Feminism in decline

[Ostroeuropa]

In 2013 Yougov published a poll showing that 28% of Americans considered themselves feminists.

https://today.yougov.com/news/2013/05/0 ... irty-word/

Just 28% of Americans consider themselves feminists, with women twice as likely as men to use that label for themselves. And the latest Economist/YouGov Poll suggests that for women at least, feminism is generational, with the youngest women and those who came of age during the 1970’s feminist movement the most willing to use that label for themselves.

2014 and early 2015 was a particularly damaging time for feminism it seems, as now only 18% of Americans consider themselves feminists.

http://www.vox.com/2015/4/8/8372417/fem ... ality-poll

A decline meaning around one in three people who considered themselves feminists a mere two years ago have quit the movement.

What do you attribute to the decline? Do you consider it a good thing? Will there be a bounce back, or is this the beginning of a death spiral?

Personally I consider this to be a neutral thing. I'd wager that those quitting the movement are moderates disgusted by modern feminist rhetoric and feminist organizations blatant hypocrisy, as well as the misandry and gynocentrism. This will sadly mean that feminism becomes even more dominated by hateful strains of feminism, but that also quickens the time by which people will no longer tolerate or assist the movement in it's goals, and a new movement (Or potentially, a new wave of feminism that includes a stronger focus on mens issues) will kick off.

If a new wave is founded there may be a bounce back. I do think this is the beginning of the death spiral for the third wave, as more and more moderates are driven out of the movement.

In the interest of trying to throw up a neutral OP, despite my views being well known, an alternative explanation for the decline in feminism is internet anti-feminist campaigning, which I gather feminists regard as disinformation and lies about their movement. If this is the case, it would seem to indicate that anti-feminism is a stronger force in the internet age.

Some feminists may also blame media reporting on feminism as focusing on the most toxic and sexist strains of feminism and misrepresenting their movement, which may effect peoples willingness to identify as feminist.

[Gnork]

Might be because of the tumblertards and their nonsense...it's rather offputting to the masses. Well good, they're useful that way.

[Calimera II]

Blame the feminazis.

[Flyover]

The theory that they just don't agree with the perceived anti-men tendencies they assume to be prevalent is one I think to be most correct.

That being said, the definition of feminism requires that the end goal be equality, and clearly people aren't less pro-gender equality than they were before; they just don't see feminism as the way to achieve that.

It's probably a bad thing that feminism's name has been ruined by ignorant people on both sides- the men-haters and the woman-haters. The fedora-wearing "meninists" are just as much to blame as the "feminazis"

[Lordieth]

While I'm not surprised, given the negative attitudes towards feminism in recent years (mainly due to damaging actions by vocal extremists), it would be fair to point out that while there is likely a decline, the results may be skewed by the fact that given the negative attitudes towards feminism, people are far less willing to admit that they are feminists. If a word carries heavy negative connotations to outsiders, then people who identify with that word are less likely to admit to being associated with it.

The movement may have lost momentum, which would account for a slow decline, but a large drop would suggest to me that it's negative attitudes towards feminism that are a big contributing factor to the poll results, although I'm not disputing feminism may be in decline as well. The latter could compound the former, certainly, and it likely will, given time. Perhaps this is already happening, and people are being put off from feminism due to it being associated with negativity.

[Ostroeuropa]

Might be because of the tumblertards and their nonsense...it's rather offputting to the masses. Well good, they're useful that way.

I think the problem goes deeper than that frankly. I think scrutiny of their ideology, coupled with a constant trend of their claims being shown to be lies and debunked, has led to this problem. I don't think it's a minority of feminists. I think it's endemic to the movement and the way it has been operating. The tumblrettes are a symptom of a larger problem within feminism, that will only be addressed when they jettison oppressor-oppressed gender dynamic, and drop the gynocentric lens. Third wave feminism was defined as intersectional. If the fourth wave can define itself around being explicitly anti-gynocentric and intersectional, this may solve the problem.

