Caitlyn Jenner: The Reveal & The Reactions

[Benian Republic]

I know but some thing I belive in make me feel horrible.

Why do they make you feel horrible?

Because sometimes people call me a fanatic and after a while I feel like I am.
But this particular opinon makes me feel like I'm being horribly rude to transgender people.

[Ardoki]

Why - however?

I'm genuinely curious - how does the sex they had before, cause any problems for you? Sleeping with them doesn't make you homosexual

Sorry if this makes me trans-phobe, but I would probably not have sexual intercourse with someone that used to be a guy, it's just not something I'd do however I don't care if others do it.

It's just the thought that there used to be a willy there.

I'm a bisexual. So I wouldn't care.

[Mavrosia]

Drake Bell, from the beloved tv show, Drake and Josh turns out to be transphobic cis scum!!!

So, we all know that Caitlyn Jenner, a beautiful woman and former athlete, has been a woman for some time now. Drake Bell, a rabid, bitter transphobe tweeted "I'm still calling you Bruce." My response to that is how fucking dare he!

Caitlyn is a beautiful woman, one who was never truly a man, a woman who is free. Free from herself, free from societal bigotry, and free of a penis, apparently. How dare Drake suggest that someone who wanted to be a woman should still be called Bruce???!!!

I, as an unrepentant fighter for equality, am putting my foot down. Clearly, we must boycott Drake and Josh, boycott any perfume ads starring Drake, and perhaps send him to court for his vicious hate speech. The media seems to largely agree with me.

Mod Edit: Merged threads and edited title

I agree, he should have all his money confiscated, and be put in jail for a very long time; all under improved hate speech laws.

Please tell me that's sarcasm...

[Benian Republic]

Sorry if this makes me trans-phobe, but I would probably not have sexual intercourse with someone that used to be a guy, it's just not something I'd do however I don't care if others do it.

It's just the thought that there used to be a willy there.

I'm a bisexual. So I wouldn't care.

That life seems a bit more fun and more carefree, sorry if that isn't true.

[Ardoki]

I agree, he should have all his money confiscated, and be put in jail for a very long time; all under improved hate speech laws.

Please tell me that's sarcasm...

That was my moderated opinion. I would preferably want him sent to a psychiatric facility, where he can learn a little bit of tolerance.

[Ardoki]

I'm a bisexual. So I wouldn't care.

That life seems a bit more fun and more carefree, sorry if that isn't true.

I don't see why you should be sorry for me.

But okay.

[Master Shake]

I'm a bisexual. So I wouldn't care.

That life seems a bit more fun and more carefree, sorry if that isn't true.

It is a magical life!

[Mavrosia]

Please tell me that's sarcasm...

That was my moderated opinion. I would preferably want him sent to a psychiatric facility, where he can learn a little bit of tolerance.

All opinions must be respected, hate speech or no, just because he doesn't agree doesn't make him mental.

[Grenartia]

Please tell me that's sarcasm...

That was my moderated opinion. I would preferably want him sent to a psychiatric facility, where he can learn a little bit of tolerance.

And I should point out, no person who is trans has actually shared those sentiments. Pretty telling, if you ask me.

[Geanna]

Why do they make you feel horrible?

Because sometimes people call me a fanatic and after a while I feel like I am.
But this particular opinon makes me feel like I'm being horribly rude to transgender people.

You can still have the opinion; but be respectful of someone. Case in point - I've not called you anything detestable; I wouldn't anyway, that'd be pointless.

Despite arguments, and individuals on both sides - differences in opinion, shouldn't completely mean you're detestable, or a bad person. If you met a Transgender person, and knew they were - would it necessarily harm you to respect their request? It isn't necessarily permanent.

Life's too short to take anything seriously; afterall, no-one gets out alive

Take - for example, I was friends with a Nazi on here. I found his beliefs utterly horrible - but despite that, he was highly respectful of my political beliefs, and I his - and we routinely argued and bickered until we were blue in the face in threads. In IM - and IRC, we chatted frequently to the point you really couldn't doubt that we were close. He thought my beliefs were the nonsensical ramblings of an apathetic, clashful, yet strange conformist.

