Caitlyn Jenner: The Reveal & The Reactions

[Dumb Ideologies]

No, that's what you're saying.
I pointed out that is a very important factor, but a vagina it's not enough to define a woman.
Lack of male privilege is even more important, in example.



Source?
I wish to see these enlightened psychologists who said that having a vagina is totally unrelated to being a woman

oh can you just give us a definition of a woman already?

also do you consider transmen to be men or women lol?

Unicorns, probably.

[Chessmistress]

No, that's what you're saying.
I pointed out that is a very important factor, but a vagina it's not enough to define a woman.
Lack of male privilege is even more important, in example.



Source?
I wish to see these enlightened psychologists who said that having a vagina is totally unrelated to being a woman

oh can you just give us a definition of a woman already?

also do you consider transmen to be men or women lol?

I think that every person is the only one allowed to define herself/himself.
But that doesn't mean other persons should accept her/his definition without criticism or opposition when it comes to issues regarding all people: in other words everybody should and must be able to define herself/himself as s/he please, but access to women's safe spaces is just another issue: it's not a strictly personal matter because it involves many other persons.

[Souseiseki]

oh can you just give us a definition of a woman already?

also do you consider transmen to be men or women lol?

I think that every person is the only one allowed to define herself/himself.
But that doesn't mean other persons should accept her/his definition without criticism or opposition when it comes to issues regarding all people: in other words everybody should and must be able to define herself/himself as s/he please, but access to women's safe spaces is just another issue: it's not a strictly personal matter because it involves many other persons.

in order for there to be women's safe spaces there must be a generally agreed upon definition of women, one with which you agree with or mostly agree with. what is it?

[Marselesk]

I'm having a hard time seeing the awful part here.

[Dumb Ideologies]

I think that every person is the only one allowed to define herself/himself.
But that doesn't mean other persons should accept her/his definition without criticism or opposition when it comes to issues regarding all people: in other words everybody should and must be able to define herself/himself as s/he please, but access to women's safe spaces is just another issue: it's not a strictly personal matter because it involves many other persons.

in order for there to be women's safe spaces there must be a generally agreed upon definition of women, one with which you agree with or mostly agree with. what is it?

Those without THE INFAMOUS T no doubt.

[Dumb Ideologies]

oh can you just give us a definition of a woman already?

also do you consider transmen to be men or women lol?

I think that every person is the only one allowed to define herself/himself.
But that doesn't mean other persons should accept her/his definition without criticism or opposition when it comes to issues regarding all people: in other words everybody should and must be able to define herself/himself as s/he please, but access to women's safe spaces is just another issue: it's not a strictly personal matter because it involves many other persons.

Given that TERFs are a small marginal group who openly stress the need to exclude a section of vulnerable self-defining women, would it not be best to exclude TERFs from women's spaces for the sake of unity and safety?

[The Nuclear Fist]

in order for there to be women's safe spaces there must be a generally agreed upon definition of women, one with which you agree with or mostly agree with. what is it?

Those without THE INFAMOUS T no doubt.

'The Infamous T' is a pretty great name for a rapper. How's your rap game, DI? How hot do you spit it?

[Dumb Ideologies]

Those without THE INFAMOUS T no doubt.

'The Infamous T' is a pretty great name for a rapper. How's your rap game, DI? How hot do you spit it?

My flow once reduced a run-down community centre on the wrong side of town to a pit of burning plasma. Since then my rhyming technique is sealed.

[Tsaraine]

Those without THE INFAMOUS T no doubt.

'The Infamous T' is a pretty great name for a rapper. How's your rap game, DI? How hot do you spit it?

Damn, man. Now I really want to see a transgender rap activist. And I'm not even into rap.

[Bruchet]

1: He's going back and picking out the long-outdated posts and putting them against me long after I've explained what they mean, choosing to ignore my actual argument in favor of the lead-up questions. If that isn't bigotry, I don't know what is.

2: Again, I've answered this before.

First, I'm not a "he". Neither am I a "she". I am a they. inb4 "not grammatically correct", singular they is a totally legitimate thing, and has legitimate contemporary and historical usage, to say nothing of the fact that "it" is dehumanizing. Second, I'm not "going back and picking out long-outdated posts". I'm reading through the thread from when I last was online. However, this thread is moving faster than I can respond, thus, I am perpetually several pages behind.

So, shut it with your persecution complex.

I don't want to take sides here, but "he" can be used gender-neutrally. Same as "you guys". It is, for the most part, used on the internet when identity is unknown.

[Chessmistress]

I think that every person is the only one allowed to define herself/himself.
But that doesn't mean other persons should accept her/his definition without criticism or opposition when it comes to issues regarding all people: in other words everybody should and must be able to define herself/himself as s/he please, but access to women's safe spaces is just another issue: it's not a strictly personal matter because it involves many other persons.

