Feminism in decline

[Prussia-Steinbach]

To put it bluntly, you won't understand unless you understand the "slightly" different opinions. You don't have to read 20 books...more like 20 wikipedia articles, to get the gist of the differences.

Would you regard MRAs as a type of feminist?

If so, there's a lot more diversity in opinion than you're making out.
If not, on what basis, given the demand for equal rights?

(I would personally say no, they are not feminists, because they do not utilize a gynocentric perspective on gender issues.)

No, they aren't feminists, because they do not advocate for women's rights on the grounds of equality of the sexes.

MRAs, in my experience, seem to be guys that like making jokes about women in the kitchen. And that's about it.

[Ostroeuropa]

Would you regard MRAs as a type of feminist?

If so, there's a lot more diversity in opinion than you're making out.
If not, on what basis, given the demand for equal rights?

(I would personally say no, they are not feminists, because they do not utilize a gynocentric perspective on gender issues.)

No, they aren't feminists, because they do not advocate for women's rights on the grounds of equality of the sexes.

MRAs, in my experience, seem to be guys that like making jokes about women in the kitchen. And that's about it.

They advocate for mens rights on the grounds of equality of the sexes.
I'm glad we agree that feminism doesn't have a monopoly on gender egalitarianism, and isn't the forum to discuss mens issues.
You also seem to have no real experience of MRAs, given that they are opposed to traditional gender roles.

If all feminists could take your position on feminism, and stop pretending its the mens movement too, as well as stop belittling the MRA, we'd have no problem.

An MRA is more likely to want to be in the kitchen themselves than to want women in there. It tends to be viewed as degrading to men to have their role based around providing for a fully grown adult in order to be allowed in their presence, and to be treated like a utility or serf, and as dehumanizing and devaluing when their role revolves around protecting that adult. A man should not consider his life less valuable than a womans, and yet this is constantly reinforced by society.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

No, they aren't feminists, because they do not advocate for women's rights on the grounds of equality of the sexes.

MRAs, in my experience, seem to be guys that like making jokes about women in the kitchen. And that's about it.

They advocate for mens rights on the grounds of equality of the sexes.
I'm glad we agree that feminism doesn't have a monopoly on gender egalitarianism.

You also seem to have no real experience of MRAs, given that they are opposed to traditional gender roles.

First of all, I'd like to note I'm much calmer today, and will be trying to carry on a discussion that doesn't need to become as heated as it frequently does.

Now. Perhaps you're right. One of the most popular "Men's Rights" media sources I've seen has been this page. That isn't the only one, obviously, but it's one of the more prominent/popular. Their entire premise is essentially, continue gender roles, make jokes about women, and feminists are crazy cat ladies. So perhaps you could understand the confusion.

If the majority of MRAs advocate for the ending of gender roles, the closing of the wage gap, are against sexual harassment, etc, that's fantastic. I'm saddened they don't recognize that these things, for the most part, hurt women more than men, but as long as they aren't bashing feminists, they're fine I guess. They have the wrong premise. But I won't burn down their house or anything.

But if that's true, could you provide me with a couple of sources of this being the case? Just a Facebook page or something, some official group website, whatever.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

If all feminists could take your position on feminism, and stop pretending its the mens movement too, as well as stop belittling the MRA, we'd have no problem.

An MRA is more likely to want to be in the kitchen themselves than to want women in there. It tends to be viewed as degrading to men to have their role based around providing for a fully grown adult and treated like a utility, and as dehumanizing and devaluing when their role revolves around protecting that adult.

I will continue belittling the MRAs until I see some definitive proof most of them are not just guys that like making "women in the kitchen" jokes. Because that's been my view of them since... well, since I heard of them.

If this is the case, actual MRAs must be quite, quite, quite rare. Not to say they don't exist; just that they are either not vocal at all or are a tiny, tiny group of people.

