Caitlyn Jenner: The Reveal & The Reactions

[New Babylonia]

So, like the other transgender people in this thread, i have to ask.

How is this hate speech?

[Schwere Panzer Abieltung 502]

So, like the other transgender people in this thread, i have to ask.

How is this hate speech?

As far as what Drake Bell said? It's not hating on Jenner, per se, but calling a trans person by their former identity can dredge up a lot of bad memories. I know a trans person that hates their former identity and did a lot of cutting, much of which is still visible, and calling them what they used to be brings all that back up. It's one thing to make a casual slip-up and apologise, sure, but deliberately doing it(especially with the knowledge that you are doing a potentially hurtful thing) can really sting.

[Teemant]

I don't want to judge anyone but I don't find changing gender to be a good thing.

[Godular]

I don't want to judge anyone but I don't find changing gender to be a good thing.

Gender ain't the thing being changed.

[Replevion]

I don't want to judge anyone but I don't find changing gender to be a good thing.

I'm sure you've studied all the relevant guidance from mental health professionals, which would mean you want transgender people to kill themselves instead, hmm? Because that's what happens.

I don't want to judge anyone but I don't find changing gender to be a good thing.

Gender ain't the thing being changed.

It is one of the things.

[Replevion]

Just...no. Did you look at your link? It's about intersex surgeries, not SRS for trans people.
As Gren said, the first reassignments were in the 30s, and we have yet to note ill effects. For comparison, heart transplants have only been done since 1967. Should we stop encouraging and glorifying heart transplants?

Heart transplants are indeed quite successful! Now, as for gender-reassignment surgeries...here's an interesting article I am leaving to ya'll, before I go to sleep and charge my computer.

http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/04/14905/

Written by a guy who himself underwent gender-reassignment surgery. It has plenty of history and scientific evidence to back up the statement.

As for myself, I do feel sorry for Jenner, as the pressure society has put on one's sexuality is unprecedented, and I have a bad feeling about his/her sex change.

Also, question of logic: How is one's gender fluid but one's sexuality incapable of changing?

Night!

People need to remember that science moves on, as does society. If you're basing your ideas off of obsolete and/or discredited information from decades ago you should really find out what's happened in the last couple generations.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tan ... 60626.html
http://www.ftmsc.org/files/Affirming_Gender.pdf
http://www.gires.org.uk/assets/Medpro-A ... _study.pdf

To your "logic" question: the mutability of gender is irrelevant. Nobody's going to recommend SRS for a genderfluid person. Sexuality's mutability doesn't matter either because deciding you want to bang other people has nothing intrinsically to do with your anatomy or your gender identity.

[New Babylonia]

So, like the other transgender people in this thread, i have to ask.

How is this hate speech?

As far as what Drake Bell said? It's not hating on Jenner, per se, but calling a trans person by their former identity can dredge up a lot of bad memories. I know a trans person that hates their former identity and did a lot of cutting, much of which is still visible, and calling them what they used to be brings all that back up. It's one thing to make a casual slip-up and apologise, sure, but deliberately doing it(especially with the knowledge that you are doing a potentially hurtful thing) can really sting.

Wow, as a transgender person it's totally like i did not know that happened when people did that. Thanks for explaining the obvious.

Given my obvious implication i am trans myself, the tone for that question should obviously have been one with the vision of a raised eyebrow and slight touch of sarcasm to it. Frankly, it's a preposterous accusation of hate speech.

[Replevion]

As far as what Drake Bell said? It's not hating on Jenner, per se, but calling a trans person by their former identity can dredge up a lot of bad memories. I know a trans person that hates their former identity and did a lot of cutting, much of which is still visible, and calling them what they used to be brings all that back up. It's one thing to make a casual slip-up and apologise, sure, but deliberately doing it(especially with the knowledge that you are doing a potentially hurtful thing) can really sting.

Wow, as a transgender person it's totally like i did not know that happened when people did that. Thanks for explaining the obvious.

Given my obvious implication i am trans myself, the tone for that question should obviously have been one with the vision of a raised eyebrow and slight touch of sarcasm to it. Frankly, it's a preposterous accusation of hate speech.

