Caitlyn Jenner: The Reveal & The Reactions

[Prussia-Steinbach]

"op·pres·sion
əˈpreSHən
noun
prolonged cruel or unjust treatment or control."

Sounds appropriate to me.

"Authoritian or violent treatment, suspension of civil rights"- Oxford New English.

Hmm,

Basic human rights, check
Right to vote, check
Right of marriage, check
Right to own property, check
Incidences of racism, hmm there are a few.

Guess the whole thing falls apart there.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/oppression

"unjust or cruel exercise of authority or power"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/oppression

"the exercise of authority or power in a burdensome, cruel, or unjust manner."

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dict ... oppression

"a situation in which people are governed in an unfair and cruel way and prevented from having opportunities and freedom"

I win.

[Killdash]

Lovely article, which of course fails to mention the killing of unarmed white youths, as well as the many instances of gang killings of both colours. Personally, I feel that all of these are tragedies. But I think calling it systemic racism is incorrect. Of the killings, many have to do with individuals, and not the whole force, as well as uncłear circumstances in a few.

Per capita, how many unarmed white kids are killed in comparison to black kids?

I'll answer with a question.

Per capita, how many coloured youths are involved in violent crime?

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Per capita, how many unarmed white kids are killed in comparison to black kids?

I'll answer with a question.

Per capita, how many coloured youths are involved in violent crime?

Per capita, how racist can an NS poster be before people start disregarding his bullshit prejudiced opinions?

[Geanna]

Not to be the shrewd here - but Pruss, and Kildash...

How the hell did this become a discussion about racism?

Eyes the thread title - since well the OP is... crap and we shan't look at that

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Not to be the shrewd here - but Pruss, and Kildash...

How the hell did this become a discussion about racism?

Eyes the thread title - since well the OP is... crap and we shan't look at that

You're right. And I'm not sure. Back on topic it is.

I tend to get angry when people start giving off racially prejudiced vibes, ya know.

[Killdash]

Lovely article, which of course fails to mention the killing of unarmed white youths, as well as the many instances of gang killings of both colours. Personally, I feel that all of these are tragedies. But I think calling it systemic racism is incorrect. Of the killings, many have to do with individuals, and not the whole force, as well as uncłear circumstances in a few.

Blacks are disproportionately pulled over, disproportionately killed, disproportionately arrested.

In the past months with the Baltimore riots and whatnot, many of us have grown quite educated on the subject, and could probably drown you in sources essentially proving a dangerous bias against blacks present in the modern American police force.

You trivialize their struggle against oppression and acting like it isn't a "big deal" is really, really, really fucking insulting.

You know, living in a country where up until recently we had real oppression, gives you a real perspective on just how good people in the First World have it.

You comparing struggles against things in America to actual oppression demeans the entire fight for rights in South Africa

[Killdash]

Not to be the shrewd here - but Pruss, and Kildash...

How the hell did this become a discussion about racism?

Eyes the thread title - since well the OP is... crap and we shan't look at that

You're right. And I'm not sure. Back on topic it is.

I tend to get angry when people start giving off racially prejudiced vibes, ya know.

You're right. Let's get back on track.

I tend to get upset myself when person professing a view of equality throw insults and refuse to back their points up. Besides, when people have to stoop to name calling, especially inflammatory ones, it becomes pointless.

[Geanna]

Not to be the shrewd here - but Pruss, and Kildash...

How the hell did this become a discussion about racism?

Eyes the thread title - since well the OP is... crap and we shan't look at that

You're right. And I'm not sure. Back on topic it is.

I tend to get angry when people start giving off racially prejudiced vibes, ya know.

I can see that - just thought I'd give you both a nudge before a Mod comes through here

[Llamalandia]

Not always. I mean, when the person you're speaking with has a tendency to fall back on "Well, that's my opinion" when confronted by numerous facts contrary to said opinion, and usually (though, admittedly, not always) tends to wilfully ignore these facts in order to continue to have the same factually incorrect views rather than go through the effort of changing his or her perspective, then further speech becomes an exercise in futility. Matthew 7:6, you know?

EDIT: Also, as far as your first sentence goes, check my signature. You're the one who inspired me to put it there.

Yeah, the idea that all opinions are equally valid is a terrible and terribly common misconception.

Not necessarily equal, but given an issue I consider unsettled, then yeah, I am largely going to listen to all opinions and voice my own.

And as to my being the inspiration of your sig, well, I suppose I can't argue with that, seems, like a bit of a cheap shot on your part, but meh whatever. You are entitled to say whatever you want more or less on this site.

In this case however, I wouldn't say I am uninformed, I just actively disagree with the purported "consensus" opinion on pronoun use. I mean, provided that isn't a violation of any forum rules (I feel like this was discussed a while back but no rules were actually made).

But I mean, consider this, if we rewrite history such that we now say, something like "Caitlin Jenner and Kris Kardashian, were married on such and such a date and raised kids together...." Well, people are who don't know anything about the backstory of caitlin and Kris Jenner may assume from the name and pronoun use that they were a married lesbian couple. I mean, not hard to dispel, but still, I'm not usually a huge fan of rewriting history.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Yeah, the idea that all opinions are equally valid is a terrible and terribly common misconception.

