Caitlyn Jenner: The Reveal & The Reactions

[Herrebrugh]

How is it unnatural? And even if it is unnatural, who the hell cares? Is your computer natural?

Hey man, all I said was that I have mixed feelings about it. Even if I did believe it was unnatural, that doesn't mean I am going to try to make transsexuality illegal or something outrageous like that. People have a right to be whatever they want.

You're posting this on a discussion forum. I am discussing your comment.

So, how exactly is this unnatural? Anyway, I'm arguing that whether something is "natural" is so irrelevant it's useless to even bring it up.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Humans? Or are humans no longer mammals?

So found in nature means you are talking about homo sapiens?

Not necessarily, but the fact that transgenderism is caused by a difference in someone's brain means that it's logical for it to be present in other animals as well.

The fact that lesser species don't really have as developed intricate gender roles as humans means it may not be possible to identify it, however.

[The Orson Empire]

Hey man, all I said was that I have mixed feelings about it. Even if I did believe it was unnatural, that doesn't mean I am going to try to make transsexuality illegal or something outrageous like that. People have a right to be whatever they want.

You're posting this on a discussion forum. I am discussing your comment.

So, how exactly is this unnatural? Anyway, I'm arguing that whether something is "natural" is so irrelevant it's useless to even bring it up.

I guess you have a point.

[The Black Forrest]

So found in nature means you are talking about homo sapiens?

Not necessarily, but the fact that transgenderism is caused by a difference in someone's brain means that it's logical for it to be present in other animals as well.

The fact that lesser species don't really have as developed intricate gender roles as humans means it may not be possible to identify it, however.

Ok but the question remains; where does it exist in nature?

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Not necessarily, but the fact that transgenderism is caused by a difference in someone's brain means that it's logical for it to be present in other animals as well.

The fact that lesser species don't really have as developed intricate gender roles as humans means it may not be possible to identify it, however.

Ok but the question remains; where does it exist in nature?

I can't show you it, I'll concede that. It's a logical conclusion, however, that it exists in nature without being possible/easy to identify.

[The Orson Empire]

Ok but the question remains; where does it exist in nature?

I can't show you it, I'll concede that. It's a logical conclusion, however, that it exists in nature without being possible/easy to identify.

You can't just say its a "logical conclusion". You have to show some proof.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

I can't show you it, I'll concede that. It's a logical conclusion, however, that it exists in nature without being possible/easy to identify.

You can't just say its a "logical conclusion". You have to show some proof.

I already displayed a pretty reasonable string of logic. Using logic to prove things without literally seeing/touching it is usually acceptable.

[Luminesa]

Bullshit. Dictatorships are bad. People don't want them, and history shows us how much trouble they've caused. More pain then gain, end of story on that.

Not all, Suddam husseins iraq had greatly improved the lives of Iraqis and most people quite liked him. Mussolini was quite loved by a great number of Italians and let's not forget Peron who showed the Argentinians they could be proud even as an empire stood on their grounds.

Hussein killed hundreds of thousands of his own people in a war that was an epic fail. Not to mention the Kurds do hate him.

Mussolini got killed by his own people, who bludgeoned him and his mistress to death, then hung their dead bodies upside down at a gas
station and threw stuff at them.

Eva Peron was definitely beloved by many of the Argentinian people (though many of them also hated her, but I digress). Not sure about her hubbie. As usual, there's always the cult of personality that follows dictators like him (and their wives, when they get to be as well known as Evita), so the "likes" and the "dislikes" are often quite blurred. Still, Juan Peron did end up getting ousted in a military coup, so there had to be quite a sizable group of people that didn't like him.

Of course, when you're a politician, you pretty much always become a polarizing figure, especially when you rise to the amount of power and status the three people above reached. However, Hussein, Mussolini, and Juan Peron were most certainly not good, altruistic people.

[Geilinor]

I can't show you it, I'll concede that. It's a logical conclusion, however, that it exists in nature without being possible/easy to identify.

You can't just say its a "logical conclusion". You have to show some proof.

Gender as it applies to humans is irrelevant in nature.