Though I want to preface this by saying I'm not trying to question whether you're "trans enough" or other such gatekeeping nonsense, I do have to wonder if you, being somebody who is genderfluid and explicitly says that any pronoun is fine, truly understand what it's like for people for whom any pronoun is not fine. I have nothing but respect for non-binary people, but your experiences and struggles are not a one to one correlation with binary trans people, and in that context please don't speak for us on matters where our preferences and goals diverge. I certainly don't and won't when things are the other way around.

[Godular]

I don't want to judge anyone but I don't find changing gender to be a good thing.

I'm sure you've studied all the relevant guidance from mental health professionals, which would mean you want transgender people to kill themselves instead, hmm? Because that's what happens.

Gender ain't the thing being changed.

It is one of the things.

No it really isn't. It is the only thing that is NOT being changed.

[New Babylonia]

Wow, as a transgender person it's totally like i did not know that happened when people did that. Thanks for explaining the obvious.

Given my obvious implication i am trans myself, the tone for that question should obviously have been one with the vision of a raised eyebrow and slight touch of sarcasm to it. Frankly, it's a preposterous accusation of hate speech.

Though I want to preface this by saying I'm not trying to question whether you're "trans enough" or other such gatekeeping nonsense, I do have to wonder if you, being somebody who is genderfluid and explicitly says that any pronoun is fine, truly understand what it's like for people for whom any pronoun is not fine. I have nothing but respect for non-binary people, but your experiences and struggles are not a one to one correlation with binary trans people, and in that context please don't speak for us on matters where our preferences and goals diverge. I certainly don't and won't when things are the other way around.

I happen to have such a girl in my CTE campus, actually. Thankfully, the students that get transported there are pretty tolerable, and don't seem to mind. I've only heard her called male a few times, and each time you could see visibly the discomfort before it was quickly corrected.

I personally do not get that bothered by it (often anyway, on rare occasions i do feel one strong enough to request specifics be used), but i do personally know someone who does. And even i slip it up sometimes, to which i feel like an incredible asshole. People in her actual class have seen her almost in tears, and knew immediately what it was, shortly after she arrived. I'm happy not to have seen this, or i would probably have been crying too. The good news is, CTE campus is tolerant, home schools aren't.

Direct personal experience of feeling irritated by a pronoun used on me. Very very very very rarely. Experience with a personal friend who does care, i do have that. Unfortunately we do not attend the same home school, or i would certainly be correcting people left and right with increasing attitude. That's the real life friend, i know others on the internet, but real life is a better example.

Not saying Drake wasn't an asshole. He was. Was it necessarily hate speech? Not quite. Infact, to my knowledge, you can be prosecuted for hate speech in the US, so i would think if it was mr Bell would have some legal issues at hand right now. Still shouldn't have done it, Caitlyn certainly didn't enjoying hearing it (given fact), and his manager should smack upside the head like Gibs does for being an insensitive tard.

About the worst i've had from genderfluifity is having a once close friend find out, who completely flipped shit and decided i was some horrific demonic disgrace to human existence, and made it very clear they felt this way, to the point of even condoning violence. That's he best example of personal experience i have for you. Crying for three days over being intensely hated and betrayed by a close friend over me being me, is not fun. From my friend, and my own little story, i can imagine that Caitlyn, who has likely seen or heard about it, felt very good either - from Drake and other news outlets.

So, i hope that is good enough justification of experience and knowledge on my part for you. If not, nothing i can do about that.

That being said, hate speech is categorized and defined by being meant to condone or promote violence, or intentionally voice extreme prejudice, disparage, or intimidation. Drake simply was doing none of that. He didn't promote violence, purposefully incite prejudice, he did not claim or suggest Caitlyn to be worthless, nor did he try to intimidate. He's still a massive cock, of course, just not committing hate speech.

[Replevion]

I'm sure you've studied all the relevant guidance from mental health professionals, which would mean you want transgender people to kill themselves instead, hmm? Because that's what happens.



It is one of the things.

No it really isn't. It is the only thing that is NOT being changed.

If you mean in the context that her gender was always actually female, you're right, but that's mixed with expression/performance which is a component of gender, and that has changed.

If you're conflating gender with sex, you're wrong.

