Caitlyn Jenner: The Reveal & The Reactions

[Grenartia]

A very stimulating, and informative answer. Thank you.

I will be honest and say that I'm not nearly as well versed or as well disciplined as Archregimancy in subjects pertaining to all things archaeology, but I certainly have studied the subject of gender archaeology to a significant degree for various reasons. I'm particularly bad with sourcing at times, as I don't have the capacity to drum up resources on a whim nearly to the same extent as him. And I'm by no means the last word on the subject (As much as there is one in the field of archaeology; a common idiom is that if you get ten archaeologists in a room to discuss a topic, you will come out with eleven different opinions). Just relating what I have studied in the past in a broad sense, as I have been out of academia and in the private sector for a couple years. I most certainly could bring up more specifics if I were at home, but I'm currently off on a project and don't have my bookshelf to delve into for more specific information at the moment.

I can only imagine you as trying to be the next Indiana Jones.

"X never marks the spot"

"Holy shit, look at this giant X, marking the spot!"

[Llamalandia]

No offense but that actually seems kinda passionate and pointed an assessment, for a post on that you are merely making an observation of and give not a fuck about.

I don't give a fuck about whether someone is a traitor or not.

I get the feeling you're the kind of person that is good at covert shit-talking in real life, until someone picks up on it and beats your ass.

Oh shit now I get it. You are saying you didn't give a fuck about whether or not someone was a traitor. I genuinely thought you meant you didn't give a fuck about the amount of attention or lack thereof that Manning got in the press. My bad.

[Llamalandia]

I will be honest and say that I'm not nearly as well versed or as well disciplined as Archregimancy in subjects pertaining to all things archaeology, but I certainly have studied the subject of gender archaeology to a significant degree for various reasons. I'm particularly bad with sourcing at times, as I don't have the capacity to drum up resources on a whim nearly to the same extent as him. And I'm by no means the last word on the subject (As much as there is one in the field of archaeology; a common idiom is that if you get ten archaeologists in a room to discuss a topic, you will come out with eleven different opinions). Just relating what I have studied in the past in a broad sense, as I have been out of academia and in the private sector for a couple years. I most certainly could bring up more specifics if I were at home, but I'm currently off on a project and don't have my bookshelf to delve into for more specific information at the moment.

I can only imagine you as trying to be the next Indiana Jones.

"X never marks the spot"

"Holy shit, look at this giant X, marking the spot!"

I'm not that dedicated, on the flip side, I don't have as strong an aversion to them as Indy though.

[Seangoli]

I will be honest and say that I'm not nearly as well versed or as well disciplined as Archregimancy in subjects pertaining to all things archaeology, but I certainly have studied the subject of gender archaeology to a significant degree for various reasons. I'm particularly bad with sourcing at times, as I don't have the capacity to drum up resources on a whim nearly to the same extent as him. And I'm by no means the last word on the subject (As much as there is one in the field of archaeology; a common idiom is that if you get ten archaeologists in a room to discuss a topic, you will come out with eleven different opinions). Just relating what I have studied in the past in a broad sense, as I have been out of academia and in the private sector for a couple years. I most certainly could bring up more specifics if I were at home, but I'm currently off on a project and don't have my bookshelf to delve into for more specific information at the moment.

I can only imagine you as trying to be the next Indiana Jones.

"X never marks the spot"

"Holy shit, look at this giant X, marking the spot!"

X never marks the spot, unless it does.

Good old fashioned, completely useless archaeological wisdom.

Que Indiana Jones music as I spend the next mind-numbing ten hours recording it and submitting it to the SHPO.

Yeah... I wouldn't make a very interesting Indy. I've only punched something like five Nazis. Way below quota.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

I can only imagine you as trying to be the next Indiana Jones.

"X never marks the spot"

"Holy shit, look at this giant X, marking the spot!"

X never marks the spot, unless it does.

Good old fashioned, completely useless archaeological wisdom.

Que Indiana Jones music as I spend the next mind-numbing ten hours recording it and submitting it to the SHPO.

Yeah... I wouldn't make a very interesting Indy. I've only punched something like five Nazis. Way below quota.

Tell me you're at least highly promiscuous and have a cool leather hat.

