Caitlyn Jenner: The Reveal & The Reactions

[Grand Calvert]

He despised their iniquities equally.

None of which was homosexuality, only rape.

Jude 7 mentions that "...Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion." It was a lot of different things.

[Eastern Equestria]

Voluntarily giving does not make one a socialist. Forcefully taking from others and redistributing it does.

What about Jesus and his Free Universal Healthcare? Healing the sick and crippled without charging a co-pay has to be socialist.

Not really. There are plenty of capitalists who advocate for that (social democrats, social liberals, etc.)

[Geilinor]

None of which was homosexuality, only rape.

Jude 7 mentions that "...Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion." It was a lot of different things.

Homosexuality was not why they were destroyed, inhospitality to angels was.

[Boineburg]

I disagree, I think it interferes with typical function and that's plenty. It's troubling that in pursuing equality for some people we're stigmatizing the mentally ill.

By your standards, left-handedness is also a disorder.

I wasn't aware that favoring a specific hand over the other was hard-wired into every "normal" person's brain.

[Furry Alairia and Algeria]

None of which was homosexuality, only rape.

Jude 7 mentions that "...Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion." It was a lot of different things.

Another reference to unconsented sex, in other words rape. Jude did not specifically mention homosexuality.

And please stop making the bible say what you want it to say.

[Meryuma]

None of which was homosexuality, only rape.

Jude 7 mentions that "...Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion." It was a lot of different things.

If you're going to clobber people with homophobic Bible verses, at least pick verses that are actually homophobic. Sodom and Gomorrah has fuck all to do with consensual and affectionate sex between males, just as male/male sexuality has nothing to do with a woman coming out as trans.

[Furry Alairia and Algeria]

Jude 7 mentions that "...Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion." It was a lot of different things.

Homosexuality was not why they were destroyed, inhospitality to angels was.

And the attempted rape of the angels, along with everything listed in Luke 10: 10-13; Isaiah 19: 13-14; Jeremiah 23: 14; Ezekiel 16: 49; and Zephaniah 2: 8-11

[Grand Calvert]

Jude 7 mentions that "...Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion." It was a lot of different things.

Another reference to unconsented sex, in other words rape. Jude did not specifically mention homosexuality.

And please stop making the bible say what you want it to say.

The Bible mentions that angels look like men. Just look it up in Genesis, I guarantee it's there. If you are a man that is sexually attracted to men, that is homosexuality. Homosexuality was part of it.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

By your standards, left-handedness is also a disorder.

I wasn't aware that favoring a specific hand over the other was hard-wired into every "normal" person's brain.

To about the same degree that sexuality is hard-wired, yes. Approximately 10% of the people in the world are left-handed. This interferes with "typical function", as the world is largely set up for right-handed people.

[Furry Alairia and Algeria]

Another reference to unconsented sex, in other words rape. Jude did not specifically mention homosexuality.

And please stop making the bible say what you want it to say.

The Bible mentions that angels look like men. Just look it up in Genesis, I guarantee it's there. If you are a man that is sexually attracted to men, that is homosexuality. Homosexuality was part of it.

I am not here to look up your arguments. So far you've been a failure at arguing, and you've done nothing to convince anyone otherwise.

[Grenartia]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/medical/mental%20disorder

Ah, thank you! Exactly the one I used, too.

I made this for an Imgur comment awhile ago: http://i.imgur.com/qpMwOPZ.png

...a clinically significant behavioral or psychological syndrome or pattern that occurs in an individual and that is associated with present distress (e.g., a painful symptom) or disability (i.e., impairment in one or more important areas of functioning) or with a significantly increased risk of suffering death, pain, disability, or an important loss of freedom. In addition, this syndrome or pattern must not be merely an expectable and culturally sanctioned response to a particular event...

[Boineburg]

I wasn't aware that favoring a specific hand over the other was hard-wired into every "normal" person's brain.

To about the same degree that sexuality is hard-wired, yes. Approximately 10% of the people in the world are left-handed. This interferes with "typical function", as the world is largely set up for right-handed people.

This is a similar argument people make about homosexuals.

The Church says (rather, people claim the Church says) that homosexuality is wrong. And so, the world has grown to think badly about homosexuality.

