Success of Obamacare, and Debunking Myths

[Galloism]

Will you pay off my ACA penalties if I drop my health insurance plan, and adjust my withholdings to never owe anything but ACA penalties, and find out in 20 years I can't get my Social Security retirement bennies or draw on my 401(k) until 20 years of back ACA penalties are paid? Can I get that in writing?

How exactly is it a penalty if I can simply write a letter opting not to pay it? Does that accrued penalty debt ever go away? Does it eventually have to be paid to access entitlements?

Quit obfuscating, it's lame, and I'm tired of pureeing this dead horse.

Similar to any other tax avoidance, the IRS can't garnish entitlements or retirement plans. Also, similar to small tax avoidance, the IRS probably will never audit you or really give a shit given their shoestring budget.

Uh... failing to pay regular income tax certainly can lead to garnishment of certain entitlements and retirement plans. Structure is important on the latter. Sometimes they can levy the plan, and sometimes only garnish distributions from the plan.

[Kelinfort]

Similar to any other tax avoidance, the IRS can't garnish entitlements or retirement plans. Also, similar to small tax avoidance, the IRS probably will never audit you or really give a shit given their shoestring budget.

Uh... failing to pay regular income tax certainly can lead to garnishment of certain entitlements and retirement plans. Structure is important on the latter. Sometimes they can levy the plan, and sometimes only garnish distributions from the plan.

Huh, well then. Presumably, the ACA is not the same?

[Todeslager]

Ah, the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. That's one of my favorite identifiable leftist substitutes for rationality, because it always spectacularly backfires on the one committing it. Yeah, no one will go to jail for not buying health insurance. They'll instead go to jail for skirting the penalties for not buying health insurance. Nudge nudge, wink wink.

nope. No criminal penalties may be used against someone for failing to pay the ACA tax. It's right there in the statute - which I've already quoted. It doesn't really get more complicated than "it's the law" in this case.

Friday ended with quite a chuckle. I took your argument to my legal guys at the end of the day, and asked them what they made of it, and their answers pretty much settled in the "who is this moron / impersonating a federal tax agent is illegal" category.

Your mileage may vary, of course.

So, if I believed you, either you misrepresented what I had to say, or you need to fire your legal team.

However, since it is now after 10:00 pacific, and I only completed my argument about 30 minutes ago, either you live in a foreign country with foreign lawyers who are ill equipped to comment on US tax law, or you're absolutely full of shit.

I know what my money's on.

Hopefully on a hot dog to go with your fail. Your argument, sketchy and dodgy as it has been, hasn't become less ricockulous in the last 8 hours when you went in to reiteration mode.

Edit: bwahahaha. Impersonating a federal tax agent is illegal. Your "attorneys" don't even know what an enrolled agent is? Allow me to laugh harder.

They know the distinction between an IRS agent and a schmuck doing entry level tax prep at H&R Block with delusions of grandeur, yes.

[Galloism]

Of course he doesn't.


Exactly. And it doesn't even take a genius to figure this shit out. All you have to do is consistently underwithhold, and you're golden.

Under-withhold, accrue a tax bill needing to be paid, and write a snippy letter along with your tax payment telling the IRS not to dick you with an ACA penalty payment and leaving you underpaying your tax bill and facing additional penalties, fines, and jail. And counting on said IRS bureaucracy not to misplace your snippy letter on their way to wiring someone's refund to hackers in Lithuania.

Keeping copies of letters sent to the IRS is important. This is true with any allocation.

Heck, I've done those allocations a few times for people who have come to me with severe tax problems looking for help, although it's typically by tax year not type.

Exception: in a trust fund penalty case, I did allocate a payment entirely to a certain specific portion of late payroll taxes. They accepted it and allocated as requested.

[Galloism]

nope. No criminal penalties may be used against someone for failing to pay the ACA tax. It's right there in the statute - which I've already quoted. It doesn't really get more complicated than "it's the law" in this case.


So, if I believed you, either you misrepresented what I had to say, or you need to fire your legal team.

However, since it is now after 10:00 pacific, and I only completed my argument about 30 minutes ago, either you live in a foreign country with foreign lawyers who are ill equipped to comment on US tax law, or you're absolutely full of shit.

I know what my money's on.

Hopefully on a hot dog to go with your fail. Your argument, sketchy and dodgy as it has been, hasn't become less ricockulous in the last 8 hours when you went in to reiteration mode.