My objectivism irritated him - and his radicalism irritated me.

Now - if it really bothers you, perhaps read about it some, and keep an open-mind. Abandon all of your opinions until you've gained quite the experience of both sides, my thread for example in my signature can give you all the info you need on this side of the boundary. Mind you - I've not the intention of changing your beliefs, I dislike proselytising. However - you may gain a slightly different perspective at least, and that's not a bad thing.

[Imperial Esplanade]

And just what the hell do you think that perhaps such treatment might not be as safe and harmless as you might believe it to be means?
I'm not claiming to know something everyone else doesn't, I'm just slightly skeptical of the idea such a physiologically drastic operation is as harmless as we believe it to be today. THAT is my point, NOTHING having to do with anything else you're bringing up - that's all entirely irrelevant.

Oh, for fuck's sake... No one's saying it's harmless. It's surgery and hormones. Of course there are going to be very serious risks! Surgery is literally opening wounds into the body - often quite fatal to other animals and occasionally fatal to us even in a therapeutic context - and hormones alter body chemistry - which is also potentially lethal even in a therapeutic context. Still safer than allowing someone with dysphoria to continue with it.

Indeed. Considering the only other alternative: "praying it away" and "letting it be without intervention"; have absolutely horrendous records (one need only look at Leelah Alcorn's tragedy), I think we can all (at least those of us who are actually reasonable) agree that transition is best for people with dysphoria.[/quote]

http://www.lauras-playground.com/alt_surgery.htm

I literally just did a quick Google search, and the first link I found was that of people one can talk to and discuss these things with - counselors who will do far more than just simply 'praying it away' and yada, yada, yada.

So, no. There actually are other alternatives out there. I found one in about five seconds. This isn't an all-or-nothing ordeal. For starters, the most important thing someone can do is just simply building up someone's self-esteem - regardless of their situation. I struggle with depression, which I do understand is comparing apples to oranges here... but as someone who deals with a mental ailment, I believe that really for the sake of everyone involved in these things (especially the one seeking the operation), an operation should be sought as a final option after all other options have been exhausted. I have yet to hear of any such thing in regards to the Jenner situation.

[Atomic Utopia]

Well I hope she does not experience too much criticism for her decision to undergo surgery. However, I do believe that those people who criticize her, while reprehensible, should be allowed to criticize her because not doing so would be against the tenant of free speech. Remember, free speech does not mean "you are free to speak your mind as long as I approve of what you say".

[Geanna]

Oh, for fuck's sake... No one's saying it's harmless. It's surgery and hormones. Of course there are going to be very serious risks! Surgery is literally opening wounds into the body - often quite fatal to other animals and occasionally fatal to us even in a therapeutic context - and hormones alter body chemistry - which is also potentially lethal even in a therapeutic context. Still safer than allowing someone with dysphoria to continue with it.

Indeed. Considering the only other alternative: "praying it away" and "letting it be without intervention"; have absolutely horrendous records (one need only look at Leelah Alcorn's tragedy), I think we can all (at least those of us who are actually reasonable) agree that transition is best for people with dysphoria.

http://www.lauras-playground.com/alt_surgery.htm

I literally just did a quick Google search, and the first link I found was that of people one can talk to and discuss these things with - counselors who will do far more than just simply 'praying it away' and yada, yada, yada.

So, no. There actually are other alternatives out there. I found one in about five seconds. This isn't an all-or-nothing ordeal. For starters, the most important thing someone can do is just simply building up someone's self-esteem - regardless of their situation. I struggle with depression, which I do understand is comparing apples to oranges here... but as someone who deals with a mental ailment, I believe that really for the sake of everyone involved in these things (especially the one seeking the operation), an operation should be sought as a final option after all other options have been exhausted. I have yet to hear of any such thing in regards to the Jenner situation.[/quote]

That's how it works hun.