But a left-handed person wouldn't care if they were left-handed if society didn't favor right-handed people.

[Grand Calvert]

The Bible mentions that angels look like men. Just look it up in Genesis, I guarantee it's there. If you are a man that is sexually attracted to men, that is homosexuality. Homosexuality was part of it.

I am not here to look up your arguments. So far you've been a failure at arguing, and you've done nothing to convince anyone otherwise.

Well...ok then.

[Grenartia]

Yeah, the idea that a woman HAS to have/want a vagina is inherently sexist and misogynist. It propogates a view of womanhood that holds that women are little more than walking vaginas.

Nothing more than a strawman: I think that if a person really feels "she" is a woman, then "she" should wish to have a vagina. Otherwise "she" doesn't really feels a woman. Pure logic. Otherwise even MALES with beard and muscles can say they're "women".
That's the main problem Radical Feminists like me have with trans persons.

So, what you're saying is, women are defined by vaginas. That's pretty misogynist.

[Counter Culture]

There is no historical context in which slavery is moral in 21st century lenses. It was widely accepted in the 1700s, much less like 600 BC

I don't care if it was widely accepted. Something being widely accepted does not make it moral.

Sort of does actually. Considering that the idea of morality is a societal construct? Yea, unless of course you'd like to take a religious perspective of morality...

[Des-Bal]

Just a question, and I promise you that it's not a setup, a trap, or a gotcha: Do you have any experience in the study of advanced psychology or its practice? I'd also like to see a source vis-a-vis the motivations for reclassification.

Sure, why not.

I don't have my databases and I think that might be screwing with my search for an actual justification for the removal but everything I'm pulling up is just a lot of talk about how important it is not to stigmatize people which sort of leads to stigmatizing every person classified as mentally ill.

http://www.dsm5.org/documents/gender%20 ... 0sheet.pdf

"DSM not only determines how mental disorders are defined and diagnosed, it also impacts how people
see themselves and how we see each other. While diagnostic terms facilitate clinical care and access to
insurance coverage that supports mental health, these terms can also have a stigmatizing effect.
DSM-5 aims to avoid stigma and ensure clinical care for individuals who see and feel themselves to be a
different gender than their assigned gender."

Note that's "ensure clinical care for individuals who see and feel themselves to be a different gender" not "ensure clinical care for individuals who have gender dysphoria." There's a clear belief in all the language used around this decision that transgender people need access to care but also that it's ever so stigmatizing to be a person in need of care.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

To about the same degree that sexuality is hard-wired, yes. Approximately 10% of the people in the world are left-handed. This interferes with "typical function", as the world is largely set up for right-handed people.

This is a similar argument people make about homosexuals.

The Church says (rather, people claim the Church says) that homosexuality is wrong. And so, the world has grown to think badly about homosexuality.

But a left-handed person wouldn't care if they were left-handed if society didn't favor right-handed people.

And gay people wouldn't care that they were gay if society didn't favor straight people.

[Boineburg]

Ah, thank you! Exactly the one I used, too.

I made this for an Imgur comment awhile ago: http://i.imgur.com/qpMwOPZ.png

...a clinically significant behavioral or psychological syndrome or pattern that occurs in an individual and that is associated with present distress (e.g., a painful symptom) or disability (i.e., impairment in one or more important areas of functioning) or with a significantly increased risk of suffering death, pain, disability, or an important loss of freedom. In addition, this syndrome or pattern must not be merely an expectable and culturally sanctioned response to a particular event...

AGAIN, with the cherrypicking! Only this time, you're cherrypicking from an article, not from my posts.

The first paragraph:

DSM-IV notes that “… although this manual provides a classification of mental disorders, it must be admitted that no definition adequately specifies precise boundaries for the concept of ‘mental disorder.’ The concept of mental disorder, like many other concepts in medicine and science, lacks a consistent operational definition that covers all situations. All medical conditions are defined on various levels of abstraction--for example, structural pathology (e.g., ulcerative colitis), symptom presentation (e.g., migraine), deviance from a physiological norm (e.g., hypertension), and etiology (e.g., pneumococcal pneumonia). Mental disorders have also been defined by a variety of concepts (e.g., distress, dyscontrol, disadvantage, disability, inflexibility, irrationality, syndromal pattern, etiology, and statistical deviation). Each is a useful indicator for a mental disorder, but none is equivalent to the concept, and different situations call for different definitions.”