[Llamalandia]

X never marks the spot, unless it does.

Good old fashioned, completely useless archaeological wisdom.

Que Indiana Jones music as I spend the next mind-numbing ten hours recording it and submitting it to the SHPO.

Yeah... I wouldn't make a very interesting Indy. I've only punched something like five Nazis. Way below quota.

Tell me you're at least highly promiscuous and have a cool leather hat.

Man now would be the perfect time to lie and say, yes. Alas, Idon't even have a bull whip.

[The New Sea Territory]

I'm supportive of Caitlyn Jenner.

Sadly, her new identity is, at least in a public sense, becoming nothing more than an excuse for bigots to crawl out of the woodwork.

[Llamalandia]

I'm supportive of Caitlyn Jenner.

Sadly, her new identity is, at least in a public sense, becoming nothing more than an excuse for bigots to crawl out of the woodwork.

No the excuse is the fact that she when she was a he wa a part of the kardashian circus. I mean, I call jenner a freak not because he is trans, but because he was a part of that family (and a part of it by choice not birth no less). Plus apparently he was a total douchebag of dead beat dad to his first set of kids. Like skipped high school graduations didn't come to or even acknowledge birthdays etc. Apparently they have more or less accepted and forgiven her now that she is a her and has left the kardassian clan kinda.
Seriously though, maybe not do a reality show when you are a trans icon. I mean, really? I just think eh, that isn't the best light if you want trans people to be accepted as just normal everyday folks likeeveryone else

[Anywhere Else But Here]

I'm supportive of Caitlyn Jenner.

Sadly, her new identity is, at least in a public sense, becoming nothing more than an excuse for bigots to crawl out of the woodwork.

No the excuse is the fact that she when she was a he wa a part of the kardashian circus. I mean, I call jenner a freak not because he is trans, but because he was a part of that family (and a part of it by choice not birth no less). Plus apparently he was a total douchebag of dead beat dad to his first set of kids. Like skipped high school graduations didn't come to or even acknowledge birthdays etc. Apparently they have more or less accepted and forgiven her now that she is a her and has left the kardassian clan kinda.
Seriously though, maybe not do a reality show when you are a trans icon. I mean, really? I just think eh, that isn't the best light if you want trans people to be accepted as just normal everyday folks likeeveryone else

Are you incredibly dense or just being deliberately transphobic? You've spent the last few pages referring to trans women as "he" and "him". You know full well that that's insulting, so why do you keep doing it?

[Llamalandia]

No the excuse is the fact that she when she was a he wa a part of the kardashian circus. I mean, I call jenner a freak not because he is trans, but because he was a part of that family (and a part of it by choice not birth no less). Plus apparently he was a total douchebag of dead beat dad to his first set of kids. Like skipped high school graduations didn't come to or even acknowledge birthdays etc. Apparently they have more or less accepted and forgiven her now that she is a her and has left the kardassian clan kinda.
Seriously though, maybe not do a reality show when you are a trans icon. I mean, really? I just think eh, that isn't the best light if you want trans people to be accepted as just normal everyday folks likeeveryone else

Are you incredibly dense or just being deliberately transphobic? You've spent the last few pages referring to trans women as "he" and "him". You know full well that that's insulting, so why do you keep doing it?

Well no but I'm largely either referring to what he was ie, preop or at the very least predisclosure bruce was and self identified to the world as male gendered hence I use him. Now that he has transitioned to caitlynn I will use she or her. It isn't meant to be insulting but it is meant to be historically accurate. That said, if I inadvertantly mixed up the pronouns no offense was necessarily intended.
That said, for Manning well screw the dumbass litle kinda traitor kinda hero. I will call him chelsea when he serves his sentence for being a shitty soldier and a dumbass. Until then, I don't really care if I insult him. Apologies for any collateral insult though.

[Anywhere Else But Here]

Are you incredibly dense or just being deliberately transphobic? You've spent the last few pages referring to trans women as "he" and "him". You know full well that that's insulting, so why do you keep doing it?

