Feminism in decline

[Llamalandia]

In the realm of something like a rape fantasy, ignorance is not an excuse. He should have asked her about it, clarified some things, and then done it at a later date once he was more informed as to her desires.

Honestly, that's why it's so important to popularize Safe Sane and Consensual standards.

There was a reason why the BDSM community threw a shitfit when FSOG became the public face of BDSM with it's complete lack of safewords and sane practices, and its bending the concept of consent until it breaks. As more people in the vanilla world are starting to explore this stuff, we need to work harder to make it clear how it needs to be done to avoid people getting violated and/or hurt.

Which the woman, herself admits to largely ignoring. She didn't want to discuss a safe word because that wasn't cool.

In my mind, it was still very much in the realm of fantasy, and I was secure in knowing that if and when I decided to take things to the next level — i.e., act out the fantasy — the inevitable and, for me, dreaded conversation involving safe words and boundaries (things I’d always associated with schoolmarms and humorless girls who’d read too much Third Wave feminism) would have to happen.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Ignorance is no excuse.

Which defeats the purpose of the safeword, which is that it's easy to remember and not a word normally used during BDSM sessions.

I would argue ignorance can be an excuse under reasonable circumstances.
Yes, it does defeat the purpose of the safeword, but it can happen.

What you are essentially arguing is that someone who has committed no negligence and no malice should nonetheless be punished for behavior that anyone would engage in (The key being that a reasonable person would assume consent is present) because they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

This is literally,"I didn't know she didn't want me to rape her."

Such scenarios may be extremely rare, but they might happen.

Another example would be if I held a gun to a womans head and told her to fuck you or i'd kill her. You do not see this occur.
She then actively participates in sex with you, and gives no indication that she is under duress.
Are you culpable for rape?

In this case there is a third party involved who is responsible for this. Thus I wouldn't be culpable, but this is apples and oranges.

I would say no. Because from your perspective at the time, you have every reason to think consent is present, and a reasonable person would likewise.

No, I have no reason to think consent was present. If I'm in a jury for a rape case and the defendent's only defense is,"She was implying consent when she told me about her fantasies!", I'm going to slam down the gavel so hard my powdered wig flies off, then I'd drag him straight to prison.

So yes, ignorance can be an excuse under limited circumstances.

This is not one of those circumstances.

[Llamalandia]

Honestly, that's why it's so important to popularize Safe Sane and Consensual standards.

There was a reason why the BDSM community threw a shitfit when FSOG became the public face of BDSM with it's complete lack of safewords and sane practices, and its bending the concept of consent until it breaks. As more people in the vanilla world are starting to explore this stuff, we need to work harder to make it clear how it needs to be done to avoid people getting violated and/or hurt.

I think consensual standards have hit a rut because of the yes means yes campaigning, which revolves around the chase dynamic and placing the burden on men.
We would do better to encourage communication during sex, and to encourage women to take a more active role.
That way, a woman or man not actively participating would send up red flags quicker, and we limit the pitfall of people forgoing verbal consent for whatever reason and a rape happening as a result.

The yes means yes campaign should have encouraged dual participation and during-sex communication in addition to these standards.

That it would lead to better sex lives is a side benefit.

Sounds about right.

[Ostroeuropa]

I would argue ignorance can be an excuse under reasonable circumstances.
Yes, it does defeat the purpose of the safeword, but it can happen.

What you are essentially arguing is that someone who has committed no negligence and no malice should nonetheless be punished for behavior that anyone would engage in (The key being that a reasonable person would assume consent is present) because they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

This is literally,"I didn't know she didn't want me to rape her."

Such scenarios may be extremely rare, but they might happen.

Another example would be if I held a gun to a womans head and told her to fuck you or i'd kill her. You do not see this occur.
She then actively participates in sex with you, and gives no indication that she is under duress.
Are you culpable for rape?

In this case there is a third party involved who is responsible for this. Thus I wouldn't be culpable, but this is apples and oranges.

I would say no. Because from your perspective at the time, you have every reason to think consent is present, and a reasonable person would likewise.

No, I have no reason to think consent was present. If I'm in a jury for a rape case and the defendent's only defense is,"She was implying consent when she told me about her fantasies!", I'm going to slam down the gavel so hard my powdered wig flies off, then I'd drag him straight to prison.

So yes, ignorance can be an excuse under limited circumstances.

This is not one of those circumstances.

Where did you get the impression I was talking about that case? I never claimed to be talking about that specific case.
I actually explicitly said I don't think these rationales apply to that case. So yeh, whatever.

Yes, it is literally that in this specific case. But what i'm talking about is "I didn't know she didn't want sex, and she gave the impression that she was consenting in the following ways."
By the way, i'm fairly sure the courts agree with me on that.

But whereas they would deny a rape occured, i'm willing to concede one did. Just that the person shouldn't be held as culpable for it in the specific type of circumstances i'm talking about.
Maybe if you'd paid attention to what I was arguing you wouldn't have felt the need to jump in like that.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

This is literally,"I didn't know she didn't want me to rape her."

In this case there is a third party involved who is responsible for this. Thus I wouldn't be culpable, but this is apples and oranges.