Given that TERFs are a small marginal group who openly stress the need to exclude a section of vulnerable self-defining women, would it not be best to exclude TERFs from women's spaces for the sake of unity and safety?

I would really like to see a similar proposal, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be glad about the real final outcomes: TERFs are for sure just only a small marginal group within the whole feminist movement, but not so marginal within Radical Feminism. Most Radical Feminists do not self-declare TERF but many...if enforced to make a precise choice...

in order for there to be women's safe spaces there must be a generally agreed upon definition of women, one with which you agree with or mostly agree with. what is it?

I already said the most important feature that define a woman is the total lack of male privilege. That's unrelated with biology, of course.

[Crimiea]

I never really understand the whole outrage over this.

Is your house burning down or the apocalypse happening because someone prefers to be called Caitlyn over Bruce? No? Then shut up about it as it has no effect on you whatsoever.

[Grenartia]

Eeyup. Sorry Yum spent so much time on his response, but it is very informative, so hopefully other folks will reap the benefit at least.

No big deal. It's better than the times that I've put serious time and effort into crafting a detailed post, only to find when I hit "enter" that the thing was locked while I was in the middle of composing it.

Oh my fucking godless heathens, I hate when that happens.

[Grenartia]

So, what you're saying is, women are defined by vaginas. That's pretty misogynist.

1. No, that's what you're saying.
2. I pointed out that is a very important factor, but a vagina it's not enough to define a woman.
3. Lack of male privilege is even more important, in example.

Not according to psychology.

4. Source?
I wish to see these enlightened psychologists who said that having a vagina is totally unrelated to being a woman

1. No, its the antithesis of what I'm saying.
2. Its hardly important at all.
3. NEWSFLASH: Transwomen have no male privilege. As soon as you come out and start transitioning, any male privilege you have gets revoked.
4. http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx

[Grenartia]

oh can you just give us a definition of a woman already?

also do you consider transmen to be men or women lol?

I think that every person is the only one allowed to define herself/himself.
But that doesn't mean other persons should accept her/his definition without criticism or opposition when it comes to issues regarding all people: in other words everybody should and must be able to define herself/himself as s/he please, but access to women's safe spaces is just another issue: it's not a strictly personal matter because it involves many other persons.

In practice, that's not something that happens often enough to be a real issue.

In practice, since males will suffer more and more more and more true equality will be approached, that's VERY LIKELY to happen more and more in the future. Do you wish to see males with beards and muscles, dressed as males, joining women's only spaces just only because they say "I feel I'm a woman"?

Does this guy look like he belongs in a woman's restroom? Protip: he was born with a vagina.

Does this lady look like she belongs in a men's restroom? Doesn't she seem like she's at a pretty high risk of being raped in that bathroom?

Behold, the consequences of your biological essentialism.

[Grenartia]

I think that every person is the only one allowed to define herself/himself.
But that doesn't mean other persons should accept her/his definition without criticism or opposition when it comes to issues regarding all people: in other words everybody should and must be able to define herself/himself as s/he please, but access to women's safe spaces is just another issue: it's not a strictly personal matter because it involves many other persons.

Given that TERFs are a small marginal group who openly stress the need to exclude a section of vulnerable self-defining women, would it not be best to exclude TERFs from women's spaces for the sake of unity and safety?

Like that thing from South Park where they made a restroom for people who can't stand the thought of sharing a bathroom with trans people?

[Grenartia]

'The Infamous T' is a pretty great name for a rapper. How's your rap game, DI? How hot do you spit it?

Damn, man. Now I really want to see a transgender rap activist. And I'm not even into rap.

If I ever get good at rap, I'd totally use that name.

[Grenartia]

First, I'm not a "he". Neither am I a "she". I am a they. inb4 "not grammatically correct", singular they is a totally legitimate thing, and has legitimate contemporary and historical usage, to say nothing of the fact that "it" is dehumanizing. Second, I'm not "going back and picking out long-outdated posts". I'm reading through the thread from when I last was online. However, this thread is moving faster than I can respond, thus, I am perpetually several pages behind.

So, shut it with your persecution complex.

I don't want to take sides here, but "he" can be used gender-neutrally. Same as "you guys". It is, for the most part, used on the internet when identity is unknown.

No, "he" can't, since it is literally indistinguishable from the masculine "he".

[Grenartia]

I never really understand the whole outrage over this.

Is your house burning down or the apocalypse happening because someone prefers to be called Caitlyn over Bruce? No? Then shut up about it as it has no effect on you whatsoever.

Well, considering Caitlyn's visibility is being used to shine a light on issues affecting the trans community, a community which faces constant threats to our very existence on a daily basis, its arguable that Caitlyn's visibility is saving lives.

[Chessmistress]

1. No, that's what you're saying.
2. I pointed out that is a very important factor, but a vagina it's not enough to define a woman.
3. Lack of male privilege is even more important, in example.