Well no but I'm largely either referring to what he was ie, preop or at the very least predisclosure bruce was and self identified to the world as male gendered hence I use him. Now that he has transitioned to caitlynn I will use she or her. It isn't meant to be insulting but it is meant to be historically accurate. That said, if I inadvertantly mixed up the pronouns no offense was necessarily intended.
That said, for Manning well screw the dumbass litle kinda traitor kinda hero. I will call him chelsea when he serves his sentence for being a shitty soldier and a dumbass. Until then, I don't really care if I insult him. Apologies for any collateral insult though.

I'll put you down as "deliberately transphobic" then.

It is considered polite to always refer to trans people by the gender they currently identify as, both in the past and present tense.

[Llamalandia]

Well no but I'm largely either referring to what he was ie, preop or at the very least predisclosure bruce was and self identified to the world as male gendered hence I use him. Now that he has transitioned to caitlynn I will use she or her. It isn't meant to be insulting but it is meant to be historically accurate. That said, if I inadvertantly mixed up the pronouns no offense was necessarily intended.
That said, for Manning well screw the dumbass litle kinda traitor kinda hero. I will call him chelsea when he serves his sentence for being a shitty soldier and a dumbass. Until then, I don't really care if I insult him. Apologies for any collateral insult though.

I'll put you down as "deliberately transphobic" then.

It is considered polite to always refer to trans people by the gender they currently identify as, both in the past and present tense.

Ok, well I'd rather be transphobic, than historically inaccurate. But like I said, no intention behind it. THough frankly I've never seen what the big deal is to begin with. Yeah, ok sucks for you people mix up pronouns, get over it, it isn't equivalent to say the N wrod, or even bitch, plus no offense, but given the fact that transgender people make up an exceedingly small minority, this "special snowflake" hypersensitivity to gender pronouns is kinda annoying anyway. Hell cisgender people are occasionally misgendered in everyday society, they usualy don't get so bent out of shape about it.

[Anywhere Else But Here]

I'll put you down as "deliberately transphobic" then.

It is considered polite to always refer to trans people by the gender they currently identify as, both in the past and present tense.

1. Ok, well I'd rather be transphobic, than historically inaccurate. 2. But like I said, no intention behind it. 3. THough frankly I've never seen what the big deal is to begin with. Yeah, ok sucks for you people mix up pronouns, get over it, 4. it isn't equivalent to say the N wrod, or even bitch, plus no offense, but given the fact that transgender people make up an 5. exceedingly small minority, this "special snowflake" hypersensitivity to gender pronouns is kinda annoying anyway. 6.Hell cisgender people are occasionally misgendered in everyday society, they usualy don't get so bent out of shape about it.

1. False dichotomy, you could say "Jenner" or "they" if the thought of being polite and respectful irks you so much.

2. If you didn't intend to cause offense, stop saying things that you've been told are offensive.

3. Just because you don't understand why saying certain things upsets people doesn't give you an excuse to keep saying those things. We are not talking about people mixing up pronouns, you and others deliberately use the wrong ones. Courtesy is very easy, and it wouldn't hurt you to show some.

4. That's not really up to you, is it? If I am as hurt by someone calling me "he" asmuch as a black person is by use of the N word, then both are hurtful and the person saying that should, for the sake of decency if nothing else, stop.

5. Fuck the minorities, eh? I also can't stand those fucking wheelchair users, asking for special treatment like ramps and lifts. Plus, they're all hypersensitive about not being called "freaks" and "crips". Sure, I could just stop calling them that, but then I might not upset anyone and might instead have a reasonable and respectful discussion, and where's the fun in that?

6. Someone getting accidentally misgendered, whether trans or cis is a harmless mistake. What you do is malicious.

[Troll Instructor]

Hilary Swank should star in a movie about the life of Bruce / Caitlyn Jenner.

[Llamalandia]

1. Ok, well I'd rather be transphobic, than historically inaccurate. 2. But like I said, no intention behind it. 3. THough frankly I've never seen what the big deal is to begin with. Yeah, ok sucks for you people mix up pronouns, get over it, 4. it isn't equivalent to say the N wrod, or even bitch, plus no offense, but given the fact that transgender people make up an 5. exceedingly small minority, this "special snowflake" hypersensitivity to gender pronouns is kinda annoying anyway. 6.Hell cisgender people are occasionally misgendered in everyday society, they usualy don't get so bent out of shape about it.

