Feminism in decline

[Llamalandia]

Aaand here we go: the "everything is rape"-thing came up

...you honestly don't think non-consensual intercourse is rape? What. The. Unholy. Fuck.

I will say, most non-consential sex can be called rape.

[Ostroeuropa]

Would you similarly say that it doesn't harm someone to be groped against their will?
How is a woman harmed if people decide to grope her?
How is this harm not also present when men are raped by women?

If a man is groped by a women than how the fuck is that harming to him? why should he felt traumatised?
The woman are weaker people and it would have different effect than whan a man is groped by a woman.
It is a bullshit comparison. Since there are different standards for different genders.

Suppose the man is weaker than the woman in question. As it happens, i'm opposed to different standards for different genders.

[Munin]

i can´t believe i´m saying this but i agree with the anti-feminist douche for once. Just what the heck? Does not harm the man? what about physiological trauma, ever thought about that? Or the fact he might have live with the fact that he can´t tell anyone without people saying to him it was not rape. And there is the fact they are more likely to have anxiety, depression etc.
http://www.aftersilence.org/male-survivors.php
These ideas are harmful and perpetuate rape culture. Granted even thought it happens in larger number to women and most male victims come from male on male rape, this does not justify such thinking.

Nope.
See above.

Stop perpetuating rape culture. It's pretty rich you chastise others for doing so then do it yourself.

oh gee thanks for accusing me of perpetuating rape culture against men. I did not said that men can´t be raped nor female on male rape does not exist.
I meant that even if statistically female rape victims and men getting raped by their own gender happened frequently , this does not justify in anyway dismissing male victims from female on male rape
Those are two different things, pay attention next time before you accuse someone.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

wat

wait

wat

no

Non-consensual intercourse is rape. If one of the parties does not consent (is sleeping) then they are being raped. This seriously makes me afraid for your community.

Is all non-consensual sex actually rape though? I mean, think about two severally mentally handicapped persons who have sex. Neither can possibly give meaningful consent to the act, yet are we really going to say they "raped each other" prosecute and put them on sex offender registry?

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/rape

"Rape
A criminal offense defined in most states as forcible sexual relations with a person against that person's will."

Two animals can't consent, but they can still have sex. Drunk people can have sex but it isn't rape. Unless one of the parties is unable to give consent while the other is, it isn't rape.

[Llamalandia]

Well it implies that justice is done on a group level rather than at the individual level. Justice should be an individual affair, not something imposed wholesale on society. For instance, affirmative action policies, a hallmark of the sjw's, rewards and punishes people not on their actual lived expierience but rather on the group stereotypes and expieriences of many.
Plus, many of their issues and causes are total crap, eg. Anita Sarkeesian.

Doesn't work that way when groups are discriminated against as a whole. Then it's a larger issue.

Yeah, but why should say, Will Smith's son receive special preference for racial discrimination he has likely never personally suffered? I mean seriously evaluate everyone on a case by case basis, that is the proper way to implement justice.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

...you honestly don't think non-consensual intercourse is rape? What. The. Unholy. Fuck.

I will say, most non-consential sex can be called rape.

...but someone fucking a sleeping person isn't?

[Ostroeuropa]

That's a complete lie. You can check the link to see how much of a lie it is.

"I've repeatedly said that I don't think the MRM should handle womens rights, and the MRM agrees with this."

Does that sound pro-equality, or like a mirror of feminism? No - it sounds like they don't think they should handle women's rights.

Seriously, the only thing more partisan than the way you present MRA nonsense, is the MRAs themselves. And I'm not even totally sure about that.

"I don't think the LGBT lobby should handle advocating for black people."

"See!? Told you dem gays were lying about equality being their goal!1!"

Absolutely ridiculous.

[Kumuri]

Well, reading through this, it seems we can all agree that gender roles are harmful. It looks like most of the arguing is about which side is perpetuating gender roles, but we seem to agree that they're bad for the most part.
Well, except for that blatant reactionary there.

[Llamalandia]

Is all non-consensual sex actually rape though? I mean, think about two severally mentally handicapped persons who have sex. Neither can possibly give meaningful consent to the act, yet are we really going to say they "raped each other" prosecute and put them on sex offender registry?

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/rape

"Rape
A criminal offense defined in most states as forcible sexual relations with a person against that person's will."

Two animals can't consent, but they can still have sex. Drunk people can have sex but it isn't rape. Unless one of the parties is unable to give consent while the other is, it isn't rape.

But by your definition, a sleeping person, has neither consented to nor refused sex. It may or may not be against his/her will to have sex. But we don't know. At any rate, I'm satisfied, I believe we agree that not all non-consensual sex is rape. After all as your definition says, it requires criminial intent.

[Ostroeuropa]

Nope.
See above.