I suggest you read my sources. They do shed light on why failing to pay the ACA tax doesn't lead to jail - namely because the statute says it can't. Did you read that portion of the statute yet?

Edit: bwahahaha. Impersonating a federal tax agent is illegal. Your "attorneys" don't even know what an enrolled agent is? Allow me to laugh harder.

They know the distinction between an IRS agent and a schmuck doing entry level tax prep at H&R Block with delusions of grandeur, yes.

Bwahahahaha.

Oh God I'm dying over here. You don't even know the difference between an enrolled agent an irs agent. And, apparently, neither do these 10:00 on a Friday working "attorneys".

Oh this is fantastic! Please keep talking. I haven't laughed this hard in a week.

[Alien Space Bats]

They know the distinction between an IRS agent and a schmuck doing entry level tax prep at H&R Block with delusions of grandeur, yes.

Todeslager ←——————— STILL does not know what an enrolled agent is.

[Noldoria]

I own my body, and the government should have _zero_ say in how I manage its care. Thus also I accept the consequences of all of the choices I make. If I choose to forgo health insurance I should not be penalized as this is my choice. However, I also should and do accept that I must forgo any health care that I can not or will not pay for.

A government should do only one thing - protect the rights of its citizens. Me forgoing health insurance and any health care I do not pay for out of my own pocket violates no one's rights. Thus this choice is simply none of the government's business.

I used to vote Democrat in every election because I agreed with their stance on environmental protection/responsibility, abortion rights, opposition to internet censorship, etc. However, lately it seems the Democratic party has become the enemy of personal freedoms and rights. As long as this is the case I will go with the lesser of two evils and vote Republican every time - until the Democratic party is able to return to promoting a government that protects our rights and freedoms, and nothing more.

[Galloism]

Uh... failing to pay regular income tax certainly can lead to garnishment of certain entitlements and retirement plans. Structure is important on the latter. Sometimes they can levy the plan, and sometimes only garnish distributions from the plan.

Huh, well then. Presumably, the ACA is not the same?

No. Congress wrote into the ACA that the IRS may not pursue any criminal charges, criminal penalties, or get liens or levies for failure to pay the ACA tax.

It's quoted a couple of pages ago.

[Alien Space Bats]

I own my body, and the government should have _zero_ say in how I manage its care. Thus also I accept the consequences of all of the choices I make. If I choose to forgo health insurance I should not be penalized as this is my choice. However, I also should and do accept that I must forgo any health care that I can not or will not pay for.

A government should do only one thing - protect the rights of its citizens. Me forgoing health insurance and any health care I do not pay for out of my own pocket violates no one's rights. Thus this choice is simply none of the government's business.

I used to vote Democrat in every election because I agreed with their stance on environmental protection/responsibility, abortion rights, opposition to internet censorship, etc. However, lately it seems the Democratic party has become the enemy of personal freedoms and rights. As long as this is the case I will go with the lesser of two evils and vote Republican every time - until the Democratic party is able to return to promoting a government that protects our rights and freedoms, and nothing more.

When was the last time you voted Democratic? 1888?

[Todeslager]

"...impersonating a federal tax agent is illegal"...

Todeslager ←——————— Does not know what an enrolled agent is.

Your capacity for self-humiliation appears to be nearly infinite.

I know what an enrolled agent is, and I know it is illegal to impersonate one. And I suspect our bumbling H&R Block file clerk Gally here isn't one.

How about some quid pro quo here? Stop being butthurt about being trounced when you come at me with your nonsense, brush up on critical thinking / logical discourse, and for God's sake, stop trying to clean toilets with an apple.

[Galloism]

Todeslager ←——————— Does not know what an enrolled agent is.

Your capacity for self-humiliation appears to be nearly infinite.

I know what an enrolled agent is, and I know it is illegal to impersonate one. And I suspect our bumbling H&R Block file clerk Gally here isn't one.

You know, I let the Turbotax comment slide, because it was arguable you weren't trying to insult me. Not likely, but arguable.

I let the H&R block comment slide because you didn't even know what an enrolled agent is.

Bumbling file clerk, however, I will not let slide.

Here is the ACA code.