[Schwere Panzer Abieltung 502]

As far as what Drake Bell said? It's not hating on Jenner, per se, but calling a trans person by their former identity can dredge up a lot of bad memories. I know a trans person that hates their former identity and did a lot of cutting, much of which is still visible, and calling them what they used to be brings all that back up. It's one thing to make a casual slip-up and apologise, sure, but deliberately doing it(especially with the knowledge that you are doing a potentially hurtful thing) can really sting.

Wow, as a transgender person it's totally like i did not know that happened when people did that. Thanks for explaining the obvious.

Given my obvious implication i am trans myself, the tone for that question should obviously have been one with the vision of a raised eyebrow and slight touch of sarcasm to it. Frankly, it's a preposterous accusation of hate speech.

Apologies, I was unaware. I'm sure you know as well as anyone else that tone is perhaps a bit hard to convey over the Internet. You don't have to immediately assume the worst, as I was only trying to be helpful - I'm sorry if I offended you in any way(totally not).

And it might not be hate speech to you, but your experiences do not constitute the majority of trans people, and Drake Bell probably knew he was throwing rocks at a wasp nest when he made that comment.

[New Babylonia]

Wow, as a transgender person it's totally like i did not know that happened when people did that. Thanks for explaining the obvious.

Given my obvious implication i am trans myself, the tone for that question should obviously have been one with the vision of a raised eyebrow and slight touch of sarcasm to it. Frankly, it's a preposterous accusation of hate speech.

Apologies, I was unaware. I'm sure you know as well as anyone else that tone is perhaps a bit hard to convey over the Internet. You don't have to immediately assume the worst, as I was only trying to be helpful - I'm sorry if I offended you in any way(totally not).

And it might not be hate speech to you, but your experiences do not constitute the majority of trans people, and Drake Bell probably knew he was throwing rocks at a wasp nest when he made that comment.

No offense. I just get real pissy like a little kid when people tell me obvious things i know. It's a bad habit, but sadly it's there.

It's not hate speech by law and definition, as my above post states. If the US had Hate Speech laws, Drake would not be prosecuted. What he said, does not constitute hate speech. What he said, constitutes ignorance, bigotry, and simply being an asshole. It's not hate speech though. He isn't hating anyone. Being disrespectful, sure. Hate? None. He says nothing about hating Caitlyn now, or other trans. Only that he will ignorantly choose not to use the requested pronoun.

If you'd like, i can paste the definition of hate speech.

[Beautiful Transgender People]

As a transgirl myself, but somebody who didn't actually know Caitlyn Jenner was beforehand, I feel that while I can sympathise her situation, I cannot say that it's especially a big thing for me, though it probably will be. As with the comments, while it is a pretty shitty thing, I'm not particularly surprised. We can't expect to never see such comments, sadly.

[Godular]

No it really isn't. It is the only thing that is NOT being changed.

If you mean in the context that her gender was always actually female, you're right, but that's mixed with expression/performance which is a component of gender, and that has changed.

If you're conflating gender with sex, you're wrong.

Gender is the mental aspect, sex is the physical aspect.

When considering expression and performance, one is only looking at how well the person can hide their own behavior and predisposition. Just because one can act male or female does not automatically mean they are male or female in their head.

[New Babylonia]

As a transgirl myself, but somebody who didn't actually know Caitlyn Jenner was beforehand, I feel that while I can sympathise her situation, I cannot say that it's especially a big thing for me, though it probably will be. As with the comments, while it is a pretty shitty thing, I'm not particularly surprised. We can't expect to never see such comments, sadly.

Perhaps one day. The world is at least changing. Whether any of us will be around for that, we can only hope. One day, though, assholes like this will be the exception, and not the rule. Which is good. Just gotta keep working for that better future.

[Schwere Panzer Abieltung 502]

Apologies, I was unaware. I'm sure you know as well as anyone else that tone is perhaps a bit hard to convey over the Internet. You don't have to immediately assume the worst, as I was only trying to be helpful - I'm sorry if I offended you in any way(totally not).

And it might not be hate speech to you, but your experiences do not constitute the majority of trans people, and Drake Bell probably knew he was throwing rocks at a wasp nest when he made that comment.

No offense. I just get real pissy like a little kid when people tell me obvious things i know. It's a bad habit, but sadly it's there.