Not to sound like a stereotype, but the patriarchy hurts men too. Not nearly as much as women; but men too. If MRAs are as you say they are, they should actually be firm allies of feminists, just focusing on different things. Hell, they should be feminists as well.

[Ostroeuropa]

They advocate for mens rights on the grounds of equality of the sexes.
I'm glad we agree that feminism doesn't have a monopoly on gender egalitarianism.

You also seem to have no real experience of MRAs, given that they are opposed to traditional gender roles.

First of all, I'd like to note I'm much calmer today, and will be trying to carry on a discussion that doesn't need to become as heated as it frequently does.

Now. Perhaps you're right. One of the most popular "Men's Rights" media sources I've seen has been this page. That isn't the only one, obviously, but it's one of the more prominent/popular. Their entire premise is essentially, continue gender roles, make jokes about women, and feminists are crazy cat ladies. So perhaps you could understand the confusion.

If the majority of MRAs advocate for the ending of gender roles, the closing of the wage gap, are against sexual harassment, etc, that's fantastic. I'm saddened they don't recognize that these things, for the most part, hurt women more than men, but as long as they aren't bashing feminists, they're fine I guess. They have the wrong premise. But I won't burn down their house or anything.

But if that's true, could you provide me with a couple of sources of this being the case? Just a Facebook page or something, some official group website, whatever.

I took one look.
It's a meninist page. That's a parody of feminism you realize, not the MRA.
The fact you seem to think it's sexist is pretty funny, considering you are a feminist. All meninist arguments are usually a gender swap of shit they've seen feminists say. It's an in-joke.

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/wiki/faq

The biggest hub of mens rights talk that i'm aware of.

Some example threads:
http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comm ... der_roles/
(Anti-gender roles is the popular viewpoint.)

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/

Cba to find more right now tbh.
You'll find a lot of anti-feminism threads from feminists dropping the ball so fucking hard on mens rights by refusing to consider the MRAs input on how they are harming men through their lobbying and activism due to gynocentricity.
You'll also find mens issues reported and discussed. (As the FAQ points out, because of feminism being a clusterfuck, it is a mens issue by default.)

[Ostroeuropa]

If all feminists could take your position on feminism, and stop pretending its the mens movement too, as well as stop belittling the MRA, we'd have no problem.

An MRA is more likely to want to be in the kitchen themselves than to want women in there. It tends to be viewed as degrading to men to have their role based around providing for a fully grown adult and treated like a utility, and as dehumanizing and devaluing when their role revolves around protecting that adult.

I will continue belittling the MRAs until I see some definitive proof most of them are not just guys that like making "women in the kitchen" jokes. Because that's been my view of them since... well, since I heard of them.

If this is the case, actual MRAs must be quite, quite, quite rare. Not to say they don't exist; just that they are either not vocal at all or are a tiny, tiny group of people.

Not to sound like a stereotype, but the patriarchy hurts men too. Not nearly as much as women; but men too. If MRAs are as you say they are, they should actually be firm allies of feminists, just focusing on different things. Hell, they should be feminists as well.

Yeh, you are basically being a stereotype there. Your "Patriarchy hates men too" shit has been talked over endlessly, and it's basically bullshit at this point. What you mean by patriarchy is gender roles which oppress both men and women in roughly proportional ways.
Calling it patriarchy is a sexist meme caused by feminism and it's gynocentric view of the problem, centered wholly around women.

In fact i've argued that the situation harms men more than it harms women.
Men occupy the overwhelming majority of victims of violence, homelessness, prison population, etc.
Women might have to put up with being middle class instead of upper class, but that's hardly "Oppression" compared to what men go through.
Rape stats are mostly equal, but men have a far tougher time being taken seriously on the issue.
Same for domestic violence and such.

No mate, see, the problem is, MRAs aren't that rare. What it is, is that feminists actively campaign against them whenever they try and get shit done, because feminists love to spread lies about the MRM due to their complete fucking ignorance of it and the fact it's an existential threat to feminist ideology. (So either ignorance or the ideological equivalent of a mid-life crisis when they realize they are wrong.)


