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Success of Obamacare, and Debunking Myths

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Llamalandia
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Postby Llamalandia » Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:09 am

Alien Space Bats wrote:
Llamalandia wrote:But what you suggest would require state cooperation, many states would still refuse to participate. Your argument might have merit for those states that tried and ultimately failed at building there own exchanges perhaps but it still seems to me to be a bit of a stretch.

Now you get to the heart of what's at stake here.

States like Texas and Georgia that have fought the ACA could declare that they don't have a State exchange and effectively deny their residents access to Federal subsidies, thus screwing their lower-income residents over by pricing them out of the health insurance market and so subsequently making them pay the required tax instead.

On the other hand, states like Michigan and Illinois that have elected to use the Federal exchange while also expanding Medicaid would still be able to partner with the Federal government, simply by saying that they're using the Federal Marketplace servers and software architecture to host "their" State Marketplaces.

The thing is, only seven States use the Federal Marketplace for their State insurance exchanges: Michigan, Illinois, West Virginia, Delaware, New Hampshire, Arkansas and Iowa. So the question arises: Will the loss of the other 27 States that use the Federal Marketplace in one form or another result in the collapse of the Federal exchange.

The answer, I believe, is no. Because insurance is sold by carriers licensed within each State for sales within each State, each State market essentially stands (or falls) on its own. Using my home State of Michigan as an example, the failure of Texas to allow its lower-income taxpayers to purchase insurance on the Federal exchange won't impact Michigan insureds at all (unless it results in the failure of one or more companies that do business in both States, or so distresses one or more carriers to the point where they have to raise premiums in Michigan in order to continue to operate — and that seems unlikely).

Where the impact WILL be felt is on in those States that cut off access to Federal premium subsidies. These States will be hurting themselves in two significant ways:

  • First, they'll be increasing the Federal tax burden on their lower-income citizens (and on many of their smaller businesses) without a corresponding tax cut to balance the scales from a macroeconomic POV; that will depress business activity within these States both by taking money away from consumers (and consumers who are generally iclined to spend everything they take in as is, increasing the multiplier effect from said tax increase) and by increasing operating costs for their smaller to medium-sized businesses (which will hurt these businesses competitiveness). In comparison, States that embrace both the Medicaid expansion AND the Marketplace will enjoy both a fiscal stimulus and a competitive advantage from a business expansion from their decision to do so.

  • Second, thanks to the termination of subsidies to emergency health care providers (for the treatment of uninsured individuals), such States will suffer even greater business failures within their State healthcare industries due to uncompensated care losses (as well as a reduction in paid business from lower-income families no longer having affordable access to health care, and thus no longer going to the doctor for care [including specialty care, which is where many of these health care providers make the bulk of their profits]). Lower profits and higher costs will result in a contraction within each of these States' healthcare industries, further exacerbating their macroeconomic woes while driving up healthcare costs due to supply-side pressure. These two effects will then snowball, damaging businesses and driving both healthcare costs and insurance premiums up further over time — exactly as would have happened naturally across the US had the ACA not been enacted.
In essence, we will have two Americas, and will get a case study in the effects of the ACA: In one America, most people will have insurance and (as demand pushes business expansion) more and better healthcare; likewise, businesses in these States will be better able to insure their employees than in the other America.

And that other America? It will end up with an increasingly small number of insured individuals, far fewer jobs that offer insurance, far fewer health care providers, and much poorer health care outcomes. To survive economically, it will have to function as the other America's China: A low-wage provider of "exports" with poor health and a poorer overall standard of living. The only wrinkle is that it will also be paying a goodly chunk of the wealthier America's healthcare.


It's never really been about whether or not obamacare works though, I mean not fundamentally speaking anyway. Rather it is about the principle of the thing, to we want the govt telling people how to live their lives or do we want to let people make their own decisions. Now I know that most people are pretty freaking stupid and make pretty bad decisions but that doesn't mean they don't have a right to make those decisions.

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Ashmoria
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Postby Ashmoria » Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:13 am

Llamalandia wrote:
Ashmoria wrote:*shrug* that varies from mandate to mandate.

sucks to be you, eh? the majority of people are very happy with the government doing things that help people. its not going to change any time soon.


