delude themselves with the socialist / totalitarian zeal to rob people and call it charity and altruism.

[BK117B2]

People have lots of money, if they decide to give enough of it to charity then cahrity will solve the problem. That said, I never make the assertion that private charity would be sufficient just that it is in my mind the only legitimate route to charity. Either way it is not the proper role of govt to step in and foot the bill.

Ok private charity isn't getting the job done so who else should do it?

If people won't donate enough to do it, then they certainly have no justification in demanding that someone else do it.

[The Black Forrest]

It probably never will.

Most people don't work in that mindset. People tend to want authority. Why else do we have a classification of alpha personalities?

Well someone has to pay the bills. Libertarians tend to want to be their own Alphas, and pay their own bills.

And not delude themselves with the socialist / totalitarian zeal to rob people and call it charity and altruism.

Problem is you can't all be alphas which is where the devolving into a neo-fuedalism argument arises. People are going to want to be in charge of all.

[The Black Forrest]

Ok private charity isn't getting the job done so who else should do it?

If people won't donate enough to do it, then they certainly have no justification in demanding that someone else do it.

Ok so you agree private charity can't do the job.

[Steamtopia]

If people won't donate enough to do it, then they certainly have no justification in demanding that someone else do it.

Ok so you agree private charity can't do the job.

And that nothing should be done about it is the important bit.

[BK117B2]

No I am for libertarianism but yeah, I am pretty sympathetic to anarch0 capitalists I think. Feudalism not so much.

Neo-feudalism arises from strict libertarianism/anarco-capitalism whether you believe in it or not.

In the absence of government, there is nothing to stop corporate exploitation and monopolization. Corporations inevitably become large enough to enforce their own law of the land.

Except that absence of government has nothing to do with libertarianism. That's an anarchist sort of thing

[Russels Orbiting Teapot]

Except that absence of government has nothing to do with libertarianism. That's an anarchist sort of thing

You're right. Libertarians just believe in a government small enough to fit inside a woman's uterus.

[BK117B2]

Oh yes and yet no one has been able to show me in the aca legislation it says explicitly that the individual mandate is a tax.

We've explained it repeatedly. You've refused to understand because #Sophistry

That's just it....now try making the argument WITHOUT any sophisms

[Todeslager]

Well someone has to pay the bills. Libertarians tend to want to be their own Alphas, and pay their own bills.

And not delude themselves with the socialist / totalitarian zeal to rob people and call it charity and altruism.

Problem is you can't all be alphas which is where they devolving into a neo-fuedalism argument arises. People are going to want to be in charge of all.

I often chuckle at socialist / totalitarian attempts to a) categorize humanity as selfish, soulless, immoral / amoral creatures (themselves excepted, naturally) and b) attempt to justify their covetous drive to commit larceny against said creatures for "their own good."

Might as well be championing riparian rights for mosquitoes.

[BK117B2]

If people won't donate enough to do it, then they certainly have no justification in demanding that someone else do it.

Ok so you agree private charity can't do the job.

If those calling for government to do it ACTUALLY care, it would be more than enough to do the job. The problem is that few of them really care much....they only want it if OTHER people will do the paying. That's why they choose to legislate more than they choose to donate.

[Esternial]

Problem is you can't all be alphas which is where they devolving into a neo-fuedalism argument arises. People are going to want to be in charge of all.

I often chuckle at socialist / totalitarian attempts to a) categorize humanity as selfish, soulless, immoral / amoral creatures (themselves excepted, naturally) and b) attempt to justify their covetous drive to commit larceny against said creatures for "their own good."

Might as well be championing riparian rights for mosquitoes.

I'm sure your rhetoric is chuckle-worthy at least, too, don't you worry your pretty little head.

[Todeslager]

Except that absence of government has nothing to do with libertarianism. That's an anarchist sort of thing

You're right. Libertarians just believe in a government small enough to fit inside a woman's uterus.

And there's that stark raving ignorance of libertarian thought again.

Most uterine-centric physical autonomy arguments spring from a social libertarian framework. Uh, duh.

[BK117B2]

Except that absence of government has nothing to do with libertarianism. That's an anarchist sort of thing

You're right. Libertarians just believe in a government small enough to fit inside a woman's uterus.

Libertarians support the right of women to control over their own bodies. You're thinking of the authoritarians

[Saiwania]

You're right. Libertarians just believe in a government small enough to fit inside a woman's uterus.

So far as I can tell, libertarians in general fall within the "pro-choice on abortion" crowd. Libertarians are conservative on economic issues but are liberal on social ones and for that reason regular conservatives disagree sharply with libertarians on various matters such as drug legalization. A conservative might use religion/tradition to enforce a certain morality but a libertarian simply won't care about banning certain things pertaining to personal choice.

[The Black Forrest]

Problem is you can't all be alphas which is where they devolving into a neo-fuedalism argument arises. People are going to want to be in charge of all.

I often chuckle at socialist / totalitarian attempts to a) categorize humanity as selfish, soulless, immoral / amoral creatures (themselves excepted, naturally) and b) attempt to justify their covetous drive to commit larceny against said creatures for "their own good."

Might as well be championing riparian rights for mosquitoes.

Hmpf. I didn't know I was a socialist let alone a totalitarian. But whatever. Keep shaking that fist at the sky and lecturing how things will be better if only people would listen.

[Todeslager]

I often chuckle at socialist / totalitarian attempts to a) categorize humanity as selfish, soulless, immoral / amoral creatures (themselves excepted, naturally) and b) attempt to justify their covetous drive to commit larceny against said creatures for "their own good."

Might as well be championing riparian rights for mosquitoes.

I'm sure your rhetoric is chuckle-worthy at least, too, don't you worry your pretty little head.

Perhaps one day I will numb myself sufficiently to get through the first few pages of Marx's guide to what bomb throwing bank robbing terrorists were really thinking without laughing my head off, but I don't foresee it coming soon.

[Esternial]

Ok so you agree private charity can't do the job.

If those calling for government to do it ACTUALLY care, it would be more than enough to do the job.

Nice conjecture.