Source on meninism being a parody of feminism:
http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comm ... /meninist/

[New Edom]

They advocate for mens rights on the grounds of equality of the sexes.
I'm glad we agree that feminism doesn't have a monopoly on gender egalitarianism.

You also seem to have no real experience of MRAs, given that they are opposed to traditional gender roles.

First of all, I'd like to note I'm much calmer today, and will be trying to carry on a discussion that doesn't need to become as heated as it frequently does.

Now. Perhaps you're right. One of the most popular "Men's Rights" media sources I've seen has been this page. That isn't the only one, obviously, but it's one of the more prominent/popular. Their entire premise is essentially, continue gender roles, make jokes about women, and feminists are crazy cat ladies. So perhaps you could understand the confusion.

If the majority of MRAs advocate for the ending of gender roles, the closing of the wage gap, are against sexual harassment, etc, that's fantastic. I'm saddened they don't recognize that these things, for the most part, hurt women more than men, but as long as they aren't bashing feminists, they're fine I guess. They have the wrong premise. But I won't burn down their house or anything.

But if that's true, could you provide me with a couple of sources of this being the case? Just a Facebook page or something, some official group website, whatever.

http://honeybadgerbrigade.com/

By the way, I'm glad you are doing better. I wish you'd read the two links I provided before and consider that it's possible that I'm not just making up the idea that prominent feminists dismiss concerns about abused men and boys and female abusers.

[Dumb Ideologies]

If all feminists could take your position on feminism, and stop pretending its the mens movement too, as well as stop belittling the MRA, we'd have no problem.

An MRA is more likely to want to be in the kitchen themselves than to want women in there. It tends to be viewed as degrading to men to have their role based around providing for a fully grown adult and treated like a utility, and as dehumanizing and devaluing when their role revolves around protecting that adult.

I will continue belittling the MRAs until I see some definitive proof most of them are not just guys that like making "women in the kitchen" jokes. Because that's been my view of them since... well, since I heard of them.

If this is the case, actual MRAs must be quite, quite, quite rare. Not to say they don't exist; just that they are either not vocal at all or are a tiny, tiny group of people.

Not to sound like a stereotype, but the patriarchy hurts men too. Not nearly as much as women; but men too. If MRAs are as you say they are, they should actually be firm allies of feminists, just focusing on different things. Hell, they should be feminists as well.

It does, but when MRAs try to bring up doing something about an issue impacting men to feminists they often get told that they aren't priority or even to check their privilege - that's not really the response of good allies.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

See, I'll admit I've never been that much of a calm and kind person while debating. But even after I let you know that I am intentionally trying to keep my cool today, you go on to say that everything I believe is bullshit, I'm wrong, fuck feminism, etc. So I'll be leaving. Call it a ragequit, admission of defeat, whatever. I leave this thread, remaining a radical feminist.

This is directed at Ostroeuropa, by the way. New Edom, for example, you've been fine.

[Ostroeuropa]

First of all, I'd like to note I'm much calmer today, and will be trying to carry on a discussion that doesn't need to become as heated as it frequently does.

Now. Perhaps you're right. One of the most popular "Men's Rights" media sources I've seen has been this page. That isn't the only one, obviously, but it's one of the more prominent/popular. Their entire premise is essentially, continue gender roles, make jokes about women, and feminists are crazy cat ladies. So perhaps you could understand the confusion.

If the majority of MRAs advocate for the ending of gender roles, the closing of the wage gap, are against sexual harassment, etc, that's fantastic. I'm saddened they don't recognize that these things, for the most part, hurt women more than men, but as long as they aren't bashing feminists, they're fine I guess. They have the wrong premise. But I won't burn down their house or anything.

But if that's true, could you provide me with a couple of sources of this being the case? Just a Facebook page or something, some official group website, whatever.

///

Here is one. A Voice for Men is often attacked by feminists as being anti-egalitarian, but i don't think that it is. Among other things it advocates for equal accountability between men and women.