No, I have no reason to think consent was present. If I'm in a jury for a rape case and the defendent's only defense is,"She was implying consent when she told me about her fantasies!", I'm going to slam down the gavel so hard my powdered wig flies off, then I'd drag him straight to prison.

This is not one of those circumstances.

Where did you get the impression I was talking about that case? I never claimed to be talking about that specific case.
I actually explicitly said I don't think these rationales apply to that case. So yeh, whatever.

Considering this conversation started with that and I didn't see your later post until after I posted, you can't blame me.

[Ostroeuropa]

Where did you get the impression I was talking about that case? I never claimed to be talking about that specific case.
I actually explicitly said I don't think these rationales apply to that case. So yeh, whatever.

Considering this conversation started with that and I didn't see your later post until after I posted, you can't blame me.

You could try reading the posts and not assuming we're discussing the same thing unless it's said. So yes, yes I can blame you.
Not that I give enough of a shit to, I just think it's pretty funny that you're denying personal responsibility after arguing with me about ignorance not being an excuse.
When this is a case of you being negligent. And instead of going "Oh i'm sorry, my mistake." you're now abdicating responsibility.
Just thought i'd point that out.
(Yes, i'm being an asshole.)

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Considering this conversation started with that and I didn't see your later post until after I posted, you can't blame me.

You could try reading the posts and not assuming we're discussing the same thing unless it's said. So yes, yes I can blame you.

Or I could not. It'd take too long.

Not that I give enough of a shit to, I just think it's pretty funny that you're denying personal responsibility after arguing with me about ignorance not being an excuse.

I knew you'd say that, which is why I said it. And besides, it's apples and oranges.

(Yes, i'm being an asshole.)

I like anal. Just thought I'd share that.

[Haktiva]

wow this picked up fast in a couple of hours.

Here's a question, how does tribalism factor into all of this? I know we certainly care deeply for our own flesh and blood(well most of us anyways) but since we as humans prefer what's familiar to us, we're very easily set against what's different. And that can be used in a million different ways(and of course is).

When it comes to this bit of insanity, called the Gender War, we see it as men vs. women in the broadest sense. Of course, we have different cultures taking part in this as well. Feminism has splintered quite a bit, with groups catering to black feminists, white feminists, asian feminists, etc. They'll all fight against tradcons and MRAs, but will soon go to fighting each other just because of how different they are.

We like to surround ourselves with people who meet our same group preference, and I see this in part as a battle to determine the accepted tribal identity of whatever region the argument takes place in. I mostly see the fight between feminists and tradcons as a fight between two gynocentric systems, one where men have all the power but work at the behest of women, and one where women have power but men still work for women. It's just insane, honestly.

[Gravlen]

But by your definition, a sleeping person, has neither consented to nor refused sex. It may or may not be against his/her will to have sex. But we don't know. At any rate, I'm satisfied, I believe we agree that not all non-consensual sex is rape. After all as your definition says, it requires criminial intent.

I think a lawyer would agree that forcing intercourse upon someone who has not consented in any way shape or form constitutes rape in criminal law.

Call it sexual assault, and you'll have more jurisdictions covered.

I prefer the term sexual assault over rape. It's a more accurate and less emotional term which also has the benefit of being absolutely gender neutral (some people, as we've seen, will argue that men can't be raped. That's a more difficult argument to pull off with sexual assault).

[Gravlen]

But it was against her will at the time. Rape. Flat out. Blatant. Rape.

Oh, ok, and how was he supposed to know that? She did basically nothing to indicate that this was not what she wanted.

It's his responsibility to ensure that consent is freely and willingly given. He should have asked her, and maybe he would have avoided becoming a rapist.

[Russels Orbiting Teapot]

It's his responsibility to ensure that consent is freely and willingly given. He should have asked her, and maybe he would have avoided becoming a rapist.

Just to be clear, would you agree that in other sexual encounters in which she was a willing participant, that it was her responsibility to ensure that his consent was freely and willingly given?

[Tahar Joblis]

In the realm of something like a rape fantasy, ignorance is not an excuse. He should have asked her about it, clarified some things, and then done it at a later date once he was more informed as to her desires.

Honestly, that's why it's so important to popularize Safe Sane and Consensual standards.

There was a reason why the BDSM community threw a shitfit when FSOG became the public face of BDSM with it's complete lack of safewords and sane practices, and its bending the concept of consent until it breaks. As more people in the vanilla world are starting to explore this stuff, we need to work harder to make it clear how it needs to be done to avoid people getting violated and/or hurt.

I have actually played unwilling witness to the opposite scenario - a woman springing her "rape victim" fantasy on her partner mid-act.

... and then there are the infamous series of recommendations from Cosmo about surprising boyfriends with a finger up the butt. We really have a bit of a problem with what amounts to a fetishization of bad communication between partners, because some people think that it's more romantic to surprise partners with what they already want. Really, this can in turn be viewed as guess culture in action.

[UIJ]

I just hate feminism in general. Feminaiz or not all feminist are crazy.