In section 5000a(g)2 subsections a and b, which speaks about the shared responsibility payment, it states this:

‘‘(2) SPECIAL RULES.—Notwithstanding any other provision
of law—
‘‘(A) WAIVER OF CRIMINAL PENALTIES.—In the case of
any failure by a taxpayer to timely pay any penalty imposed
by this section, such taxpayer shall not be subject to any
criminal prosecution or penalty with respect to such failure.
‘‘(B) LIMITATIONS ON LIENS AND LEVIES.—The Secretary
shall not—
‘‘(i) file notice of lien with respect to any property
of a taxpayer by reason of any failure to pay the
penalty imposed by this section, or
‘‘(ii) levy on any such property with respect to
such failure.’’.

What does it say? Read it. What does it say regarding criminal penalties? What does it say regarding liens and levies? Read it.

[Alien Space Bats]

Stop being butthurt about being trounced...

You never trounced me. You just threw around a bunch of ad hominems and pretended that amounted to an argument.

Oh, and you STILL don't know what an enrolled agent is, because you continue to talk as though such people are either some kind of Federal law enforcement officer (with your absurd claim that it's illegal to impersonate one on an internet forum) or (alternately) merely anyone who claims to know how to prepare an income tax return.

People who don't know what they're talking about provide endless amusement for those of us who do.

[Todeslager]

They know the distinction between an IRS agent and a schmuck doing entry level tax prep at H&R Block with delusions of grandeur, yes.

Bwahahahaha.

Oh God I'm dying over here. You don't even know the difference between an enrolled agent an irs agent. And, apparently, neither do these 10:00 on a Friday working "attorneys".

Oh this is fantastic! Please keep talking. I haven't laughed this hard in a week.

As stated prior, I took your "argument" to legal around closing time, now nearly 7 hours ago, and it made them laugh their asses off. You've bobbed and weaved and dissembled for several hours after that, but your self-contradicting "argument" has remained essentially the same.

Are your bosses down at the strip mall H&R Block kiosk actually aware you can't do math?

[Galloism]

Bwahahahaha.

Oh God I'm dying over here. You don't even know the difference between an enrolled agent an irs agent. And, apparently, neither do these 10:00 on a Friday working "attorneys".

Oh this is fantastic! Please keep talking. I haven't laughed this hard in a week.

As stated prior, I took your "argument" to legal around closing time, now nearly 7 hours ago, and it made them laugh their asses off. You've bobbed and weaved and dissembled for several hours after that, but your self-contradicting "argument" has remained essentially the same.

Are your bosses down at the strip mall H&R Block kiosk actually aware you can't do math?

Quoting the law is bobbing and weaving? Try reading. It's what I do.

Also not sure what my mathematical ability has to do with it. Although I *do* make mathematical arguments from time to time, there were none in this thread. Just going for pointless ad hominem attacks now?

[Alien Space Bats]

Are your bosses down at the strip mall H&R Block kiosk actually aware you can't do math?

Ad hominems are kind of like seasoning: If they're all you've got, you clearly can't cook.

[Galloism]

Are your bosses down at the strip mall H&R Block kiosk actually aware you can't do math?

Ad hominems are kind of like seasoning: If they're all you've got, you clearly can't cook.

I mean, the thing is the law could not be plainer in this particular section. Some of the ACA surely is convoluted as shit, but when it says "notwithstanding any other provision of the law" "not subject to criminal prosecution or penalty" and "shall not file a notice of lien" and "shall not levy on any such property", congress made an overriding provision that these would not take place in regard to the ACA tax, and even included that if it conflicts with any other portion of the law, it's overridden for this purpose.

It's hard to argue against that - hence the ad hominems.

[Galloism]

Stop being butthurt about being trounced...

You never trounced me. You just threw around a bunch of ad hominems and pretended that amounted to an argument.

Oh, and you STILL don't know what an enrolled agent is, because you continue to talk as though such people are either some kind of Federal law enforcement officer (with your absurd claim that it's illegal to impersonate one on an internet forum) or (alternately) merely anyone who claims to know how to prepare an income tax return.

People who don't know what they're talking about provide endless amusement for those of us who do.

Incidentally, there can be penalties for impersonating an enrolled agent - if you impersonate yourself as one before the IRS when you are not actually an enrolled agent. The most important part of it, however, is that the false statements are made to the IRS.

Which is just silly, given they're the ones who maintain the list.

Interesting case on the subject.

[Todeslager]

As stated prior, I took your "argument" to legal around closing time, now nearly 7 hours ago, and it made them laugh their asses off. You've bobbed and weaved and dissembled for several hours after that, but your self-contradicting "argument" has remained essentially the same.