Stop perpetuating rape culture. It's pretty rich you chastise others for doing so then do it yourself.

oh gee thanks for accusing me of perpetuating rape culture against men. I did not said that men can´t be raped nor female on male rape does not exist.
I meant that even if statistically female rape victims and men getting raped by their own gender happened frequently , this does not justify in anyway dismissing male victims from female on male rape
Those are two different things, pay attention next time before you accuse someone.

You minimized the amount of female rapists. This is a common problem among feminists.
Female rapists are a problem in society, the number of them should not be constantly minimized like you people seem to insist on doing.
Finally, you perpetuate a myth about rape that it happens to women more. It doesn't. You are erasing male victimization and causing people to see rape as a womens issue. That is part of rape culture too.

Granted even thought it happens in larger number to women and most male victims come from male on male rape, this does not justify such thinking.

Nothing about this statement was true, and the only purpose it served is to deflect attention from female rapists and male rape victims, onto male rapists and female victims.
You should cut shit like that out.

[Llamalandia]

I will say, most non-consential sex can be called rape.

...but someone fucking a sleeping person isn't?

Depends, you might have gotten prior consent from them to have sex anytime you want. I mean, heck, there is some joke about "Do what you want just don't wake me up."

[Purger]

If a man is groped by a women than how the fuck is that harming to him? why should he felt traumatised?
The woman are weaker people and it would have different effect than whan a man is groped by a woman.
It is a bullshit comparison. Since there are different standards for different genders.

Suppose the man is weaker than the woman in question. As it happens, i'm opposed to different standards for different genders.

If a man is weaker than a woman, than it also applies since man are by nature a stronger gender. Actually different standards for different genders have always exist and should exist. As I notice "male rape" is a modern invention, and I really do not see how the man should be felt traumatised if he is groped by a woman.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/rape

"Rape
A criminal offense defined in most states as forcible sexual relations with a person against that person's will."

Two animals can't consent, but they can still have sex. Drunk people can have sex but it isn't rape. Unless one of the parties is unable to give consent while the other is, it isn't rape.

But by your definition, a sleeping person, has neither consented to nor refused sex. It may or may not be against his/her will to have sex. But we don't know. At any rate, I'm satisfied, I believe we agree that not all non-consensual sex is rape. After all as your definition says, it requires criminial intent.

I think a lawyer would agree that forcing intercourse upon someone who has not consented in any way shape or form constitutes rape in criminal law.

[Llamalandia]

Well, reading through this, it seems we can all agree that gender roles are harmful. It looks like most of the arguing is about which side is perpetuating gender roles, but we seem to agree that they're bad for the most part.
Well, except for that blatant reactionary there.

I disagree. First of all what is and is and isn't harmful and what comes from gender roles versus from other societal factors or personal choices. Not to be too reactionary though.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

...but someone fucking a sleeping person isn't?

Depends, you might have gotten prior consent from them to have sex anytime you want. I mean, heck, there is some joke about "Do what you want just don't wake me up."

Okay. Fine. What the fuck ever. If a husband and wife agree that the other can do sexual things to them while they sleep, that's fine. But that's a ridiculously specific instance. You're just making shit up.

[Grave_n_idle]

"I've repeatedly said that I don't think the MRM should handle womens rights, and the MRM agrees with this."

Does that sound pro-equality, or like a mirror of feminism? No - it sounds like they don't think they should handle women's rights.

Seriously, the only thing more partisan than the way you present MRA nonsense, is the MRAs themselves. And I'm not even totally sure about that.

"I don't think the LGBT lobby should handle advocating for black people."

"See!? Told you dem gays were lying about equality being their goal!1!"

Absolutely ridiculous.

Feminism is about equality. About rights for women. And men.

Are MRA's like a mirror for feminists? No - they are not interested in gender equality.

It's interesting that you think women and men advocating for one another's rights is like the LGBT movement advocating for racially diverse populations. It explains a lot about your understanding of feminism.

Don't worry, I'm not actually accusing you of having an understanding of feminism.

[Llamalandia]

But by your definition, a sleeping person, has neither consented to nor refused sex. It may or may not be against his/her will to have sex. But we don't know. At any rate, I'm satisfied, I believe we agree that not all non-consensual sex is rape. After all as your definition says, it requires criminial intent.

I think a lawyer would agree that forcing intercourse upon someone who has not consented in any way shape or form constitutes rape in criminal law.

Yeah, mostly. Like I said, earlier, there are those who are incapable of forming the necessary mens rea to commit the crime of rape, but can still have sex with people, either with or without consent. But yeah, in general I agree with you.

Of course part of the problem is determining the where the line on consent is. I mean how drunk is too drunk to consent? Being blacked out drunk sure, but sluring your words a little? Ehh, it gets very very grey pretty quickly.

[Ostroeuropa]

"I don't think the LGBT lobby should handle advocating for black people."

"See!? Told you dem gays were lying about equality being their goal!1!"

Absolutely ridiculous.

Feminism is about equality. About rights for women. And men.