1. False dichotomy, you could say "Jenner" or "they" if the thought of being polite and respectful irks you so much.

2. If you didn't intend to cause offense, stop saying things that you've been told are offensive.

3. Just because you don't understand why saying certain things upsets people doesn't give you an excuse to keep saying those things. We are not talking about people mixing up pronouns, you and others deliberately use the wrong ones. Courtesy is very easy, and it wouldn't hurt you to show some.

4. That's not really up to you, is it? If I am as hurt by someone calling me "he" asmuch as a black person is by use of the N word, then both are hurtful and the person saying that should, for the sake of decency if nothing else, stop.

5. Fuck the minorities, eh? I also can't stand those fucking wheelchair users, asking for special treatment like ramps and lifts. Plus, they're all hypersensitive about not being called "freaks" and "crips". Sure, I could just stop calling them that, but then I might not upset anyone and might instead have a reasonable and respectful discussion, and where's the fun in that?

6. Someone getting accidentally misgendered, whether trans or cis is a harmless mistake. What you do is malicious.

Ah, ok, here is the difference I don't subscribe to the notion that offensive is in the eye of the beholder so to speak. I mean, hell you may be offend I wear a blue shirt. So what, screw you, I don't care you choose to be offended. Likewise transgender people choose to be offended when misgendered, that doesn't change the fact that it was my intent.

As, to six like I said, I subscribe to historical accuracy over preserving the feelings of a small minority of people, who at the end of the day, chose to express their true gender identity. If I really wanted to be offensive however, I would just refer to all transgender personas by their assigned sex at birth regardless of where in trasnition they were. But Idon't want to be merely offensive for the sake of beign offensive. I don't mind being offensive for the sake of precision and accuracy however.

I mean, besides, should I refer to jenner as a dead beat mom now? THat doesn't really make much sense no does that carry the same culture connotation which dead beat dad does, and which Bruce Genner was.

[Anywhere Else But Here]

1. False dichotomy, you could say "Jenner" or "they" if the thought of being polite and respectful irks you so much.

2. If you didn't intend to cause offense, stop saying things that you've been told are offensive.

3. Just because you don't understand why saying certain things upsets people doesn't give you an excuse to keep saying those things. We are not talking about people mixing up pronouns, you and others deliberately use the wrong ones. Courtesy is very easy, and it wouldn't hurt you to show some.

4. That's not really up to you, is it? If I am as hurt by someone calling me "he" asmuch as a black person is by use of the N word, then both are hurtful and the person saying that should, for the sake of decency if nothing else, stop.

5. Fuck the minorities, eh? I also can't stand those fucking wheelchair users, asking for special treatment like ramps and lifts. Plus, they're all hypersensitive about not being called "freaks" and "crips". Sure, I could just stop calling them that, but then I might not upset anyone and might instead have a reasonable and respectful discussion, and where's the fun in that?

6. Someone getting accidentally misgendered, whether trans or cis is a harmless mistake. What you do is malicious.

Ah, ok, here is the difference I don't subscribe to the notion that offensive is in the eye of the beholder so to speak. I mean, hell you may be offend I wear a blue shirt. So what, screw you, I don't care you choose to be offended. Likewise transgender people choose to be offended when misgendered, that doesn't change the fact that it was my intent.

As, to six like I said, I subscribe to historical accuracy over preserving the feelings of a small minority of people, who at the end of the day, chose to express their true gender identity. If I really wanted to be offensive however, I would just refer to all transgender personas by their assigned sex at birth regardless of where in trasnition they were. But Idon't want to be merely offensive for the sake of beign offensive. I don't mind being offensive for the sake of precision and accuracy however.

I mean, besides, should I refer to jenner as a dead beat mom now? THat doesn't really make much sense no does that carry the same culture connotation which dead beat dad does, and which Bruce Genner was.

I thought I made some points, but apparently not, because they've all been ignored.

[Dalcaria]

Since this is about reactions...

When I first heard it was Bruce Jenner. "PHEW! I was terrified they meant Bruce Campbell! I couldn't live without that chin in this world!"