By the way, I'm glad you are doing better. I wish you'd read the two links I provided before and consider that it's possible that I'm not just making up the idea that prominent feminists dismiss concerns about abused men and boys and female abusers.

AVFM is a banned site here, you should remove the link. It's arguably a case of feminists abusing institutional power in the real world to get the site listed as a hate site because it attacks feminism.
Besides, AVFM is best understood as rudimentary and exagerrated MRM talk.
It's preaching to the converted. Showing it to someone who doesn't already accept mens rights issues will just put them off. It's the equivalent of Jezebel in it's tone and hostility to society.

[Dumb Ideologies]

See, I'll admit I've never been that much of a calm and kind person while debating. But even after I let you know that I am intentionally trying to keep my cool today, you go on to say that everything I believe is bullshit, I'm wrong, fuck feminism, etc. So I'll be leaving. Call it a ragequit, admission of defeat, whatever. I leave this thread, remaining a radical feminist.

Huh. And I thought I was a hothead.

[Ostroeuropa]

See, I'll admit I've never been that much of a calm and kind person while debating. But even after I let you know that I am intentionally trying to keep my cool today, you go on to say that everything I believe is bullshit, I'm wrong, fuck feminism, etc. So I'll be leaving. Call it a ragequit, admission of defeat, whatever. I leave this thread, remaining a radical feminist.

This is directed at Ostroeuropa, by the way. New Edom, for example, you've been fine.

Well yeh. I think feminism is bullshit and that you're wrong. I consider it fairly implicit that you think the same about what I believe. But ok then, buh bye.

I will continue belittling the MRAs until I see some definitive proof most of them are not just guys that like making "women in the kitchen" jokes. Because that's been my view of them since... well, since I heard of them.

If this is the case, actual MRAs must be quite, quite, quite rare. Not to say they don't exist; just that they are either not vocal at all or are a tiny, tiny group of people.

Not to sound like a stereotype, but the patriarchy hurts men too. Not nearly as much as women; but men too. If MRAs are as you say they are, they should actually be firm allies of feminists, just focusing on different things. Hell, they should be feminists as well.

It does, but when MRAs try to bring up doing something about an issue impacting men to feminists they often get told that they aren't priority or even to check their privilege - that's not really the response of good allies.

This has also been my experience. It's very frustrating dealing with feminists on mens issues, which is the entire reason the MRM came about in the first place. I personally think it would be better if they were ignored, but they can't be ignored due to feminists constantly protesting whenever the MRM tries to get shit done.

[New Edom]

Put another link up instead.

[Kelinfort]

See, I'll admit I've never been that much of a calm and kind person while debating. But even after I let you know that I am intentionally trying to keep my cool today, you go on to say that everything I believe is bullshit, I'm wrong, fuck feminism, etc. So I'll be leaving. Call it a ragequit, admission of defeat, whatever. I leave this thread, remaining a radical feminist.

This is directed at Ostroeuropa, by the way. New Edom, for example, you've been fine.

He's been unfailing polite. If you think he's been in an attack mood, look at his posts about feminism and the KKK or Apartheid.

[Natapoc]

http://www.avoiceformen.com/

Here is one. A Voice for Men is often attacked by feminists as being anti-egalitarian, but i don't think that it is. Among other things it advocates for equal accountability between men and women.

By the way, I'm glad you are doing better. I wish you'd read the two links I provided before and consider that it's possible that I'm not just making up the idea that prominent feminists dismiss concerns about abused men and boys and female abusers.

AVFM is a banned site here, you should remove the link. It's arguably a case of feminists abusing institutional power in the real world to get the site listed as a hate site because it attacks feminism.
Besides, AVFM is best understood as rudimentary and exagerrated MRM talk.
It's preaching to the converted. Showing it to someone who doesn't already accept mens rights issues will just put them off. It's the equivalent of Jezebel in it's tone and hostility to society.