Also, I can't spell "quote".

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Just a question, and I promise you that it's not a setup, a trap, or a gotcha: Do you have any experience in the study of advanced psychology or its practice? I'd also like to see a source vis-a-vis the motivations for reclassification.

Sure, why not.

I don't have my databases and I think that might be screwing with my search for an actual justification for the removal but everything I'm pulling up is just a lot of talk about how important it is not to stigmatize people which sort of leads to stigmatizing every person classified as mentally ill.

http://www.dsm5.org/documents/gender%20 ... 0sheet.pdf

"DSM not only determines how mental disorders are defined and diagnosed, it also impacts how people
see themselves and how we see each other. While diagnostic terms facilitate clinical care and access to
insurance coverage that supports mental health, these terms can also have a stigmatizing effect.
DSM-5 aims to avoid stigma and ensure clinical care for individuals who see and feel themselves to be a
different gender than their assigned gender."

Note that's "ensure clinical care for individuals who see and feel themselves to be a different gender" not "ensure clinical care for individuals who have gender dysphoria." There's a clear belief in all the language used around this decision that transgender people need access to care but also that it's ever so stigmatizing to be a person in need of care.

I don't interpret it that way at all. I see that line as recognizing that there is currently some stigma attached to receiving care, and communicating a desire to remove said stigma. I think that it's a losing battle, since people will hold fast to their bigotry in the face of shifting terminology, but it's at least a noble goal.

[Counter Culture]

Is beating someone for entertainment right and fair?

Is there any quote in the Bible suggesting it's not?

I zapped my wife with ancient alien technology, and had non consensual intercourse with her in a way that cannot actually be categorized as rape due to some weird justification, then I boarded an air line while only wearing my under garments. There's no law specifically tailored to these circumstances therefore the Government approves of this action.

[Des-Bal]

I don't interpret it that way at all. I see that line as recognizing that there is currently some stigma attached to receiving care, and communicating a desire to remove said stigma. I think that it's a losing battle, since people will hold fast to their bigotry in the face of shifting terminology, but it's at least a noble goal.

I don't think it's a noble goal at all because the way they're going about it smacks of freak table. Instead of saying the mentally ill are people and by and large not that much different than anyone else they're having people suffering from stigmatization helivaced out.

[Tierra Prime]

Jude 7 mentions that "...Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion." It was a lot of different things.

Another reference to unconsented sex, in other words rape. Jude did not specifically mention homosexuality.

And please stop making the bible say what you want it to say.

I think the bible talk is irrelevant to the thread at large.

Regardless of your position on transsexuality, nobody wants to go through such hell, and if it works for Jenner, isn't that good?

[Yumyumsuppertime]

I don't interpret it that way at all. I see that line as recognizing that there is currently some stigma attached to receiving care, and communicating a desire to remove said stigma. I think that it's a losing battle, since people will hold fast to their bigotry in the face of shifting terminology, but it's at least a noble goal.

I don't think it's a noble goal at all because the way they're going about it smacks of freak table. Instead of saying the mentally ill are people and by and large not that much different than anyone else they're having people suffering from stigmatization helivaced out.

I find your interpretation to be bizarre, but I suppose that's obvious. It's like you're looking to interpret that paragraph in the most negative way possible, and you're willing to twist meaning into knots in order to get there.

I suppose it's pointless to continue the discussion. Thank you for your time, though.

[Talvezout]

Could we go away from the debate on homosexuality/bible quoting and back to the topic on Caitlyn Jenner and her transition..?

/My dos pesos

[Terricon]

Nothing more than a strawman: I think that if a person really feels "she" is a woman, then "she" should wish to have a vagina. Otherwise "she" doesn't really feels a woman. Pure logic. Otherwise even MALES with beard and muscles can say they're "women".
That's the main problem Radical Feminists like me have with trans persons.

So, what you're saying is, women are defined by vaginas. That's pretty misogynist.

Biologically speaking, women are defined by this. To insist that having one is a way of life on the other hand is mysocignistic.