Not necessarily equal, but given an issue I consider unsettled, then yeah, I am largely going to listen to all opinions and voice my own.

And as to my being the inspiration of your sig, well, I suppose I can't argue with that, seems, like a bit of a cheap shot on your part, but meh whatever. You are entitled to say whatever you want more or less on this site.

In this case however, I wouldn't say I am uninformed, I just actively disagree with the purported "consensus" opinion on pronoun use. I mean, provided that isn't a violation of any forum rules (I feel like this was discussed a while back but no rules were actually made).

But I mean, consider this, if we rewrite history such that we now say, something like "Caitlin Jenner and Kris Kardashian, were married on such and such a date and raised kids together...." Well, people are who don't know anything about the backstory of caitlin and Kris Jenner may assume from the name and pronoun use that they were a married lesbian couple. I mean, not hard to dispel, but still, I'm not usually a huge fan of rewriting history.

It's not re-writing fucking history. She has always been that gender. Always. She has always been of the female gender. She was born of the male sex, however. That can be noted in future historical writings, though I question why the Kardashians would be included in that.

Making something simpler to understand is nothing fucking close to a reason for transphobia and bigotry.

And as has been said, an opinion backed up with nothing but bullshit isn't a good or valid opinion. Your opinions seem to frequently fall under this category.

[Geanna]

Not necessarily equal, but given an issue I consider unsettled, then yeah, I am largely going to listen to all opinions and voice my own.

And as to my being the inspiration of your sig, well, I suppose I can't argue with that, seems, like a bit of a cheap shot on your part, but meh whatever. You are entitled to say whatever you want more or less on this site.

In this case however, I wouldn't say I am uninformed, I just actively disagree with the purported "consensus" opinion on pronoun use. I mean, provided that isn't a violation of any forum rules (I feel like this was discussed a while back but no rules were actually made).

But I mean, consider this, if we rewrite history such that we now say, something like "Caitlin Jenner and Kris Kardashian, were married on such and such a date and raised kids together...." Well, people are who don't know anything about the backstory of caitlin and Kris Jenner may assume from the name and pronoun use that they were a married lesbian couple. I mean, not hard to dispel, but still, I'm not usually a huge fan of rewriting history.

It's not re-writing fucking history. She has always been that gender. Always. She has always been of the female gender. She was born of the male sex, however. That can be noted in future historical writings, though I question why the Kardashians would be included in that.

Making something simpler to understand is nothing fucking close to a reason for transphobia and bigotry.

Which - it isn't really that hard to understand to begin with. The psychology isn't difficult - the biology isn't too difficult; At this point, what's left is subjective bias.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Yeah, the idea that all opinions are equally valid is a terrible and terribly common misconception.

Not necessarily equal, but given an issue I consider unsettled, then yeah, I am largely going to listen to all opinions and voice my own.

And as to my being the inspiration of your sig, well, I suppose I can't argue with that, seems, like a bit of a cheap shot on your part, but meh whatever. You are entitled to say whatever you want more or less on this site.

In this case however, I wouldn't say I am uninformed, I just actively disagree with the purported "consensus" opinion on pronoun use. I mean, provided that isn't a violation of any forum rules (I feel like this was discussed a while back but no rules were actually made).

But I mean, consider this, if we rewrite history such that we now say, something like "Caitlin Jenner and Kris Kardashian, were married on such and such a date and raised kids together...." Well, people are who don't know anything about the backstory of caitlin and Kris Jenner may assume from the name and pronoun use that they were a married lesbian couple. I mean, not hard to dispel, but still, I'm not usually a huge fan of rewriting history.

It really wouldn't make sense, and this is talking as someone who has written history papers before, to call her a "he" and then a "she". It is more accurate, and appropriate, to call her a she throughout the narrative. Or, if you are uncomfortable with using the pronoun "she", you can always use "Bruce" to write the story up to where she decided to come out in the open about her transgenderism.

[Geanna]

IOC responded to that petition by the way

''In its response to the petition, IOC Communications Director Mark Adams tells Yahoo, "Bruce Jenner won his gold medal in the 1976 Olympic Games and there is no issue for the IOC."[SIC]

The IOC has had difficulty in the past defining the difference between men and women as it pertains to athletic competition. While it's rare, several athletes — mostly women — have been found to have genetic anomalies which place them somewhere in between traditional labels of "male" and "female." In 2012, the IOC announced it would allow transgender athletes to compete against their chosen peers, assuming they meet three criteria: the athlete must have had gender reassignment surgery, the athlete must have legal recognition of his or her assigned gender in his or her home country, and the athlete must have completed at least two years of hormone therapy.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

IOC responded to that petition by the way

''In its response to the petition, IOC Communications Director Mark Adams tells Yahoo, "Bruce Jenner won his gold medal in the 1976 Olympic Games and there is no issue for the IOC."[SIC]

The IOC has had difficulty in the past defining the difference between men and women as it pertains to athletic competition. While it's rare, several athletes — mostly women — have been found to have genetic anomalies which place them somewhere in between traditional labels of "male" and "female." In 2012, the IOC announced it would allow transgender athletes to compete against their chosen peers, assuming they meet three criteria: the athlete must have had gender reassignment surgery, the athlete must have legal recognition of his or her assigned gender in his or her home country, and the athlete must have completed at least two years of hormone therapy.