Can you show me where this site is banned here? I've not seen any mention of avfm (or other sites) being banned. Is there a list of banned sites?

I do agree that it's a hate site. I can't believe you would compare it with Jezabel which is a generally useful site with interesting commentary from many types of feminists.

[Ostroeuropa]

AVFM is a banned site here, you should remove the link. It's arguably a case of feminists abusing institutional power in the real world to get the site listed as a hate site because it attacks feminism.
Besides, AVFM is best understood as rudimentary and exagerrated MRM talk.
It's preaching to the converted. Showing it to someone who doesn't already accept mens rights issues will just put them off. It's the equivalent of Jezebel in it's tone and hostility to society.

Can you show me where this site is banned here? I've not seen any mention of avfm (or other sites) being banned. Is there a list of banned sites?

I do agree that it's a hate site. I can't believe you would compare it with Jezabel which is a generally useful site with interesting commentary from many types of feminists.

I'm not sure where a list of banned sites is. I know AVFM is banned as it occasionally comes up, you could search the mod forum for the rulings and such.
I compare it to jezebel because I actually read both, something I doubt you do. The tone is similar, the hostility to the other gender is similar, the issues are usually skewed and misrepresented, etc.
In fact AVFM often publishes parodies of jezebel articles, such as the "Bash a violent bitch" month article.

Jezebel routinely puts out a lot of misandry. I would admit that AVFM does for misogyny too.
For both, if you can look past that, they occasionally have good articles. But both are pretty hateful.

[Gravlen]

AVFM is a banned site here, you should remove the link. It's arguably a case of feminists abusing institutional power in the real world to get the site listed as a hate site because it attacks feminism.
Besides, AVFM is best understood as rudimentary and exagerrated MRM talk.
It's preaching to the converted. Showing it to someone who doesn't already accept mens rights issues will just put them off. It's the equivalent of Jezebel in it's tone and hostility to society.

Can you show me where this site is banned here? I've not seen any mention of avfm (or other sites) being banned. Is there a list of banned sites?

I do agree that it's a hate site. I can't believe you would compare it with Jezabel which is a generally useful site with interesting commentary from many types of feminists.

Forbidden Links/Warez Requests: Referral links (where you derive some sort of financial or other benefit) such as Cyber-war, Outwar, plus all other variants. In addition, certain sites are expressly prohibited, specifically kevan.org, ebaumsworld, albinoblacksheep, plasticnipple, Encyclopaedia Dramatica, A Voice For Men, and Fred Phelps' godhates<group> hate-mongering sites are not allowed. Use discretion when linking to another site.

The One Stop Rules Shop

[Gravlen]

Jezebel routinely puts out a lot of misandry. I would admit that AVFM does for misogyny too.
For both, if you can look past that, they occasionally have good articles. But both are pretty hateful.

I still recall and enjoy the one you posted about how paternity tests until recently had been banned by the evil feministst of Sweden...

[Ostroeuropa]

See, I'll admit I've never been that much of a calm and kind person while debating. But even after I let you know that I am intentionally trying to keep my cool today, you go on to say that everything I believe is bullshit, I'm wrong, fuck feminism, etc. So I'll be leaving. Call it a ragequit, admission of defeat, whatever. I leave this thread, remaining a radical feminist.

This is directed at Ostroeuropa, by the way. New Edom, for example, you've been fine.

He's been unfailing polite. If you think he's been in an attack mood, look at his posts about feminism and the KKK or Apartheid.

Did you miss my post where I already explained why I do these things and that you keep repeating it despite never addressing my argument?

Ok apatheid:
When feminists argue that women fear men and this is an example of how women are oppressed by society, I compare it to whites fearing a black uprising in south africa to point out that fearing a group is usually more indicative of bigotry by those who are fearful than those who they fear.
In addition, when demands for womens spaces and segregation of the genders come up, I do, in fact, compare it to apatheid and race segregation. Why the hell shouldn't I.