Most people seem to accept that TERFs, for example, do not reflect on the third wave and are better understood as relics of the second wave.
In this way, a fourth wave that was inclusive of mens issues and anti-gynocentric would leave people perceiving tumblrettes and their kin as relics of the third wave and a bygone era. It would also mean all language that revolves around one gender oppressing another would be called out as bigotted nonsense belonging to the third wave, with discussions centering more on gender roles and how they effect and are enforced by both genders, and around legal double standards and correcting them.

If that can't be done, I suspect the movement will wither away into nothingness in time.

It's also worth pointing out that the mens rights movement is growing, and is comprised of a lot of ex-feminists. I think that may be indicative of the cause of the decline, but that could be confirmation bias.

The theory that they just don't agree with the perceived anti-men tendencies they assume to be prevalent is one I think to be most correct.

That being said, the definition of feminism requires that the end goal be equality, and clearly people aren't less pro-gender equality than they were before; they just don't see feminism as the way to achieve that.

It's probably a bad thing that feminism's name has been ruined by ignorant people on both sides- the men-haters and the woman-haters. The fedora-wearing "meninists" are just as much to blame as the "feminazis"

What's your basis for blaming MRAs for this? As far as i'm aware, they pretty much just point out when feminism fucks up things for men, and advocate for mens issues.
I'd say that blaming them for pointing out when feminism harms men isn't putting the blame in the right place, feminists are to blame for that.

For instance, MRAs talk a lot about the Duluth Model. Well, that's feminisms fault, what are you suggesting, that we not talk about the blatantly sexist policies that feminists enacted?

[Kincoboh]

Please not another one of these feminist threads. Is NSG like an exclave of /pol/ or reddit or something? Everyday there are people shitting on feminism here.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Another feminist thread. Whoop-de-fucking-doo.

[Flyover]

Might be because of the tumblertards and their nonsense...it's rather offputting to the masses. Well good, they're useful that way.

I think the problem goes deeper than that frankly. I think scrutiny of their ideology, coupled with a constant trend of their claims being shown to be lies and debunked, has led to this problem. I don't think it's a minority of feminists. I think it's endemic to the movement and the way it has been operating. The tumblrettes are a symptom of a larger problem within feminism, that will only be addressed when they jettison oppressor-oppressed gender dynamic, and drop the gynocentric lens. Third wave feminism was defined as intersectional. If the fourth wave can define itself around being explicitly anti-gynocentric and intersectional, this may solve the problem.

Most people seem to accept that TERFs, for example, do not reflect on the third wave and are better understood as relics of the second wave.
In this way, a fourth wave that was inclusive of mens issues and anti-gynocentric would leave people perceiving tumblrettes and their kin as relics of the third wave and a bygone era. It would also mean all language that revolves around one gender oppressing another would be called out as bigotted nonsense belonging to the third wave, with discussions centering more on gender roles and how they effect and are enforced by both genders, and around legal double standards and correcting them.

If that can't be done, I suspect the movement will wither away into nothingness in time.

It's also worth pointing out that the mens rights movement is growing, and is comprised of a lot of ex-feminists. I think that may be indicative of the cause of the decline, but that could be confirmation bias.

The theory that they just don't agree with the perceived anti-men tendencies they assume to be prevalent is one I think to be most correct.

That being said, the definition of feminism requires that the end goal be equality, and clearly people aren't less pro-gender equality than they were before; they just don't see feminism as the way to achieve that.

It's probably a bad thing that feminism's name has been ruined by ignorant people on both sides- the men-haters and the woman-haters. The fedora-wearing "meninists" are just as much to blame as the "feminazis"

What's your basis for blaming MRAs for this? As far as i'm aware, they pretty much just point out when feminism fucks up things for men, and advocate for mens issues.
I'd say that blaming them for pointing out when feminism harms men isn't putting the blame in the right place, feminists are to blame for that.