Good on them.

It'd be a petty reason to remove a medal, at any rate.

[Geanna]

IOC responded to that petition by the way

Good on them.

It'd be a petty reason to remove a medal, at any rate.

Indeed - nothing more than an attempted jab at her.

[Lakimina]

The psychology isn't difficult - the biology isn't too difficult; At this point, what's left is subjective bias.

Not exactly.

[Ashkera]

The only thing I have against the Caitlyn Jenner thing is that it's apparently related to the Kardashians, and I deliberately avoid thinking about the Kardashians in general.

Other than that, if that's what one needs to do to be mentally healthy, then that's what one needs to do. Nothing immoral about that.

[Replevion]

BTW for those that haven't seen it, Jon Stewart had some especially insightful commentary on the culture response to Caitlyn.

[Geanna]

The only thing I have against the Caitlyn Jenner thing is that it's apparently related to the Kardashians, and I deliberately avoid thinking about the Kardashians in general.

Agreed - I have quite the distaste for the Kardashians as well. Then again, you can have a more invigorating conversation with a doorknob than someone from that family; however since it's become a big issue I don't mind discussing Caitlyn - I'll concede to that.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

The only thing I have against the Caitlyn Jenner thing is that it's apparently related to the Kardashians, and I deliberately avoid thinking about the Kardashians in general.

Agreed - I have quite the distaste for the Kardashians as well. Then again, you can have a more invigorating conversation with a doorknob than someone from that family; however since it's become a big issue I don't mind discussing Caitlyn - I'll concede to that.

I'd say it's also good that the Kardashians, as major celebrities, have all been quite accepting and encouraging of her as well.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

The only thing I have against the Caitlyn Jenner thing is that it's apparently related to the Kardashians, and I deliberately avoid thinking about the Kardashians in general.

Agreed - I have quite the distaste for the Kardashians as well. Then again, you can have a more invigorating conversation with a doorknob than someone from that family; however since it's become a big issue I don't mind discussing Caitlyn - I'll concede to that.

Is it bad if I see her transformation something that should be seen as normal nowadays and that, while I was happy she is happy with herself, I am also like "eh, it's her choice, who cares?" when I see people bashing her?

[Atlanticatia]

The only thing I have against the Caitlyn Jenner thing is that it's apparently related to the Kardashians, and I deliberately avoid thinking about the Kardashians in general.

Agreed - I have quite the distaste for the Kardashians as well. Then again, you can have a more invigorating conversation with a doorknob than someone from that family; however since it's become a big issue I don't mind discussing Caitlyn - I'll concede to that.

In some ways I think it being associated with the Kardashians has raised everyday Americans' knowledge of trans issues - and what being trans is - which is a good thing. Especially with the outpouring of support and acceptance from pretty much the whole family. There are probably millions of Americans who watch Keeping Up who didn't understand or know these issues, and now they do and are probably supportive.

[Lakimina]

Agreed - I have quite the distaste for the Kardashians as well. Then again, you can have a more invigorating conversation with a doorknob than someone from that family; however since it's become a big issue I don't mind discussing Caitlyn - I'll concede to that.

Is it bad if I see her transformation something that should be seen as normal nowadays and that, while I was happy she is happy with herself, I am also like "eh, it's her choice, who cares?" when I see people bashing her?

That's something for you to decide.

[Replevion]

Agreed - I have quite the distaste for the Kardashians as well. Then again, you can have a more invigorating conversation with a doorknob than someone from that family; however since it's become a big issue I don't mind discussing Caitlyn - I'll concede to that.

Is it bad if I see her transformation something that should be seen as normal nowadays and that, while I was happy she is happy with herself, I am also like "eh, it's her choice, who cares?" when I see people bashing her?

Indeed, transition should be seen as normal. I can't wait until there's no need for closets and comings out, but we're not there yet.

Because Caitlyn Jenner is one of the first people in the US who was famous before transition the event is particularly catalyzing a cultural response heretofore unseen. This is the beginning of a socio-cultural sea change similar to when there was a rash of Hollywood celebs coming out as gay or lesbian, which I don't think was uncoincidentally predicate to the change in social and legal attitudes towards gay and lesbian people in regular society.

Caitlyn is, by fate and coincidence, a figurehead now. We'll all get over it, but as much progress needs to be milked from the socio-cultural discussion as possible. This is, mediocre or not, the watershed 'teachable moment' for trans people to be seen by cis society and understood. Hopefully.

[The Beast of Boston]

I...er...ah like this Snoop Dogg fella.