Caitlyn Jenner: The Reveal & The Reactions

[Replevion]

If you mean in the context that her gender was always actually female, you're right, but that's mixed with expression/performance which is a component of gender, and that has changed.

If you're conflating gender with sex, you're wrong.

Gender is the mental aspect, sex is the physical aspect.

When considering expression and performance, one is only looking at how well the person can hide their own behavior and predisposition. Just because one can act male or female does not automatically mean they are male or female in their head.

You're also generalizing and making assumptions about experience. I know trans people for whom the dysphoria and differential gender identity didn't occur until later in life, no repression involved. Even though it's typical, we're not in the Harry Benjamin era anymore and it's not a requisite that every trans person feel like other gender from early childhood just to be valid.

[Souseiseki]

Gender ain't the thing being changed.

I think there is a difference between man and woman.

i am sure you have refreshing new arguments that have not already been debunked 5000 times in the past years and at least 3 times in this thread alone and i look forward to seeing them

[New Babylonia]

I meant, like expecting it. Hetero people don't expect to be talked to that way about it, for example. My hope is one day, trans people can say the same for themselves. I'm probably just being wishful here, oh well.

People are always gonna hate, of course. Can't stop that. There's heterophobia even. People hate everything, don't know why.

Of course. Some transgender people can't actually be distinguished from cisgender people. I think it's better to strive that we get the technology that means that all transgender people can pass as "normal" people, though eliminating widespread transphobia is also important. Unfortunately for Caitlyn, due to her fame, she'll always receive some degree of transphobic abuse. But having people like her and Laura Jane Grace especially, it's good for progress.

I wish they had the technology to allow me to willingly switch between physical sex. That would be awesome.
That would be decades after they could make a transwoman look like any biologically born women, or any transmale like any biological man of course. As long as we don't destroy ourselves before then, it'll happen eventually.

So, like the other transgender people in this thread, i have to ask.

How is this hate speech?

Pro: Racialism, Linguistic Purity, Free Markets, Scandinavia, Christianity.
Anti: Islam, Africa, Political Correctness, Multiculturalism.

does that answer your question?

*checks the OP, looks at signature*
Actually yes, yes it does. Thank you.

[Teemant]

I think there is a difference between man and woman.

i am sure you have refreshing new arguments that have not already been debunked 5000 times in the past years and at least 3 times in this thread alone and i look forward to seeing them

I'm not going to make rocket science here and keep things simple. No matter how I would say this there would be someone who says that it's still not right.

[Atlanticatia]

This 'reporting' from Fox News is disgusting and transphobic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQSvlI6K8n4

People like that should not be given a voice or listened to. like what the fuck

[Farnhamia]

This 'reporting' from Fox News is disgusting and transphobic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQSvlI6K8n4

People like that should not be given a voice or listened to. like what the fuck

People like Caitlyn Jenner should not be ... see how that goes? Listening to people like that is, of course, a choice. Allowing them a voice is not.

[New Babylonia]

This 'reporting' from Fox News is disgusting and transphobic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQSvlI6K8n4

People like that should not be given a voice or listened to. like what the fuck

People like Caitlyn Jenner should not be ... see how that goes? Listening to people like that is, of course, a choice. Allowing them a voice is not.

Thats not necessarily true Farn. I know a number of dictatorships which disagree with your last sentence

[Farnhamia]

People like Caitlyn Jenner should not be ... see how that goes? Listening to people like that is, of course, a choice. Allowing them a voice is not.

Thats not necessarily true Farn. I know a number of dictatorships which disagree with your last sentence

Are you saying the United States ought to adopt a totalitarian attitude toward speech? Would you like to be on the receiving end of such a thing?

[Replevion]

Thats not necessarily true Farn. I know a number of dictatorships which disagree with your last sentence

Are you saying the United States ought to adopt a totalitarian attitude toward speech? Would you like to be on the receiving end of such a thing?

Easy there, they're just making a joke.

[New Babylonia]

Are you saying the United States ought to adopt a totalitarian attitude toward speech? Would you like to be on the receiving end of such a thing?

Easy there, they're just making a joke.

Yes, Rep, thank you.

I'm a Libertarian Socialist, i hate dictatorships. If the US tried to become one, i would die resisting it.

[Farnhamia]

Are you saying the United States ought to adopt a totalitarian attitude toward speech? Would you like to be on the receiving end of such a thing?

Easy there, they're just making a joke.

A joke? *summons Guards* What? *sigh* Oh, alright, they can live.

[Atlanticatia]

This 'reporting' from Fox News is disgusting and transphobic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQSvlI6K8n4

People like that should not be given a voice or listened to. like what the fuck

People like Caitlyn Jenner should not be ... see how that goes? Listening to people like that is, of course, a choice. Allowing them a voice is not.

We shouldn't tolerate intolerance - nor should Fox News (or any media) be giving a platform to transphobes, homophobes, racists, and sexists.

[Souseiseki]

This 'reporting' from Fox News is disgusting and transphobic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQSvlI6K8n4

People like that should not be given a voice or listened to. like what the fuck

People like Caitlyn Jenner should not be ... see how that goes? Listening to people like that is, of course, a choice. Allowing them a voice is not.

woah make sure you don't slip on that slope. i've heard it's really dangerous. just a heads up.