It's not hate speech by law and definition, as my above post states. If the US had Hate Speech laws, Drake would not be prosecuted. What he said, does not constitute hate speech. What he said, constitutes ignorance, bigotry, and simply being an asshole. It's not hate speech though. He isn't hating anyone. Being disrespectful, sure. Hate? None. He says nothing about hating Caitlyn now, or other trans. Only that he will ignorantly choose not to use the requested pronoun.

If you'd like, i can paste the definition of hate speech.

I can google it, thank you.
If Wiki is anything to go by, then attacking someone on the basis of their sexuality is hate speech. You can't really say that Jenner was being attacked, but Bell was being an idiot. Idiocy is not outlawed.

[Beautiful Transgender People]

As a transgirl myself, but somebody who didn't actually know Caitlyn Jenner was beforehand, I feel that while I can sympathise her situation, I cannot say that it's especially a big thing for me, though it probably will be. As with the comments, while it is a pretty shitty thing, I'm not particularly surprised. We can't expect to never see such comments, sadly.

Perhaps one day. The world is at least changing. Whether any of us will be around for that, we can only hope. One day, though, assholes like this will be the exception, and not the rule. Which is good. Just gotta keep working for that better future.

There will NEVER be no transphobia. Ever. However, as transgender rights catch up with sexuality based rights, comments like this will heavily be shamed, as they should be.

[New Babylonia]

No offense. I just get real pissy like a little kid when people tell me obvious things i know. It's a bad habit, but sadly it's there.

It's not hate speech by law and definition, as my above post states. If the US had Hate Speech laws, Drake would not be prosecuted. What he said, does not constitute hate speech. What he said, constitutes ignorance, bigotry, and simply being an asshole. It's not hate speech though. He isn't hating anyone. Being disrespectful, sure. Hate? None. He says nothing about hating Caitlyn now, or other trans. Only that he will ignorantly choose not to use the requested pronoun.

If you'd like, i can paste the definition of hate speech.

I can google it, thank you.
If Wiki is anything to go by, then attacking someone on the basis of their sexuality is hate speech. You can't really say that Jenner was being attacked, but Bell was being an idiot. Idiocy is not outlawed.

He certainly was being an idiot.

The attacked thing is something i have happened to me, thankfully only once. Never reported it though, for whatever reason, oh well. Past is past, just gotta move on.

But, that is what i have been saying, he's an idiot, just slightly less of one than committing hate speech. I still say his manage should smack him upside the head.

[New Babylonia]

Perhaps one day. The world is at least changing. Whether any of us will be around for that, we can only hope. One day, though, assholes like this will be the exception, and not the rule. Which is good. Just gotta keep working for that better future.

There will NEVER be no transphobia. Ever. However, as transgender rights catch up with sexuality based rights, comments like this will heavily be shamed, as they should be.

I meant, like expecting it. Hetero people don't expect to be talked to that way about it, for example. My hope is one day, trans people can say the same for themselves. I'm probably just being wishful here, oh well.

People are always gonna hate, of course. Can't stop that. There's heterophobia even. People hate everything, don't know why.

[Ifreann]

Perhaps one day. The world is at least changing. Whether any of us will be around for that, we can only hope. One day, though, assholes like this will be the exception, and not the rule. Which is good. Just gotta keep working for that better future.

There will NEVER be no transphobia...

Pfft, not with that kind of attitude.

[Replevion]

Though I want to preface this by saying I'm not trying to question whether you're "trans enough" or other such gatekeeping nonsense, I do have to wonder if you, being somebody who is genderfluid and explicitly says that any pronoun is fine, truly understand what it's like for people for whom any pronoun is not fine. I have nothing but respect for non-binary people, but your experiences and struggles are not a one to one correlation with binary trans people, and in that context please don't speak for us on matters where our preferences and goals diverge. I certainly don't and won't when things are the other way around.

I happen to have such a girl in my CTE campus, actually. Thankfully, the students that get transported there are pretty tolerable, and don't seem to mind. I've only heard her called male a few times, and each time you could see visibly the discomfort before it was quickly corrected.

I personally do not get that bothered by it (often anyway, on rare occasions i do feel one strong enough to request specifics be used), but i do personally know someone who does. And even i slip it up sometimes, to which i feel like an incredible asshole. People in her actual class have seen her almost in tears, and knew immediately what it was, shortly after she arrived. I'm happy not to have seen this, or i would probably have been crying too. The good news is, CTE campus is tolerant, home schools aren't.