[Killdash]

You can't just say its a "logical conclusion". You have to show some proof.

I already displayed a pretty reasonable string of logic. Using logic to prove things without literally seeing/touching it is usually acceptable.

What you've described there is known as a theory. That is not consistent with the scientific method, which is 1. Observable, 2. Repeatable, 3. Independently verifiable.

[Replevion]

I already displayed a pretty reasonable string of logic. Using logic to prove things without literally seeing/touching it is usually acceptable.

What you've described there is known as a theory. That is not consistent with the scientific method, which is 1. Observable, 2. Repeatable, 3. Independently verifiable.

Actually a theory is a product of the scientific method, not a predicate. What you're trying to say is "hypothesis" which in scientific technical terms is NOT synonymous.

[Luminesa]

I'm not sure how I feel about this.

One side of me says its unnatural, while the other side thinks it should be acceptable.

Your personal opinions don't matter, especially when they're wrong. Whatever your feelings are, you can keep them to yourself, because she is what she is and you have literally no right to tell her otherwise.

How can you tell someone else to keep their opinions to themselves when you are expressing an opinion yourself?

I dunno, sounds contradictory to me.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Your personal opinions don't matter, especially when they're wrong. Whatever your feelings are, you can keep them to yourself, because she is what she is and you have literally no right to tell her otherwise.

How can you tell someone else to keep their opinions to themselves when you are expressing an opinion yourself?

I dunno, sounds contradictory to me.

Because my opinion doesn't cause intolerance and oppression.

No tolerance for intolerance.

[Grenartia]

(Last post for tonight - going to bed after this. Have a good night, everybody. Hope to get back to this thread soon.)

Yet, it hasn't really been extensively studied since the early 2000's
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... statistics

So, it really is relatively quite untraveled territory in the medical and scientific community.

Just...no. Did you look at your link? It's about intersex surgeries, not SRS for trans people.
As Gren said, the first reassignments were in the 30s, and we have yet to note ill effects. For comparison, heart transplants have only been done since 1967. Should we stop encouraging and glorifying heart transplants?

HEART TRANSPLANTS ARE UNTRAVELED TERRITORY IN MEDICAL SCIENCE!

[Grenartia]

So, like the other transgender people in this thread, i have to ask.

How is this hate speech?

As far as what Drake Bell said? It's not hating on Jenner, per se, but calling a trans person by their former identity can dredge up a lot of bad memories. I know a trans person that hates their former identity and did a lot of cutting, much of which is still visible, and calling them what they used to be brings all that back up. It's one thing to make a casual slip-up and apologise, sure, but deliberately doing it(especially with the knowledge that you are doing a potentially hurtful thing) can really sting.

I don't think you'll find a trans person who thinks it isn't hateful, but you certainly won't find any who thinks Drake Bell needs any legal action taken against him.

[The Orson Empire]

How can you tell someone else to keep their opinions to themselves when you are expressing an opinion yourself?

I dunno, sounds contradictory to me.

Because my opinion doesn't cause intolerance and oppression.

No tolerance for intolerance.

And how exactly did my opinion cause "intolerance"?

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Because my opinion doesn't cause intolerance and oppression.

No tolerance for intolerance.

And how exactly did my opinion cause "intolerance"?

It didn't, necessarily. But if you told anyone that Jenner would always be a man or whatever, anything transphobic, it would serve to continue the bigotry.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

I'm not sure how I feel about this.

One side of me says its unnatural, while the other side thinks it should be acceptable.

Your personal opinions don't matter, especially when they're wrong. Whatever your feelings are, you can keep them to yourself, because she is what she is and you have literally no right to tell her otherwise.

Not so. Anyone is free to voice their opinions, so long as they fall within the site rules. And of course, anyone doing so ought to accept the fact that others may not agree with them, and have their own opinions that they will answer with.

It goes both ways, folks. None of us has 'the right' to tell one another how to think, or what opinions we have to have. For all of you who are so intent on being tolerant here, I hope to see the same support of it in other discussions, when others come under attack. Say, religion, personal rights, freedom of speech, the right to bear arms ....