[Farnhamia]

People like Caitlyn Jenner should not be ... see how that goes? Listening to people like that is, of course, a choice. Allowing them a voice is not.

We shouldn't tolerate intolerance - nor should Fox News (or any media) be giving a platform to transphobes, homophobes, racists, and sexists.

We should call them on what they say, absolutely but I cannot agree to denying them a place to voice their opinions, no matter how vile.

[Atlanticatia]

We shouldn't tolerate intolerance - nor should Fox News (or any media) be giving a platform to transphobes, homophobes, racists, and sexists.

We should call them on what they say, absolutely but I cannot agree to denying them a place to voice their opinions, no matter how vile.

I'm just saying it isn't appropriate for major mainstream media to be giving them a huge platform, when it's offensive and dangerous for trans people. Mainstream media needs to be more responsible and pursue more self-regulatory policies, with rules against hate speech and offensive actions. People should be expected to not offend people or mock people for being trans, gay, black, etc etc in a decent society. I don't think we should tolerate that.

[Farnhamia]

We should call them on what they say, absolutely but I cannot agree to denying them a place to voice their opinions, no matter how vile.

I'm just saying it isn't appropriate for major mainstream media to be giving them a huge platform, when it's offensive and dangerous for trans people. Mainstream media needs to be more responsible and pursue more self-regulatory policies, with rules against hate speech and offensive actions. People should be expected to not offend people or mock people for being trans, gay, black, etc etc in a decent society. I don't think we should tolerate that.

So, what then? Shut down Fox News?

[New Babylonia]

I'm just saying it isn't appropriate for major mainstream media to be giving them a huge platform, when it's offensive and dangerous for trans people. Mainstream media needs to be more responsible and pursue more self-regulatory policies, with rules against hate speech and offensive actions. People should be expected to not offend people or mock people for being trans, gay, black, etc etc in a decent society. I don't think we should tolerate that.

So, what then? Shut down Fox News?

Actually, to be honest, wouldn't shutting down Fox News be a good thing?

I mean, they only misinform people, and actually pursued legal rights to be able to lie. The people deserve honest news!

[Farnhamia]

So, what then? Shut down Fox News?

Actually, to be honest, wouldn't shutting down Fox News be a good thing?

I mean, they only misinform people, and actually pursued legal rights to be able to lie. The people deserve honest news!

I wouldn't miss them, not one bit, but no.

[New Babylonia]

Actually, to be honest, wouldn't shutting down Fox News be a good thing?

I mean, they only misinform people, and actually pursued legal rights to be able to lie. The people deserve honest news!

I wouldn't miss them, not one bit, but no.

Free speech or not, intentionally misleading millions of people and pursuing legal right to do it, should no be permitted. You can express your conservative opinions, while still being honest about what you report.

[Godular]

Gender ain't the thing being changed.

I think there is a difference between man and woman.

Indeed, but as was mentioned previously, sex and gender are two different things. This is one reason it is called a 'sex-change' operation.

Sex is physical, gender is mental. The two do not necessarily match up.

[Atlanticatia]

I'm just saying it isn't appropriate for major mainstream media to be giving them a huge platform, when it's offensive and dangerous for trans people. Mainstream media needs to be more responsible and pursue more self-regulatory policies, with rules against hate speech and offensive actions. People should be expected to not offend people or mock people for being trans, gay, black, etc etc in a decent society. I don't think we should tolerate that.

So, what then? Shut down Fox News?

I'm not advocating for a law or anything like that, but I think society can regulate itself to keep offensive opinions like this out of the mainstream public sphere. (Although, I wouldn't mind Fox News being shut down...)

[Benian Republic]

Easy there, they're just making a joke.

Yes, Rep, thank you.

I'm a Libertarian Socialist, i hate dictatorships. If the US tried to become one, i would die resisting it.

Not all dictatorships are bad.

[Benian Republic]

So, what then? Shut down Fox News?

I'm not advocating for a law or anything like that, but I think society can regulate itself to keep offensive opinions like this out of the mainstream public sphere. (Although, I wouldn't mind Fox News being shut down...)

But who gets to decide what's offensive and what's not?

[Godular]

Gender is the mental aspect, sex is the physical aspect.

When considering expression and performance, one is only looking at how well the person can hide their own behavior and predisposition. Just because one can act male or female does not automatically mean they are male or female in their head.

You're also generalizing and making assumptions about experience. I know trans people for whom the dysphoria and differential gender identity didn't occur until later in life, no repression involved. Even though it's typical, we're not in the Harry Benjamin era anymore and it's not a requisite that every trans person feel like other gender from early childhood just to be valid.

Ye gods. If they undergo a sex change operation the gender is not being altered. Does this conflict with anything you have stated?

The gender aspect can be from early age, or it can be later on, it is irrelevant. Snarling at somebody because they realized they identify more with one gender over another is wrong no matter when the decision is made.

[Atlanticatia]

I'm not advocating for a law or anything like that, but I think society can regulate itself to keep offensive opinions like this out of the mainstream public sphere. (Although, I wouldn't mind Fox News being shut down...)

But who gets to decide what's offensive and what's not?

Social norms.