My reaction now. "Meh." Honestly, I think the whole thing has been a waste of paper product to talk about. The man (or woman if that is what Jenner wishes to go by) can do whatever it is they want to their body, as long as it doesn't affect me.

I'm probably not going to call Bruce/Caitlyn anything, because this is a person who is in no way directly important in my life. I don't find them particularly inspiring for any reason, nor do I see a need to kick up a fuss over what they did to their own body. Let this person do what they choose to do, and let me do what I choose to do. I'm sure we'll get along just fine never having to meet or deal with each other.

[Bezkoshtovnya]

Hilary Swank should star in a movie about the life of Bruce / Caitlyn Jenner.

Err...interesting concept.

[Killdash]

I'm not going to make rocket science here and keep things simple. No matter how I would say this there would be someone who says that it's still not right.

Its not rocket science to simply say that the difference between men and women is gender identity.

Actually, as a bio-medical engineer specialising in the brain, I can most definitely tell you that gender is also a programmed state in the brain. Females do react differently to males under neural stimuli. This has been known since the 90s, where it was used by schools and stores to counter at that time flawed feminist thinking that gender was determined by social cues alone.

[Dalcaria]

Its not rocket science to simply say that the difference between men and women is gender identity.

Actually, as a bio-medical engineer specialising in the brain, I can most definitely tell you that gender is also a programmed state in the brain. Females do react differently to males under neural stimuli. This has been known since the 90s, where it was used by schools and stores to counter at that time flawed feminist thinking that gender was determined by social cues alone.

As I believe Sargon of Akkad may have said...

"If gender is just a social construct, then women could just all decide to be men and receive equal treatment. Feminism wouldn't even be needed by this point."

I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for 3.5 billion people to choose to be men.

[Killdash]

Actually, as a bio-medical engineer specialising in the brain, I can most definitely tell you that gender is also a programmed state in the brain. Females do react differently to males under neural stimuli. This has been known since the 90s, where it was used by schools and stores to counter at that time flawed feminist thinking that gender was determined by social cues alone.

As I believe Sargon of Akkad may have said...

"If gender is just a social construct, then women could just all decide to be men and receive equal treatment. Feminism wouldn't even be needed by this point."

I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for 3.5 billion people to choose to be men.

That's my point exactly. Gender is a biological thing, decided through chromosomal interactions and various other chemical reactions.

[Dalcaria]

As I believe Sargon of Akkad may have said...

"If gender is just a social construct, then women could just all decide to be men and receive equal treatment. Feminism wouldn't even be needed by this point."

I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for 3.5 billion people to choose to be men.

That's my point exactly. Gender is a biological thing, decided through chromosomal interactions and various other chemical reactions.

Is there really any denying that at this point? I compare my youngest sister (who's 7) to myself at 7. She likes girly things and such, and seems very in touch with this idea that certain things are inherently "feminine". Now, we're a fairly open family when it comes to how we were raised, none of us were told we had to do things that were "masculine" or "feminine", except for by my father who nobody liked anyways. I grew up playing with both my guy toys and some of my sisters toys too. I enjoyed action, fighting, etc., but I also liked other things like business, or politics (something my grandfather got me into). My younger sister does a bit of the same, but she takes a noticeably more feminine side with things, not because she has to, but she wants to. And that leads to a point I want to make. Some women are just inherently drawn to feminine things, and the reverse is true for men. But on the flip side, the opposite can be true too! It changes from person to person, but I think we can conclude that genetics plays a part in what a child ends up more interested in, not just social norms.

[Russels Orbiting Teapot]

That's my point exactly. Gender is a biological thing, decided through chromosomal interactions and various other chemical reactions.

Ultimately, so is every thought in your brain.

[Dalcaria]

That's my point exactly. Gender is a biological thing, decided through chromosomal interactions and various other chemical reactions.

Ultimately, so is every thought in your brain.

I think everyone can or should be able to agree on that. But I think his point is more that the narrative that gender is "social" is essentially false. Gender roles can be considered a social construct, but that's about where it ends.

[Russels Orbiting Teapot]

I think everyone can or should be able to agree on that. But I think his point is more that the narrative that gender is "social" is essentially false. Gender roles can be considered a social construct, but that's about where it ends.

Ah. I may have lost the track on the conversation, then.