As for the KKK, I use that as an example of how being a member of an organization that causes harm to others isn't excusable just by you ignoring or being wrong about the organizations activities, as well as to point out body and victimization count.
(The duluth model, plus the rape issue, victimizing men. If you include the derailing of talks on male suicide in with that, I'd say feminist organizations probably have a body count that makes it not entirely out there to compare them to the KKK. Especially when viewed in the context of the "KILL ALL MEN!" and "MEN ARE SCUM!" shit that comes from the movement. They merely use indirect means to enact their hateful urges, such as the duluth model.) The comparison comes in with, I don't think wearing bedsheets (Calling yourself a feminist) and then acting suprised when people think you are a bigot is particularly clever. Ofcourse they do. What the hell did you expect? Stop doing that.

[Natapoc]

Can you show me where this site is banned here? I've not seen any mention of avfm (or other sites) being banned. Is there a list of banned sites?

I do agree that it's a hate site. I can't believe you would compare it with Jezabel which is a generally useful site with interesting commentary from many types of feminists.

Forbidden Links/Warez Requests: Referral links (where you derive some sort of financial or other benefit) such as Cyber-war, Outwar, plus all other variants. In addition, certain sites are expressly prohibited, specifically kevan.org, ebaumsworld, albinoblacksheep, plasticnipple, Encyclopaedia Dramatica, A Voice For Men, and Fred Phelps' godhates<group> hate-mongering sites are not allowed. Use discretion when linking to another site.

The One Stop Rules Shop

Thanks! I somehow missed the second part of that paragraph when re-reading the rules. It's interesting that they say "hate-mongering sites are not allowed". There is a lot of subjectivity in exactly what constitutes a "hate-mongering" site.

Anyway I was just curious. I don't feel safe going to avfm anyway. I looked at their site a long time ago and it was awful.

[Kelinfort]

He's been unfailing polite. If you think he's been in an attack mood, look at his posts about feminism and the KKK or Apartheid.

Did you miss my post where I already explained why I do these things and that you keep repeating it despite never addressing my argument?

Ok apatheid:
When feminists argue that women fear men and this is an example of how women are oppressed by society, I compare it to whites fearing a black uprising in south africa to point out that fearing a group is usually more indicative of bigotry by those who are fearful than those who they fear.
In addition, when demands for womens spaces and segregation of the genders come up, I do, in fact, compare it to apatheid and race segregation. Why the hell shouldn't I.

As for the KKK, I use that as an example of how being a member of an organization that causes harm to others isn't excusable just by you ignoring or being wrong about the organizations activities, as well as to point out body and victimization count.
(The duluth model, plus the rape issue, victimizing men. If you include the derailing of talks on male suicide in with that, I'd say feminist organizations probably have a body count that makes it not entirely out there to compare them to the KKK. Especially when viewed in the context of the "KILL ALL MEN!" and "MEN ARE SCUM!" shit that comes from the movement. They merely use indirect means to enact their hateful urges, such as the duluth model.) The comparison comes in with, I don't think wearing bedsheets (Calling yourself a feminist) and then acting suprised when people think you are a bigot is particularly clever. Ofcourse they do. What the hell did you expect? Stop doing that.

I still think the comparisons are hyperbolic, asinine, and offensive. But that wasn't the point of my post. He alleged you were being rude and impolite. You clearly weren't.

[Grave_n_idle]

That's a parody of feminism you realize, not the MRA.

Same thing.

[Ostroeuropa]

That's a parody of feminism you realize, not the MRA.

Same thing.

Yeh yeh whatever. You're clearly here in good faith, right? Not just taking any and every opportunity to attack the MRM and anti-feminists, regardless of the veracity of your point? I mean clearly, the MRM doesn't highlight and discuss mens issues. No no, they're just a parody of tumblr feminists like meninism. You've never, ever been forced to debate mens rights because an MRA brought them up, they just go around being parodies. /sarc

Did you miss my post where I already explained why I do these things and that you keep repeating it despite never addressing my argument?