Well then maybe it is time for a revolution. or more likely the silently majority will eventually elect another reaganesque republican who will rollback this crap.

crap like federal insurance regulations? I don't think so.
whatever

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Llamalandia
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Postby Llamalandia » Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:16 am

Ashmoria wrote:
Llamalandia wrote:
Well then maybe it is time for a revolution. or more likely the silently majority will eventually elect another reaganesque republican who will rollback this crap.

crap like federal insurance regulations? I don't think so.


It is possible. But besdies republicans and the public don't necessarily hate all of obama care, the mandate is pretty untenable though. and the subsidies are massive, hopefully some fiscal conservatives will take care of that problem.

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Russels Orbiting Teapot
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Postby Russels Orbiting Teapot » Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:27 am

Llamalandia wrote:It's never really been about whether or not obamacare works though, I mean not fundamentally speaking anyway. Rather it is about the principle of the thing, to we want the govt telling people how to live their lives or do we want to let people make their own decisions. Now I know that most people are pretty freaking stupid and make pretty bad decisions but that doesn't mean they don't have a right to make those decisions.


I spent two years working with people who were being foreclosed on in the wake of the 2008 crisis. I like to say that I was in the trenches of the last recession. A huge number of the people I worked with were being foreclosed on because of medical bills.

The government restricts our choices all the time. It doesn't let us buy potentially tainted food even if it's cheaper. We are getting to the point as a society where not having some form of health insurance is as dangerous as drinking poison.

Society cannot just ignore people who refuse to buy insurance: we end up treating them anyway, in ERs, at massive expense. We need a solution.

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Llamalandia
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Postby Llamalandia » Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:32 am

Russels Orbiting Teapot wrote:
Llamalandia wrote:It's never really been about whether or not obamacare works though, I mean not fundamentally speaking anyway. Rather it is about the principle of the thing, to we want the govt telling people how to live their lives or do we want to let people make their own decisions. Now I know that most people are pretty freaking stupid and make pretty bad decisions but that doesn't mean they don't have a right to make those decisions.


I spent two years working with people who were being foreclosed on in the wake of the 2008 crisis. I like to say that I was in the trenches of the last recession. A huge number of the people I worked with were being foreclosed on because of medical bills.

The government restricts our choices all the time. It doesn't let us buy potentially tainted food even if it's cheaper. We are getting to the point as a society where not having some form of health insurance is as dangerous as drinking poison.

Society cannot just ignore people who refuse to buy insurance: we end up treating them anyway, in ERs, at massive expense. We need a solution.


Umm ok, well the govt did a brilliant job creating the housing crisis to begin with, why would you want them involved with health insurance markets as well?

Meh, if people want tainted food and they know what they are buying well it is there choice.

We could just scrap EMTALA ya know.

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Russels Orbiting Teapot
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Postby Russels Orbiting Teapot » Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:35 am

Llamalandia wrote:Umm ok, well the govt did a brilliant job creating the housing crisis to begin with, why would you want them involved with health insurance markets as well?

Meh, if people want tainted food and they know what they are buying well it is there choice.

We could just scrap EMTALA ya know.


Whatever. Your an anarco-capitalist/neo feudalist at this point.

Let the poor eat poisoned food. Let them die in the streets without aid. Who gives a fuck.

Fuck you got mine amirite?

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Llamalandia
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Postby Llamalandia » Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:37 am

Russels Orbiting Teapot wrote:
Llamalandia wrote:Umm ok, well the govt did a brilliant job creating the housing crisis to begin with, why would you want them involved with health insurance markets as well?

Meh, if people want tainted food and they know what they are buying well it is there choice.

We could just scrap EMTALA ya know.


Whatever. Your an anarco-capitalist/neo feudalist at this point.

Let the poor eat poisoned food. Let them die in the streets without aid. Who gives a fuck.

Fuck you got mine amirite?


No I am fine with private charity. I just don't want the govt to be the one providing it given that they use the threat of force to extract tax dollars from people.

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Russels Orbiting Teapot
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Postby Russels Orbiting Teapot » Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:49 am

Llamalandia wrote:No I am fine with private charity. I just don't want the govt to be the one providing it given that they use the threat of force to extract tax dollars from people.


Please demonstrate that private charity can handle the healthcare needs of the poor.