Are your bosses down at the strip mall H&R Block kiosk actually aware you can't do math?

Quoting the law is bobbing and weaving? Try reading. It's what I do.

Not very well, apparently. I had to break my argument down into See Dick reading level for you to concede that yes, evading tax penalties will land your ass in jail. Go back a few pages before your mom called down into the basement about the bong stank.

Also not sure what my mathematical ability has to do with it. Although I *do* make mathematical arguments from time to time, there were none in this thread. Just going for pointless ad hominem attacks now?

Perhaps your difficulty is with short term memory loss. You don't recall making essentially the same argument reiterated since around 3pm local time here, plenty of time for me to print it off and share a few laughs with the legal department across the hall from my office before closing time, and now think you've not been here all afternoon / evening recycling the same misinformed babble, and that you just completed your argument an hour ago, rather than it being a rehash of the last 9 hours you've camped out here. Drugs are bad, m'kay.

[Alien Space Bats]

Perhaps he thought they'd be too busy to notice?

[Alien Space Bats]

Go back a few pages before your mom called down into the basement about the bong stank.

Drugs are bad, m'kay.

Drugs may be bad, but accusing other NSG posters of using them is even worse.

Just say no.

[Galloism]

Quoting the law is bobbing and weaving? Try reading. It's what I do.

Not very well, apparently. I had to break my argument down into See Dick reading level for you to concede that yes, evading tax penalties will land your ass in jail. Go back a few pages before your mom called down into the basement about the bong stank.

Yes, but I never suggested evading them. I'm merely pointing out that refusing to pay the ACA shared responsibility tax results in no jail time, no liens, and no levies - because Congress said so.

I know what an enrolled agent is, and I know it is illegal to impersonate one. And I suspect our bumbling H&R Block file clerk Gally here isn't one.

You know, I let the Turbotax comment slide, because it was arguable you weren't trying to insult me. Not likely, but arguable.

I let the H&R block comment slide because you didn't even know what an enrolled agent is.

Bumbling file clerk, however, I will not let slide.

Here is the ACA code.

In section 5000a(g)2 subsections a and b, which speaks about the shared responsibility payment, it states this:

‘‘(2) SPECIAL RULES.—Notwithstanding any other provision
of law—
‘‘(A) WAIVER OF CRIMINAL PENALTIES.—In the case of
any failure by a taxpayer to timely pay any penalty imposed
by this section, such taxpayer shall not be subject to any
criminal prosecution or penalty with respect to such failure.
‘‘(B) LIMITATIONS ON LIENS AND LEVIES.—The Secretary
shall not—
‘‘(i) file notice of lien with respect to any property
of a taxpayer by reason of any failure to pay the
penalty imposed by this section, or
‘‘(ii) levy on any such property with respect to
such failure.’’.

What does it say? Read it. What does it say regarding criminal penalties? What does it say regarding liens and levies? Read it.

]Also not sure what my mathematical ability has to do with it. Although I *do* make mathematical arguments from time to time, there were none in this thread. Just going for pointless ad hominem attacks now?

Perhaps your difficulty is with short term memory loss. You don't recall making essentially the same argument reiterated since around 3pm local time here, plenty of time for me to print it off and share a few laughs with the legal department across the hall from my office before closing time, and now think you've not been here all afternoon / evening recycling the same misinformed babble, and that you just completed your argument an hour ago, rather than it being a rehash of the last 9 hours you've camped out here. Drugs are bad, m'kay.

Quoting the law is misinformed babble?

Better call Congress and tell them they're babbling again.

What does the law say the IRS will do if you refuse to pay the shared responsibility payment?

[Kelinfort]

Quoting the law is bobbing and weaving? Try reading. It's what I do.

Not very well, apparently. I had to break my argument down into See Dick reading level for you to concede that yes, evading tax penalties will land your ass in jail. Go back a few pages before your mom called down into the basement about the bong stank.

Also not sure what my mathematical ability has to do with it. Although I *do* make mathematical arguments from time to time, there were none in this thread. Just going for pointless ad hominem attacks now?

Perhaps your difficulty is with short term memory loss. You don't recall making essentially the same argument reiterated since around 3pm local time here, plenty of time for me to print it off and share a few laughs with the legal department across the hall from my office before closing time, and now think you've not been here all afternoon / evening recycling the same misinformed babble, and that you just completed your argument an hour ago, rather than it being a rehash of the last 9 hours you've camped out here. Drugs are bad, m'kay.