[Imperial Esplanade]

You raise good points. The reactionary treatments and movements, which I'm talking about the less bigoted-oriented things than just 'praying the gay away' and whatnot, are more or less just as well-intended as any. That said, whether they're effective and healthy is an entirely different thing. I agree that allowing these sort of things is a good sign of greater open-mindedness, but I'm talking about life beyond the surgery. Thankfully, yes you're right that we have people who are furiously studying this very thing and establishing a framework to perform a safe procedure, but it's still very untraveled territory and we don't know what we don't know. We're not talking about a normal surgery here, we're talking about changing sexes which potentially may have adverse effects - especially further down the road. So, in short, there's reason to be optimistic, but we're truly pioneering here and a lot could change the more we learn about this. I'm just saying that until we do, it's not exactly wise to glorify and encourage this sort of thing for the well-being of everyone involved. By all means, allow them to - just don't encourage it and glorify it like what the media is practically doing.

Uhm, we've been doing SRS since the 30s. Not quite as untraveled as you think.

(Last post for tonight - going to bed after this. Have a good night, everybody. Hope to get back to this thread soon.)

Yet, it hasn't really been extensively studied since the early 2000's
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... statistics

So, it really is relatively quite untraveled territory in the medical and scientific community.

[Luminesa]

Please tell me that's sarcasm...

That was my moderated opinion. I would preferably want him sent to a psychiatric facility, where he can learn a little bit of tolerance.

That's really unnecessary. Again, it's not like he went and spray-painted "God hates gays" or something awful like that, and then posted it to social media. If you read the rest of the article, he said he was calling Jenner "Bruce" out of respect for Jenner's former career as an athlete, not a political statement or something. If Drew Brees were to change his name or something, I would still call him Drew Brees...because...well...Drew Brees is awesome. But I digress.

[Cannabis Islands]

That was my moderated opinion. I would preferably want him sent to a psychiatric facility, where he can learn a little bit of tolerance.

That's really unnecessary. Again, it's not like he went and spray-painted "God hates gays" or something awful like that, and then posted it to social media. If you read the rest of the article, he said he was calling Jenner "Bruce" out of respect for Jenner's former career as an athlete, not a political statement or something. If Drew Brees were to change his name or something, I would still call him Drew Brees...because...well...Drew Brees is awesome. But I digress.

However, Caitlyn has stated she wanted to be called Caitlyn. For example, when I was called a Traditionalist Catholic, I called myself a "Papist" as point of pride, but when I used it jokingly with other Catholics that I know, some were offended and asked me to stop, and I respected their request.

[Ardoki]

That was my moderated opinion. I would preferably want him sent to a psychiatric facility, where he can learn a little bit of tolerance.

That's really unnecessary. Again, it's not like he went and spray-painted "God hates gays" or something awful like that, and then posted it to social media. If you read the rest of the article, he said he was calling Jenner "Bruce" out of respect for Jenner's former career as an athlete, not a political statement or something. If Drew Brees were to change his name or something, I would still call him Drew Brees...because...well...Drew Brees is awesome. But I digress.

He was being intolerant. If the education doesn't indoctrinate children with masses enough, they must learn tolerance elsewhere (a psychiatric facility is a good place, as we needn't create dedicated tolerance centres).

Even casual racism, leads to nazism.

[Luminesa]

That's really unnecessary. Again, it's not like he went and spray-painted "God hates gays" or something awful like that, and then posted it to social media. If you read the rest of the article, he said he was calling Jenner "Bruce" out of respect for Jenner's former career as an athlete, not a political statement or something. If Drew Brees were to change his name or something, I would still call him Drew Brees...because...well...Drew Brees is awesome. But I digress.

He was being intolerant. If the education doesn't indoctrinate children with masses enough, they must learn tolerance elsewhere (a psychiatric facility is a good place, as we needn't create dedicated tolerance centres).

Even casual racism, leads to nazism.

I agree with the last part. I actually remember my history teacher saying something like that about racism. Which is why I hate when people use the n-word and other such terms.