Ok apatheid:
When feminists argue that women fear men and this is an example of how women are oppressed by society, I compare it to whites fearing a black uprising in south africa to point out that fearing a group is usually more indicative of bigotry by those who are fearful than those who they fear.
In addition, when demands for womens spaces and segregation of the genders come up, I do, in fact, compare it to apatheid and race segregation. Why the hell shouldn't I.

As for the KKK, I use that as an example of how being a member of an organization that causes harm to others isn't excusable just by you ignoring or being wrong about the organizations activities, as well as to point out body and victimization count.
(The duluth model, plus the rape issue, victimizing men. If you include the derailing of talks on male suicide in with that, I'd say feminist organizations probably have a body count that makes it not entirely out there to compare them to the KKK. Especially when viewed in the context of the "KILL ALL MEN!" and "MEN ARE SCUM!" shit that comes from the movement. They merely use indirect means to enact their hateful urges, such as the duluth model.) The comparison comes in with, I don't think wearing bedsheets (Calling yourself a feminist) and then acting suprised when people think you are a bigot is particularly clever. Ofcourse they do. What the hell did you expect? Stop doing that.

I still think the comparisons are hyperbolic, asinine, and offensive. But that wasn't the point of my post. He alleged you were being rude and impolite. You clearly weren't.

Oh definitely hyperbolic. I've admitted several times I engage in hyperbole. Except the segregation one. I think that's a proportional comparison.
My argument is usually that while I engage in hyperbole on occasion, feminists seem content to just make shit up out of whole cloth to attack the MRM.
I dunno if it's asinine, but I can see why you might think that.

Offensive? Don't care. I get offended by stuff too, but I don't let it effect my willingness to engage with an argument. (Alright. Most of the time. Chessmistress managed to break me once when she was talking about male victims of DV and I just couldn't post on it and left it to Galloism.)

Thanks for standing up for me though.

[Grave_n_idle]

Yeh yeh whatever. You're clearly here in good faith, right?

The whole thread is based on a lie. Don't talk to me about 'good faith'.

[Ostroeuropa]

Yeh yeh whatever. You're clearly here in good faith, right?

The whole thread is based on a lie. Don't talk to me about 'good faith'.

It's only a lie to (most) feminists because they think that feminism = believes in equality of the sexes.
Some are honest enough to admit that's bullshit and it's about womens rights.

So you look at the polls and see the same number of people believe in equal rights and think "They are feminists."
Despite those people probably not:

1. Believing that men oppress women
2. Believing in patriarchy
3. Believing women are more oppressed than men
4. Believing in objectification
5. Believing in rape culture
6. Being gynocentric

etc, etc.

If you look at the number of people who say "I am a feminist" and accept all that that implies about them, the numbers have dropped.
You can complain about the sample size as Imperial russia did, and I accept that's a valid point. But otherwise? Nah. It's not a lie mate, it's just your ideological rationalization trying to deny the obvious that people are more skeeved out by feminists these days due to all thats been revealed about them recently.
And so long as feminists like you continue to be hostile to people who try to expose them to reality, that'll keep happening.
You aren't in this thread discussing anything. You aren't here arguing points like I am.
You're here PURELY attacking anti-feminists and the MRM. That's your contribution. Think about that for a moment and what it says about you.
You don't engage with the arguments, just engage in sniping. That's the kind of attitude that I think has led to feminisms decline, well, part of the attitude. Whats worse is, you do it with blatantly ridiculous things like "Same thing." when anyone can go to the MRM and see that it isn't the case.
Like I said.
You seem content to just make shit up to attack the MRM, it doesn't fill people with confidence about your movement, and seems to indicate I was probably right that you're undergoing the ideological equivalent of a mid-life crisis having realized feminism is wrong. You can't make the MRMs arguments go away, no matter how hard you try to ostracize the people and attack them. The arguments will still be there. So you should engage with them instead of just making shit up about the people making them.