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Llamalandia
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Postby Llamalandia » Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:53 am

Russels Orbiting Teapot wrote:
Llamalandia wrote:No I am fine with private charity. I just don't want the govt to be the one providing it given that they use the threat of force to extract tax dollars from people.


Please demonstrate that private charity can handle the healthcare needs of the poor.


People have lots of money, if they decide to give enough of it to charity then cahrity will solve the problem. That said, I never make the assertion that private charity would be sufficient just that it is in my mind the only legitimate route to charity. Either way it is not the proper role of govt to step in and foot the bill.

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The Qeiiam Galaxy
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Postby The Qeiiam Galaxy » Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:00 pm

Llamalandia wrote:
Russels Orbiting Teapot wrote:
Please demonstrate that private charity can handle the healthcare needs of the poor.


People have lots of money, if they decide to give enough of it to charity then cahrity will solve the problem. That said, I never make the assertion that private charity would be sufficient just that it is in my mind the only legitimate route to charity. Either way it is not the proper role of govt to step in and foot the bill.

Yes, and that worked so well in the past.
...
Oh, wait, it didn't! That's why the government had to intervene in the first place!

And isn't one of the governments jobs to "promote the general welfare" or something Marxist-sounding like that?

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Russels Orbiting Teapot
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Postby Russels Orbiting Teapot » Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:02 pm

Llamalandia wrote:People have lots of money, if they decide to give enough of it to charity then cahrity will solve the problem. That said, I never make the assertion that private charity would be sufficient just that it is in my mind the only legitimate route to charity. Either way it is not the proper role of govt to step in and foot the bill.


So even if the result is millions dying in the streets, you just don't give a fuck?

Sorry, I can't bring myself.to be that immoral.

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Esternial
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Postby Esternial » Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:03 pm

Llamalandia wrote:
Russels Orbiting Teapot wrote:
Please demonstrate that private charity can handle the healthcare needs of the poor.


People have lots of money, if they decide to give enough of it to charity then cahrity will solve the problem. That said, I never make the assertion that private charity would be sufficient just that it is in my mind the only legitimate route to charity. Either way it is not the proper role of govt to step in and foot the bill.

Glad you don't get to make calls on what our government can or cannot do.

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Llamalandia
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Postby Llamalandia » Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:06 pm

Russels Orbiting Teapot wrote:
Llamalandia wrote:People have lots of money, if they decide to give enough of it to charity then cahrity will solve the problem. That said, I never make the assertion that private charity would be sufficient just that it is in my mind the only legitimate route to charity. Either way it is not the proper role of govt to step in and foot the bill.


So even if the result is millions dying in the streets, you just don't give a fuck?

Sorry, I can't bring myself.to be that immoral.


It is no more immoral than taking money from people against their will to fund care to prevent it. Also that isn't and wouldn't happen in a developed country anyway. Not in the millions anyway, more likely hospitals would still treat them, and just hire insanely aggressive debt collectors.

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Llamalandia
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Postby Llamalandia » Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:07 pm

Esternial wrote:
Llamalandia wrote:
People have lots of money, if they decide to give enough of it to charity then cahrity will solve the problem. That said, I never make the assertion that private charity would be sufficient just that it is in my mind the only legitimate route to charity. Either way it is not the proper role of govt to step in and foot the bill.

Glad you don't get to make calls on what our government can or cannot do.


Hahahahah thats what you think.

signed,

Barack Obama

President of the United States

Jk. :p

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Llamalandia
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Postby Llamalandia » Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:08 pm

The Qeiiam Galaxy wrote:
Llamalandia wrote:
People have lots of money, if they decide to give enough of it to charity then cahrity will solve the problem. That said, I never make the assertion that private charity would be sufficient just that it is in my mind the only legitimate route to charity. Either way it is not the proper role of govt to step in and foot the bill.

Yes, and that worked so well in the past.
...
Oh, wait, it didn't! That's why the government had to intervene in the first place!

And isn't one of the governments jobs to "promote the general welfare" or something Marxist-sounding like that?


No not actually at least not in a strictly legal sense. If that clause were actually operative the govt could literally do just about anything so long as it were "a promotion of welfare in general".