However, I think Drake Bell's comment was not meant to be taken as an offense comment. The media has blown this way out of proportion, he never meant to insult Jenner or to be intolerant/bigoted/hateful/etc. Like I posted earlier, it wasn't like he went and actually said something hateful, like that dude who used to own the LA Clippers, until he was dumb enough to say on social media that he didn't like black people.

[Roman Superiority]

Bruce “not Caitlyn" Jenner is a man.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Bruce “not Caitlyn" Jenner is a man.

I saw a picture... Didn't look very manly.

[Master Shake]

Bruce “not Caitlyn" Jenner is a man.

Half a million dollars later...she is a she and is actually quite hot for a woman who is pushing 60s or however old she is...

[Anywhere Else But Here]

Uhm, we've been doing SRS since the 30s. Not quite as untraveled as you think.

(Last post for tonight - going to bed after this. Have a good night, everybody. Hope to get back to this thread soon.)

Yet, it hasn't really been extensively studied since the early 2000's
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... statistics

So, it really is relatively quite untraveled territory in the medical and scientific community.

Just...no. Did you look at your link? It's about intersex surgeries, not SRS for trans people.
As Gren said, the first reassignments were in the 30s, and we have yet to note ill effects. For comparison, heart transplants have only been done since 1967. Should we stop encouraging and glorifying heart transplants?

[Luminesa]

(Last post for tonight - going to bed after this. Have a good night, everybody. Hope to get back to this thread soon.)

Yet, it hasn't really been extensively studied since the early 2000's
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... statistics

So, it really is relatively quite untraveled territory in the medical and scientific community.

Just...no. Did you look at your link? It's about intersex surgeries, not SRS for trans people.
As Gren said, the first reassignments were in the 30s, and we have yet to note ill effects. For comparison, heart transplants have only been done since 1967. Should we stop encouraging and glorifying heart transplants?

Heart transplants are indeed quite successful! Now, as for gender-reassignment surgeries...here's an interesting article I am leaving to ya'll, before I go to sleep and charge my computer.

http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/04/14905/

Written by a guy who himself underwent gender-reassignment surgery. It has plenty of history and scientific evidence to back up the statement.

As for myself, I do feel sorry for Jenner, as the pressure society has put on one's sexuality is unprecedented, and I have a bad feeling about his/her sex change.

Also, question of logic: How is one's gender fluid but one's sexuality incapable of changing?

Night!

[Anywhere Else But Here]

Just...no. Did you look at your link? It's about intersex surgeries, not SRS for trans people.
As Gren said, the first reassignments were in the 30s, and we have yet to note ill effects. For comparison, heart transplants have only been done since 1967. Should we stop encouraging and glorifying heart transplants?

Heart transplants are indeed quite successful! Now, as for gender-reassignment surgeries...here's an interesting article I am leaving to ya'll, before I go to sleep and charge my computer.

http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/04/14905/

Written by a guy who himself underwent gender-reassignment surgery. It has plenty of history and scientific evidence to back up the statement.

As for myself, I do feel sorry for Jenner, as the pressure society has put on one's sexuality is unprecedented, and I have a bad feeling about his/her sex change.

Also, question of logic: How is one's gender fluid but one's sexuality incapable of changing?

Night!

Here's a list of things wrong with this:
1. Cherry-picking-you've found one person who regrets their transition, ignoring the fact that the vast majority do not.
2. Article uses association fallacies (talking about paedophilia etc)
3. Suicide rate is decreased by transition, not increased, the author is either spectacularly stupid or lying.
4. Claims the first sex reassignment surgeries were in the '50s, again not true.
5. Jenner's transition has nothing to do with her sexuality or public pressure.
6. Heart transplants are very effective, but they are not only a more recent development than SRS but also have more risks associated with them.

Just because you found an article (from a conservative think tank) that confirms your prejudices doesn't mean it's right. You claimed it had "plenty of scientific evidence". It has none, it alludes to (but doesn't link) two decades-old studies that I can't find (in fact the top result when I look for the studies using google is this article).

Here's some actual evidence for you to ignore:
http://transascity.org/quality-of-life- ... nssexuals/

[Argentiina]

Says it all.