Direct personal experience of feeling irritated by a pronoun used on me. Very very very very rarely. Experience with a personal friend who does care, i do have that. Unfortunately we do not attend the same home school, or i would certainly be correcting people left and right with increasing attitude. That's the real life friend, i know others on the internet, but real life is a better example.

Not saying Drake wasn't an asshole. He was. Was it necessarily hate speech? Not quite. Infact, to my knowledge, you can be prosecuted for hate speech in the US, so i would think if it was mr Bell would have some legal issues at hand right now. Still shouldn't have done it, Caitlyn certainly didn't enjoying hearing it (given fact), and his manager should smack upside the head like Gibs does for being an insensitive tard.

About the worst i've had from genderfluifity is having a once close friend find out, who completely flipped shit and decided i was some horrific demonic disgrace to human existence, and made it very clear they felt this way, to the point of even condoning violence. That's he best example of personal experience i have for you. Crying for three days over being intensely hated and betrayed by a close friend over me being me, is not fun. From my friend, and my own little story, i can imagine that Caitlyn, who has likely seen or heard about it, felt very good either - from Drake and other news outlets.

So, i hope that is good enough justification of experience and knowledge on my part for you. If not, nothing i can do about that.

That being hate said, hate speech is categorized and defined by being meant to condone or promote violence, or intentionally voice extreme prejudice. Drake simply was doing neither. He's still a massive cock, of course.

"Hate speech" is not illegal in the US, thank Raptor Jesus, precisely because it's easy to cast too wide a net and curb legitimate discourse and differences of opinion. One person's disagreement is often another person's "hate speech". However, especially since there's no legal definition of "hate speech" here in the US, we're free to levy that criticism arbitrarily as a method of social-cultural shaming. Personally I don't think Drake's ill-conceived comment was motivated by hate, so it doesn't rise to my personal standard, but since a personal standard is all there is in this country it may indeed qualify as hate speech to another person.

I'm not asking you to justify yourself to me, which I hoped to make clear in what I originally said, but will underscore as much as possible. It does indeed sound like you understand, even if your experience is largely by proxy, but just be careful who you speak for and how. I try to avoid making pronouncements for GF/GQ people precisely because my understanding of them and their situation is oblique, even though I similarly have non-binary friends. We're all trans, and we can, should, and do help each other, and if nobody else is around we should indeed try to be good representatives and advocates for segments of the trans* umbrella that we personally don't fall into, but when the issue is one that affects others of a different subcategory and they're there and explaining the matter, support, don't undermine. For instance, I know especially in the LGBT world there's a lot of effort to surface and keep focused on the struggle of people of color within the community, and even though a lot of us are white as fuck it often falls for us to represent those interests to other people, but when you're standing right next to a black lesbian (e.g.), you should let her speak for herself.

I wish there were a way I could convey this so it doesn't sound so much like I'm calling you out. It's really not what I'm trying to do. You're doing a good thing and trying to help, and by no means am I the grand judge of what's right and wrong about trans advocacy, but I just want you to think about it and be mindful, nothing more.

[Beautiful Transgender People]

There will NEVER be no transphobia. Ever. However, as transgender rights catch up with sexuality based rights, comments like this will heavily be shamed, as they should be.

I meant, like expecting it. Hetero people don't expect to be talked to that way about it, for example. My hope is one day, trans people can say the same for themselves. I'm probably just being wishful here, oh well.

People are always gonna hate, of course. Can't stop that. There's heterophobia even. People hate everything, don't know why.

Of course. Some transgender people can't actually be distinguished from cisgender people. I think it's better to strive that we get the technology that means that all transgender people can pass as "normal" people, though eliminating widespread transphobia is also important. Unfortunately for Caitlyn, due to her fame, she'll always receive some degree of transphobic abuse. But having people like her and Laura Jane Grace especially, it's good for progress.

[Souseiseki]

So, like the other transgender people in this thread, i have to ask.

How is this hate speech?

Pro: Racialism, Linguistic Purity, Free Markets, Scandinavia, Christianity.
Anti: Islam, Africa, Political Correctness, Multiculturalism.

does that answer your question?

[Teemant]

I don't want to judge anyone but I don't find changing gender to be a good thing.

Gender ain't the thing being changed.

I think there is a difference between man and woman.