Are MRA's like a mirror for feminists? No - they are not interested in gender equality.

It's interesting that you think women and men advocating for one another's rights is like the LGBT movement advocating for raciallydiverse populations. It explains a lot about your understanding of feminism.

Don't worry, I'm not actually accusing you of having an understanding of feminism.

That depends on whether you think feminism is advocating for mens rights or not.
I think some feminists try, and fuck it up terribly because they approach it from a feminist perspective.

Sort of like if white people were the representatives of a racial rights group and made all the decisions about it, then got really fucking pissy when that minority said "No actually you're doing it wrong."

Some more feminists don't bother, and just advocate for women.
And then some more feminists still go actively against mens rights.

So yeh. Bullshit mate.

[Ostroeuropa]

But by your definition, a sleeping person, has neither consented to nor refused sex. It may or may not be against his/her will to have sex. But we don't know. At any rate, I'm satisfied, I believe we agree that not all non-consensual sex is rape. After all as your definition says, it requires criminial intent.

I think a lawyer would agree that forcing intercourse upon someone who has not consented in any way shape or form constitutes rape in criminal law.

Depends on the country.
Men cannot be raped by women in the UK unless that woman penetrates him.

Partially the fault of tradcons like our friend here who wrote the original, and partially the fault of feminists for being gynocentric and not considering mens issues when demanding changes to rape law. (It's been updated a lot with women in mind.)

[Llamalandia]

Depends, you might have gotten prior consent from them to have sex anytime you want. I mean, heck, there is some joke about "Do what you want just don't wake me up."

Okay. Fine. What the fuck ever. If a husband and wife agree that the other can do sexual things to them while they sleep, that's fine. But that's a ridiculously specific instance. You're just making shit up.

It happens. Heck, I have even cited a story about a woman with a rape fantasy who after sharing that with here boyfriend was "raped" by him. Crazy shit does happen, but yeah, like I said, in general you are correct.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

I think a lawyer would agree that forcing intercourse upon someone who has not consented in any way shape or form constitutes rape in criminal law.

Yeah, mostly. Like I said, earlier, there are those who are incapable of forming the necessary mens rea to commit the crime of rape, but can still have sex with people, either with or without consent. But yeah, in general I agree with you.

Of course part of the problem is determining the where the line on consent is. I mean how drunk is too drunk to consent? Being blacked out drunk sure, but sluring your words a little? Ehh, it gets very very grey pretty quickly.

It would depend on if it was reported, if one regretted it, the level of intoxication of each, etc. Case by case basis.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Okay. Fine. What the fuck ever. If a husband and wife agree that the other can do sexual things to them while they sleep, that's fine. But that's a ridiculously specific instance. You're just making shit up.

It happens. Heck, I have even cited a story about a woman with a rape fantasy who after sharing that with here boyfriend was "raped" by him. Crazy shit does happen, but yeah, like I said, in general you are correct.

A girl telling her boyfriend about a rape fantasy doesn't constitute consent to being fucking raped.

[Llamalandia]

"I don't think the LGBT lobby should handle advocating for black people."

"See!? Told you dem gays were lying about equality being their goal!1!"

Absolutely ridiculous.

Feminism is about equality. About rights for women. And men.

Are MRA's like a mirror for feminists? No - they are not interested in gender equality.

It's interesting that you think women and men advocating for one another's rights is like the LGBT movement advocating for racially diverse populations. It explains a lot about your understanding of feminism.

Don't worry, I'm not actually accusing you of having an understanding of feminism.

You know it feels like "so-called feminists" seem to say that often in these threads. Maybe if lots of people aren't "understanding feminism" then maybe feminists are not explaining it very well!

[Ostroeuropa]

It happens. Heck, I have even cited a story about a woman with a rape fantasy who after sharing that with here boyfriend was "raped" by him. Crazy shit does happen, but yeah, like I said, in general you are correct.

A girl telling her boyfriend about a rape fantasy doesn't constitute consent to being fucking raped.

This.

There are constructive ways to act out a rape fantasy, some of which can include surprise. (Though this isn't as common.)

"At some point over the next week, I want you to ambush me and roleplay-rape me. If i'm not in the mood at the time, I will use the safe word, Skittles."

[Grave_n_idle]

Feminism is about equality. About rights for women. And men.

Are MRA's like a mirror for feminists? No - they are not interested in gender equality.

It's interesting that you think women and men advocating for one another's rights is like the LGBT movement advocating for racially diverse populations. It explains a lot about your understanding of feminism.

Don't worry, I'm not actually accusing you of having an understanding of feminism.

You know it feels like "so-called feminists" seem to say that often in these threads. Maybe if lots of people aren't "understanding feminism" then maybe feminists are not explaining it very well!

Or, alternatively, no matter how often it's explained, someone from the anti-feminist camp trots out some non-representative minority, or misrepresents something - and the explanation gets lost in three days of arguing about something that was bullshit in the first place.