Caitlyn Jenner: The Reveal & The Reactions

[New Babylonia]

Yes, Rep, thank you.

I'm a Libertarian Socialist, i hate dictatorships. If the US tried to become one, i would die resisting it.

Not all dictatorships are bad.

Bullshit. Dictatorships are bad. People don't want them, and history shows us how much trouble they've caused. More pain then gain, end of story on that.

[Eastern Equestria]

But who gets to decide what's offensive and what's not?

Social norms.

....which are entirely arbitrary.

[Replevion]

You're also generalizing and making assumptions about experience. I know trans people for whom the dysphoria and differential gender identity didn't occur until later in life, no repression involved. Even though it's typical, we're not in the Harry Benjamin era anymore and it's not a requisite that every trans person feel like other gender from early childhood just to be valid.

Ye gods. If they undergo a sex change operation the gender is not being altered. Does this conflict with anything you have stated?

The gender aspect can be from early age, or it can be later on, it is irrelevant. Snarling at somebody because they realized they identify more with one gender over another is wrong no matter when the decision is made.

You made it relevant by claiming "gender isn't changing" like you know every facet of what's gone on in Caitlyn's head since birth. You were making an absolute statement/claim that you could not actually know, whether it was personal or general.

[Godular]

Ye gods. If they undergo a sex change operation the gender is not being altered. Does this conflict with anything you have stated?

The gender aspect can be from early age, or it can be later on, it is irrelevant. Snarling at somebody because they realized they identify more with one gender over another is wrong no matter when the decision is made.

You made it relevant by claiming "gender isn't changing" like you know every facet of what's gone on in Caitlyn's head since birth. You were making an absolute statement/claim that you could not actually know, whether it was personal or general.

It is not being changed by the operation.

[Replevion]

Not all dictatorships are bad.

Bullshit. Dictatorships are bad. People don't want them, and history shows us how much trouble they've caused. More pain then gain, end of story on that.

Just to play devil's advocate, do you think Singapore is/was bad under Lee Kuan Yew?

[Replevion]

You made it relevant by claiming "gender isn't changing" like you know every facet of what's gone on in Caitlyn's head since birth. You were making an absolute statement/claim that you could not actually know, whether it was personal or general.

It is not being changed by the operation.

Nobody explicitly was talking about surgery until your last couple messages in the chain. The catalyst for this chain was a guy saying he didn't think 'changing gender' was good, and you said it wasn't changing, like you knew. That's where this started. It was, in the most generous interpretation, unclear and ambiguous. If looked at literally, it's just wrong.

[Godular]

It is not being changed by the operation.

Nobody explicitly was talking about surgery until your last couple messages in the chain. The catalyst for this chain was a guy saying he didn't think 'changing gender' was good, and you said it wasn't changing, like you knew. That's where this started. It was, in the most generous interpretation, unclear and ambiguous. If looked at literally, it's just wrong.

Considered in the context of this entire thread, one would be inclined to presume that we are speaking on the physical aspect, and was so implied in the initial post to which I replied and which was also apparently the message conveyed by subsequent statements by the same poster.

In this situation, The intent of my initial message was that it was not the gender that was being changed, but the sex. So thank you good gentleperson for this merry surplus of words in my mouth, but I would prefer to return them to their rightful owner.

[Replevion]

Nobody explicitly was talking about surgery until your last couple messages in the chain. The catalyst for this chain was a guy saying he didn't think 'changing gender' was good, and you said it wasn't changing, like you knew. That's where this started. It was, in the most generous interpretation, unclear and ambiguous. If looked at literally, it's just wrong.

Considered in the context of this entire thread, one would be inclined to presume that we are speaking on the physical aspect, and was so implied in the initial post to which I replied and which was also apparently the message conveyed by subsequent statements by the same poster.

In this situation, The intent of my initial message was that it was not the gender that was being changed, but the sex. So thank you good gentleperson for this merry surplus of words in my mouth, but I would prefer to return them to their rightful owner.

Intent and assumptions. You're just a regular psychic, and apparently you think everybody reading is too.

And don't accuse me of strawmanning you. It's what you fucking said. Again:

I don't want to judge anyone but I don't find changing gender to be a good thing.

Gender ain't the thing being changed.

You weren't being clear, and instead of saying 'sorry, my bad for not being clear' you're defending to the death some conception that it was a really good idea to make a response that omitted any kind of context and hinged on nothing but implications, assumptions, and intent.

[Eastfield Lodge]

But who gets to decide what's offensive and what's not?

Social norms.

What if the social norms dictate that it's not offensive, and in fact encouraged, to call for lynching black people?

[Herrebrugh]

This 'reporting' from Fox News is disgusting and transphobic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQSvlI6K8n4

People like that should not be given a voice or listened to. like what the fuck

Those appear to be some very mature people. Very mature indeed.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Yes, Rep, thank you.

I'm a Libertarian Socialist, i hate dictatorships. If the US tried to become one, i would die resisting it.

Not all dictatorships are bad.

Yes they are.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Social norms.

What if the social norms dictate that it's not offensive, and in fact encouraged, to call for lynching black people?

Then it's not considered offensive.

It's still morally fucked.

[Benian Republic]

Not all dictatorships are bad.