But ACA penalties will not result in wage garnishment, entitlement garnishment, or jail time.

See, I've yet to see how, even if ACA penalties could result in jail time, that the ACA is unconstitutional as a result.

[Galloism]

Go back a few pages before your mom called down into the basement about the bong stank.

Drugs are bad, m'kay.

Drugs may be bad, but accusing other NSG posters of using them is even worse.

Just say no.

You know - wine would help.

[Todeslager]

Stop being butthurt about being trounced...

You never trounced me. You just threw around a bunch of ad hominems and pretended that amounted to an argument.

As if your "I don't give a damn if your job deals with health care coverage" screeches required more than a head pat and a chiding not to play in traffic.

Oh, and you STILL don't know what an enrolled agent is, because you continue to talk as though such people are either some kind of Federal law enforcement officer (with your absurd claim that it's illegal to impersonate one on an internet forum) or (alternately) merely anyone who claims to know how to prepare an income tax return.

Let's try not to draw too much attention to your rampart efforts to snuff out any sense that you might possess reading comprehension skills, and simply note that I was paraphrasing a member of my employer's legal department who wasn't impressed, at all, with Gally's failed attempt to pretend he can speak with authority on tax-related health care coverage issues and the consequences of non-compliance with the ACA. I trust them, given their role in navigating a billion-dollar corp through tax law, more than I do a one-note chump camped out in mommy's basement all day. Color me not effin' retarded.

People who don't know what they're talking about provide endless amusement for those of us who do.

And you have, I'm sure.

[Galloism]

You never trounced me. You just threw around a bunch of ad hominems and pretended that amounted to an argument.

As if your "I don't give a damn if your job deals with health care coverage" screeches required more than a head pat and a chiding not to play in traffic.

Oh, and you STILL don't know what an enrolled agent is, because you continue to talk as though such people are either some kind of Federal law enforcement officer (with your absurd claim that it's illegal to impersonate one on an internet forum) or (alternately) merely anyone who claims to know how to prepare an income tax return.

Let's try not to draw too much attention to your rampart efforts to snuff out any sense that you might possess reading comprehension skills, and simply note that I was paraphrasing a member of my employer's legal department who wasn't impressed, at all, with Gally's failed attempt to pretend he can speak with authority on tax-related health care coverage issues and the consequences of non-compliance with the ACA. I trust them, given their role in navigating a billion-dollar corp through tax law, more than I do a one-note chump camped out in mommy's basement all day. Color me not effin' retarded.

Actually, I wouldn't trust corporate attorneys to know much about the individual mandate. It's not their field.

Now, if it were tax attorneys, or perhaps attorneys that work closely with individual Americans living abroad, or something like that, that would be one thing (they'd still be wrong, or you seriously misrepresented my argument, or they don't exist), but corporate attorneys are primarily concerned with corporate issues. Thus, when you say "mandate", their first thought would be "employer mandate" which has all manner of extra teeth in it not in the individual mandate.

Have you read the law yet? Read for yourself. If you simply refuse to pay the shared responsibility payment, but do not commit fraud in the process, what will the IRS be able to do?

Read.

I know what an enrolled agent is, and I know it is illegal to impersonate one. And I suspect our bumbling H&R Block file clerk Gally here isn't one.

You know, I let the Turbotax comment slide, because it was arguable you weren't trying to insult me. Not likely, but arguable.

I let the H&R block comment slide because you didn't even know what an enrolled agent is.

Bumbling file clerk, however, I will not let slide.

Here is the ACA code.

In section 5000a(g)2 subsections a and b, which speaks about the shared responsibility payment, it states this:

‘‘(2) SPECIAL RULES.—Notwithstanding any other provision
of law—
‘‘(A) WAIVER OF CRIMINAL PENALTIES.—In the case of
any failure by a taxpayer to timely pay any penalty imposed
by this section, such taxpayer shall not be subject to any
criminal prosecution or penalty with respect to such failure.
‘‘(B) LIMITATIONS ON LIENS AND LEVIES.—The Secretary
shall not—
‘‘(i) file notice of lien with respect to any property
of a taxpayer by reason of any failure to pay the
penalty imposed by this section, or
‘‘(ii) levy on any such property with respect to
such failure.’’.

What does it say? Read it. What does it say regarding criminal penalties? What does it say regarding liens and levies? Read it.