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Russels Orbiting Teapot
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Postby Russels Orbiting Teapot » Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:11 pm

Llamalandia wrote:It is no more immoral than taking money from people against their will to fund care to prevent it. Also that isn't and wouldn't happen in a developed country anyway. Not in the millions anyway, more likely hospitals would still treat them, and just hire insanely aggressive debt collectors.


So just millions falling into debt slavery then. So much better.

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Ashmoria
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Postby Ashmoria » Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:14 pm

Llamalandia wrote:
Russels Orbiting Teapot wrote:
So even if the result is millions dying in the streets, you just don't give a fuck?

Sorry, I can't bring myself.to be that immoral.


It is no more immoral than taking money from people against their will to fund care to prevent it. Also that isn't and wouldn't happen in a developed country anyway. Not in the millions anyway, more likely hospitals would still treat them, and just hire insanely aggressive debt collectors.


lol yeah TAXES are the moral equivalent of dying in the street.
whatever

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Russels Orbiting Teapot
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Postby Russels Orbiting Teapot » Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:40 pm

Llamalandia wrote:No not actually at least not in a strictly legal sense. If that clause were actually operative the govt could literally do just about anything so long as it were "a promotion of welfare in general".


As long as it doesn't violate another constitutional protection, that is exactly what it means.

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Llamalandia
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Postby Llamalandia » Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:00 pm

Ashmoria wrote:
Llamalandia wrote:
It is no more immoral than taking money from people against their will to fund care to prevent it. Also that isn't and wouldn't happen in a developed country anyway. Not in the millions anyway, more likely hospitals would still treat them, and just hire insanely aggressive debt collectors.


lol yeah TAXES are the moral equivalent of dying in the street.


Letting some one die is necessarily immoral though to begin with. Taking something that doesn't belong to you clearly undisputedly is though.

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Llamalandia
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Postby Llamalandia » Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:03 pm

Russels Orbiting Teapot wrote:
Llamalandia wrote:No not actually at least not in a strictly legal sense. If that clause were actually operative the govt could literally do just about anything so long as it were "a promotion of welfare in general".


As long as it doesn't violate another constitutional protection, that is exactly what it means.


Ok, well tenth amendment bro. If the power is one delegated by the constitution, then feds have no right to exercise it. It may be in the interest of general welfare to ban intrastate sale of sugary soda for instance, but the feds aren't delegated the power to regulated intrastate commerce only interstate commerce, despite the general welfare clause.

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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:13 pm

Llamalandia wrote:
Russels Orbiting Teapot wrote:
Please demonstrate that private charity can handle the healthcare needs of the poor.


People have lots of money, if they decide to give enough of it to charity then cahrity will solve the problem. That said, I never make the assertion that private charity would be sufficient just that it is in my mind the only legitimate route to charity. Either way it is not the proper role of govt to step in and foot the bill.


Ok private charity isn't getting the job done so who else should do it?
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:14 pm

Llamalandia wrote:
Ashmoria wrote:
lol yeah TAXES are the moral equivalent of dying in the street.


Letting some one die is necessarily immoral though to begin with. Taking something that doesn't belong to you clearly undisputedly is though.


Sure. If they have a terminal disease and ask to die.

You aren't going to start with taxes are theft know are you?
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

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Russels Orbiting Teapot
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Postby Russels Orbiting Teapot » Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:14 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:Ok private charity isn't getting the job done so who else should do it?


He's already clarified that the answer is #FuckYouGotMine

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Russels Orbiting Teapot
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Postby Russels Orbiting Teapot » Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:16 pm

Llamalandia wrote:Ok, well tenth amendment bro. If the power is one delegated by the constitution, then feds have no right to exercise it. It may be in the interest of general welfare to ban intrastate sale of sugary soda for instance, but the feds aren't delegated the power to regulated intrastate commerce only interstate commerce, despite the general welfare clause.


'To provide for the general welfare' is a power delegated by the constitution.

Also the power to collect taxes.

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Ashmoria
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Postby Ashmoria » Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:16 pm

Russels Orbiting Teapot wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:Ok private charity isn't getting the job done so who else should do it?


He's already clarified that the answer is #FuckYouGotMine

yeah he did but I don't think he has his. I think he thinks he is GOING to have his. poor thing.
whatever

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