[Bezkoshtovnya]

I just hate feminism in general. Feminaiz or not all feminist are crazy.

Gender equality is crazy?

[Vettrera]

I just hate feminism in general. Feminaiz or not all feminist are crazy.

wow.

[Bezkoshtovnya]

I just hate feminism in general. Feminaiz or not all feminist are crazy.

wow.

Sweeping generalization, ho!

[UIJ]

I just hate feminism in general. Feminaiz or not all feminist are crazy.

Gender equality is crazy?

No it's not. The way I see it is, cool you like gender equality, you don't have to be a feminist. Or a "meninist" for that matter. People, just clam the fuck down.

[Llamalandia]

Gender equality is crazy?

No it's not. The way I see it is, cool you like gender equality, you don't have to be a feminist. Or a "meninist" for that matter. People, just clam the fuck down.

Yes yes, clam down everyone.

[Bezkoshtovnya]

Gender equality is crazy?

No it's not. The way I see it is, cool you like gender equality, you don't have to be a feminist. Or a "meninist" for that matter. People, just clam the fuck down.

...that is kind of exactly what "feminism" means.

[UIJ]

No it's not. The way I see it is, cool you like gender equality, you don't have to be a feminist. Or a "meninist" for that matter. People, just clam the fuck down.

Yes yes, clam down everyone.

I remember when WE HAD REAL PROBLEMS. Or even today the fact that in CA is in a major drought that could end up very bad. But no, instead I see parents and old white men turning kids into pussys and bitches that run and hide at the site of a gym ball. Also no seems to care about our shitty ass education system and how flawed it is. Nope just radical feminism and parents getting rid of shwityballs flavored ice cream because your kids are to retarded to see that. Ug, this world makes me deadly sick.

[Kelinfort]

Yes yes, clam down everyone.

I remember when WE HAD REAL PROBLEMS. Or today the fact that CA in in a major drought that could end up very bad. But no, instead I see parents and old white men turning kids into pussys and bitches that run and hide at the site of a gym ball. Also no seems to care about our shitty ass education system and how flawed it is. Nope just radical feminism and parents getting rid of shwityballs flavored ice cream because your kids are to retarded to see that. Ug, this world makes me deadly sick.

Aww, you blame helicopter parents on gender equality. Cute.

I'm thinking you're the one who needs to "clam" the fuck.

[UIJ]

I remember when WE HAD REAL PROBLEMS. Or today the fact that CA in in a major drought that could end up very bad. But no, instead I see parents and old white men turning kids into pussys and bitches that run and hide at the site of a gym ball. Also no seems to care about our shitty ass education system and how flawed it is. Nope just radical feminism and parents getting rid of shwityballs flavored ice cream because your kids are to retarded to see that. Ug, this world makes me deadly sick.

Aww, you blame helicopter parents on gender equality. Cute.

I'm thinking you're the one who needs to "clam" the fuck.

I'm sorry what? I'm to the point that calming down is hardly a problem. I just try to stay civilized. That's the hard part.

[Galloism]

Honestly, that's why it's so important to popularize Safe Sane and Consensual standards.

There was a reason why the BDSM community threw a shitfit when FSOG became the public face of BDSM with it's complete lack of safewords and sane practices, and its bending the concept of consent until it breaks. As more people in the vanilla world are starting to explore this stuff, we need to work harder to make it clear how it needs to be done to avoid people getting violated and/or hurt.

I have actually played unwilling witness to the opposite scenario - a woman springing her "rape victim" fantasy on her partner mid-act.

... and then there are the infamous series of recommendations from Cosmo about surprising boyfriends with a finger up the butt. We really have a bit of a problem with what amounts to a fetishization of bad communication between partners, because some people think that it's more romantic to surprise partners with what they already want. Really, this can in turn be viewed as guess culture in action.

Yes. Cosmo is bad about that.

[Bezkoshtovnya]

Yes yes, clam down everyone.

I remember when WE HAD REAL PROBLEMS. Or even today the fact that in CA is in a major drought that could end up very bad. But no, instead I see parents and old white men turning kids into pussys and bitches that run and hide at the site of a gym ball. Also no seems to care about our shitty ass education system and how flawed it is. Nope just radical feminism and parents getting rid of shwityballs flavored ice cream because your kids are to retarded to see that. Ug, this world makes me deadly sick.

Implying gender inequality is not a real problem...however you do not just wave a wand and fix the education system, It too is a problem, at least in the US, but it is a slow fix.

[UIJ]

I remember when WE HAD REAL PROBLEMS. Or even today the fact that in CA is in a major drought that could end up very bad. But no, instead I see parents and old white men turning kids into pussys and bitches that run and hide at the site of a gym ball. Also no seems to care about our shitty ass education system and how flawed it is. Nope just radical feminism and parents getting rid of shwityballs flavored ice cream because your kids are to retarded to see that. Ug, this world makes me deadly sick.

Implying gender inequality is not a real problem...however you do not just wave a wand and fix the education system, It too is a problem, at least in the US, but it is a slow fix.

"Implying gender inequality is not a real problem" Explain how it is. You tard. (Sorry for calling you a tard, I just added that because...?)