See? Not so easy when it isn't something you want to support or agree with. Point is, if it is within the rules of this site, it is allowed. You don't have to agree, you don't have to support, but you all do need to make an honest effort at treating one another with at least a base amount of courtesy required to have an ongoing discussion or debate.

(No, don't start taking those points I brought up and attempting to dissect them into 'but what if' scenarios. Not the thread for it in any case. I'm talking about the non-harmful bits, and how even decent folks tend to get tarred and feathered if it isn't a standing NSG vocal majority fave. Simply for an opposing view, no more, no less.)

[Mondoncon]

And how exactly did my opinion cause "intolerance"?

It didn't, necessarily. But if you told anyone that Jenner would always be a man or whatever, anything transphobic, it would serve to continue the bigotry.

And reacting to people on the fence about an issue with aggressive terms like "your opinion doesn't matter" only serves to continue the divide which could otherwise be bettered by tolerance and education.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Your personal opinions don't matter, especially when they're wrong. Whatever your feelings are, you can keep them to yourself, because she is what she is and you have literally no right to tell her otherwise.

Not so. Anyone is free to voice their opinions, so long as they fall within the site rules. And of course, anyone doing so ought to accept the fact that others may not agree with them, and have their own opinions that they will answer with.

It goes both ways, folks. None of us has 'the right' to tell one another how to think, or what opinions we have to have. For all of you who are so intent on being tolerant here, I hope to see the same support of it in other discussions, when others come under attack. Say, religion, personal rights, freedom of speech, the right to bear arms ....

See? Not so easy when it isn't something you want to support or agree with. Point is, if it is within the rules of this site, it is allowed. You don't have to agree, you don't have to support, but you all do need to make an honest effort at treating one another with at least a base amount of courtesy required to have an ongoing discussion or debate.

(No, don't start taking those points I brought up and attempting to dissect them into 'but what if' scenarios. Not the thread for it in any case. I'm talking about the non-harmful bits, and how even decent folks tend to get tarred and feathered if it isn't a standing NSG vocal majority fave. Simply for an opposing view, no more, no less.)

I don't mean that he literally can't express the view. I mean that an opinion used to oppress should not be voiced.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

It didn't, necessarily. But if you told anyone that Jenner would always be a man or whatever, anything transphobic, it would serve to continue the bigotry.

And reacting to people on the fence about an issue with aggressive terms like "your opinion doesn't matter" only serves to continue the divide which could otherwise be bettered by tolerance and education.

Valid point. I get worked up sometimes.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

I don't mean that he literally can't express the view. I mean that an opinion used to oppress should not be voiced.

You need to learn when and where to use 'literally'. It might help with some of that confusion. Point is, if it's within the rules, like it or not, it's fair posting material. If it crosses lines, we'll try to deal with it as evenly as possible. Thanks.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

I don't mean that he literally can't express the view. I mean that an opinion used to oppress should not be voiced.

You need to learn when and where to use 'literally'. It might help with some of that confusion. Point is, if it's within the rules, like it or not, it's fair posting material. If it crosses lines, we'll try to deal with it as evenly as possible. Thanks.

Ok. I know this. I wasn't saying his opinion was against site rules. I was expressing the belief that he morally should not expound said views.

[Grenartia]

i am sure you have refreshing new arguments that have not already been debunked 5000 times in the past years and at least 3 times in this thread alone and i look forward to seeing them

I'm not going to make rocket science here and keep things simple. No matter how I would say this there would be someone who says that it's still not right.

Its not rocket science to simply say that the difference between men and women is gender identity.

[Grenartia]

Actually, to be honest, wouldn't shutting down Fox News be a good thing?

I mean, they only misinform people, and actually pursued legal rights to be able to lie. The people deserve honest news!

I wouldn't miss them, not one bit, but no.

Honestly, I always figured the best way to deal with Faux News and other non-reputable outlets is to mandate that the press only report verified facts, and clearly indicate all non-verifiable statements as speculation or opinion. And the best part is that it doesn't infringe on freedom of speech, because they can still say whatever they want, as long as they indicate it to be speculation or opinion.