Bullshit. Dictatorships are bad. People don't want them, and history shows us how much trouble they've caused. More pain then gain, end of story on that.

Not all, Suddam husseins iraq had greatly improved the lives of Iraqis and most people quite liked him. Mussolini was quite loved by a great number of Italians and let's not forget Peron who showed the Argentinians they could be proud even as an empire stood on their grounds.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Bullshit. Dictatorships are bad. People don't want them, and history shows us how much trouble they've caused. More pain then gain, end of story on that.

Not all, Suddam husseins iraq had greatly improved the lives of Iraqis and most people quite liked him. Mussolini was quite loved by a great number of Italians and let's not forget Peron who showed the Argentinians they could be proud even as an empire stood on their grounds.

Cults of personality and mild improvement from hell are not that impressive or good.

[The Orson Empire]

I'm not sure how I feel about this.

One side of me says its unnatural, while the other side thinks it should be acceptable.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

I'm not sure how I feel about this.

One side of me says its unnatural, while the other side thinks it should be acceptable.

Your personal opinions don't matter, especially when they're wrong. Whatever your feelings are, you can keep them to yourself, because she is what she is and you have literally no right to tell her otherwise.

[The Orson Empire]

I'm not sure how I feel about this.

One side of me says its unnatural, while the other side thinks it should be acceptable.

Your personal opinions don't matter, especially when they're wrong. Whatever your feelings are, you can keep them to yourself, because she is what she is and you have literally no right to tell her otherwise.

I never said I was going to. Caitlyn has a right to be whatever she wants, and I do not believe in infringing on said rights. I just said I'm not sure how I feel about it.

[Geanna]

Just...no. Did you look at your link? It's about intersex surgeries, not SRS for trans people.
As Gren said, the first reassignments were in the 30s, and we have yet to note ill effects. For comparison, heart transplants have only been done since 1967. Should we stop encouraging and glorifying heart transplants?

Heart transplants are indeed quite successful! Now, as for gender-reassignment surgeries...here's an interesting article I am leaving to ya'll, before I go to sleep and charge my computer.

http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/04/14905/

Written by a guy who himself underwent gender-reassignment surgery. It has plenty of history and scientific evidence to back up the statement.

As for myself, I do feel sorry for Jenner, as the pressure society has put on one's sexuality is unprecedented, and I have a bad feeling about his/her sex change.

Also, question of logic: How is one's gender fluid but one's sexuality incapable of changing?

Night!

Ah yes - a cherry-pick, and then immediate vacate of the discussion.

Human Sexuality is a hard-wired biological construct. Gender has to deal with the mind - they do not always go hand-in-hand. And before it gets brought up, the SJW Tumblrites; the people who say they're ''apaches'' - are either trolls, or attention seekers - so no - they are not apart of the Trans community. Furthermore, for the aforementioned distinction, it is because Sexuality does not always equal Gender - that you have more masculine or feminine individuals.

Gender Fluid individuals, are people who - for the most part, are in the centre as androgynous, and some days may dress or behave feminine or masculine. The psychology, and biology of it - really isn't that difficult to understand, and you'll be surprised how much chemicals have an impact on human development and cognition.

[Herrebrugh]

I'm not sure how I feel about this.

One side of me says its unnatural, while the other side thinks it should be acceptable.

How is it unnatural? And even if it is unnatural, who the hell cares? Is your computer natural?

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Your personal opinions don't matter, especially when they're wrong. Whatever your feelings are, you can keep them to yourself, because she is what she is and you have literally no right to tell her otherwise.

I never said I was going to. Caitlyn has a right to be whatever she wants, and I do not believe in infringing on said rights. I just said I'm not sure how I feel about it.

Well that "side of you" that says it's unnatural is just blatantly wrong - since, you know, it's found in nature.

[The Black Forrest]

I never said I was going to. Caitlyn has a right to be whatever she wants, and I do not believe in infringing on said rights. I just said I'm not sure how I feel about it.

Well that "side of you" that says it's unnatural is just blatantly wrong - since, you know, it's found in nature.

What mammal has done that?

[The Orson Empire]

I'm not sure how I feel about this.

One side of me says its unnatural, while the other side thinks it should be acceptable.

How is it unnatural? And even if it is unnatural, who the hell cares? Is your computer natural?

Hey man, all I said was that I have mixed feelings about it. Even if I did believe it was unnatural, that doesn't mean I am going to try to make transsexuality illegal or something outrageous like that. People have a right to be whatever they want.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Well that "side of you" that says it's unnatural is just blatantly wrong - since, you know, it's found in nature.

What mammal has done that?

Humans? Or are humans no longer mammals?

[Prussia-Steinbach]

How is it unnatural? And even if it is unnatural, who the hell cares? Is your computer natural?

Hey man, all I said was that I have mixed feelings about it. Even if I did believe it was unnatural, that doesn't mean I am going to try to make transsexuality illegal or something outrageous like that. People have a right to be whatever they want.

Good. Now we're talking about the fact that the part of you that thinks it's unnatural is just flat-out wrong.

[The Black Forrest]

What mammal has done that?

Humans? Or are humans no longer mammals?

So found in nature means you are talking about homo sapiens?