4. Source?
I wish to see these enlightened psychologists who said that having a vagina is totally unrelated to being a woman

1. No, its the antithesis of what I'm saying.
2. Its hardly important at all.
3. NEWSFLASH: Transwomen have no male privilege. As soon as you come out and start transitioning, any male privilege you have gets revoked.
4. http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx

1. You are the one who inflated my idea of "having a vagina is part of being woman" to "vagina defines a woman".
2. That's your opinion, mine is different.
3. NEWSFLASH: as soon as you don't fully transition, you retain male features, and that's not all about that matter.

I think that's a more balanced approach to the issue
http://www.femininebyte.org/sapphos_par ... speaks.htm

We don’t know what it’s like to grow up as a girl in a male dominated society, we’ll never experience women’s puberty and menopause, we can’t conjure up the social experience of growing up female, or know what it’s like to bleed….. Of course we can approximate the physical shape and we may well consider that, inside, we feel the same as born-women feel. But, demonstrably – and however much we may wish otherwise – we cannot be the same. If we can learn to respect this difference openly – then we can embrace the solution that it offers.

[Grenartia]

1. No, its the antithesis of what I'm saying.
2. Its hardly important at all.
3. NEWSFLASH: Transwomen have no male privilege. As soon as you come out and start transitioning, any male privilege you have gets revoked.
4. http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx

1. You are the one who inflated my idea of "having a vagina is part of being woman" to "vagina defines a woman".
2. That's your opinion, mine is different.
3. NEWSFLASH: as soon as you don't fully transition, you retain male features, and that's not all about that matter.

I think that's a more balanced approach to the issue
http://www.femininebyte.org/sapphos_par ... speaks.htm

We don’t know what it’s like to grow up as a girl in a male dominated society, we’ll never experience women’s puberty and menopause, we can’t conjure up the social experience of growing up female, or know what it’s like to bleed….. Of course we can approximate the physical shape and we may well consider that, inside, we feel the same as born-women feel. But, demonstrably – and however much we may wish otherwise – we cannot be the same. If we can learn to respect this difference openly – then we can embrace the solution that it offers.

1. Considering that's the logical progression of your statement...

2. And your opinion is wrong.

3. "Male features" don't grant you male privilege.

4. Except, you know, the transgirls who grow up as girls (Jazz Jennings comes to mind). And bleeding ain't at all the defining characteristic of being a woman.

[Fremskrittspartiet]

Uhm... One can have "male features" even if you have a vagina or a penis. I personally have vagina, but I still kind off look like "boyish". Having ""male features"" does not give you male privelige.

[Zottistan]

I never really understand the whole outrage over this.

Is your house burning down or the apocalypse happening because someone prefers to be called Caitlyn over Bruce? No? Then shut up about it as it has no effect on you whatsoever.

Well, considering Caitlyn's visibility is being used to shine a light on issues affecting the trans community, a community which faces constant threats to our very existence on a daily basis, its arguable that Caitlyn's visibility is saving lives.

Is it, though? Genuinely asking, I don't keep up with US media. Over here, to the best of my knowledge, it's been treated like a tabloid thing with little reference to the trans community at large or their issues.

[Laanvia]

I really don't know why everyone is treating this guy as some sort of hero. I'm not a fan of transgenderism and this just makes me not like it even more. Other people deserve to be Heroes, just definitely not this fool.

[Crimiea]

I never really understand the whole outrage over this.

Is your house burning down or the apocalypse happening because someone prefers to be called Caitlyn over Bruce? No? Then shut up about it as it has no effect on you whatsoever.

Well, considering Caitlyn's visibility is being used to shine a light on issues affecting the trans community, a community which faces constant threats to our very existence on a daily basis, its arguable that Caitlyn's visibility is saving lives.

My post was worded towards the transphobic crowd (which I apologize for not wording it the way it's intended to be), which, as I said, have better things to be mad about than what one person does with their own life. I agree that her making the headline exposes some to the trans community, but I can't comment on whether or not she save lives. I am saying that we as a society should be apathetic towards other people's individual choices if it's not hurting anyone. Caitlyn's life is not hurting her neighbors, my life, nor any of our lives. That's why I do not understand the outrage from those that bash Caitlyn, because, honestly, who cares. The only reason why I care now is because I value the individual so much, I'm arguing against those that think they can determine how someone else should live according to another person's standards regardless of how it affects them.

Highlights:
- I apologize for not wording my post clearly.
- I find it amusing how some people have such boring lives that they bash someone whose life is not effecting them.
- Society, in order to be a more welcoming place, needs to be apathetic about how one live their lives as long as it's not hurting anyone (hurt feelings don't count).
- I'm sympathetic towards Caitlyn because she's being bashed for not doing anything, when really, we should shrug and move on.

I'm a bit drunk, and accidentally deleted portions of this post while editing some spellings, so, in advance, I'd like to apologize if I'm causing a hostile environment, post are incoherent, or wonky.