For instance, MRAs talk a lot about the Duluth Model. Well, that's feminisms fault, what are you suggesting, that we not talk about the blatantly sexist policies that feminists enacted?

I don't mean to imply that actual, legitimate men's rights groups are to blame, but rather that the people who claim that men are oppressed, need a menisism movement, etc. are the ones doing a lot of work to undermine feminism. It's not the people who believe that men should have equal custody rights (at least, not intentionally. I guess one could say that these people can claim feminism ignores men's issues -which would be incorrect- and maybe have impact there.) but the people who believe the new Mad Max movie represents feminist oppression of men by having a female character talk too much or whatever.
A man who wants the genders to be equal in all respects -from custody to pay- is a feminist, of course.

It's also worth pointing out that the mens rights movement is growing, and is comprised of a lot of ex-feminists. I think that may be indicative of the cause of the decline, but that could be confirmation bias.

I'm thinking a long pretty much the same lines. When people try to frame a conflict between feminism and men's rights when there clearly isn't one (except for the crazy people on both sides. The crazy people getting more attention is an unfortunate reality) there is legitimate harm to the worth-while goals of rational feminism.
I don't hold people who advocate for legitimate men's issues to be at blame, but those who frame a conflict between men and women. So the 4chan neckbeards, basically.

[Olivaero]

I'd say simply, it's bad press. A hell of a lot of bad press. Also it may be because there are quite a few places where moderate femenism has achieved quite a few of it's goals and radical femenism requires looking at society in a more critical way (regardless of how valid you think the criticism is) which people in my experience are extremely reluctant to do.

Also a lot of the current goals of feminism like ending Rape culture are seemingly un-reachable. Will rape culture ever be ended? Will gender bias ever be erased on a cultural level? In places where sexist laws still exist I'd expect to see continued feminist activity and self identification but outside of them... A quest to change a law or get a law implemented is real and tangible, something to fight for. A quest to change society is intangible and hard to rally around.

[Glorious KASSRD]

We should really just make a feminist mega thread and put all the feminist threads there.

[Confederate Ramenia]

lol

[Dumb Ideologies]

We should really just make a feminist mega thread and put all the feminist threads there.

Can it instead be some kind of megavortex that sucks everyone who keeps starting threads about this into an alternate universe full of carnivorous space squid?

[Giovenith]

We should really just make a feminist mega thread and put all the feminist threads there.

There already is one.

[Bjorden]

What do you attribute to the decline? Do you consider it a good thing? Will there be a bounce back, or is this the beginning of a death spiral?

To the extremism.
Of course.
I hope it become a death spiral.

[Confederate Ramenia]

Please not another one of these feminist threads. Is NSG like an exclave of /pol/ or reddit or something? Everyday there are people shitting on feminism here.

NSG isn't a hivemind, neither is /pol/, and reddit is a bunch of different hiveminds not working together. NSG isn't liberal or conservative or anti-feminist, it doesn't have an ideology.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Please not another one of these feminist threads. Is NSG like an exclave of /pol/ or reddit or something? Everyday there are people shitting on feminism here.

NSG isn't a hivemind, neither is /pol/, and reddit is a bunch of different hiveminds not working together. NSG isn't liberal or conservative or anti-feminist, it doesn't have an ideology.

It is united, though, by the conviction that this summer too may pass.

[Ifreann]

We should really just make a feminist mega thread and put all the feminist threads there.

There already is one.

I think there's been three at this point. Only the Gamergate one is still open.

[Ostroeuropa]

I think the problem goes deeper than that frankly. I think scrutiny of their ideology, coupled with a constant trend of their claims being shown to be lies and debunked, has led to this problem. I don't think it's a minority of feminists. I think it's endemic to the movement and the way it has been operating. The tumblrettes are a symptom of a larger problem within feminism, that will only be addressed when they jettison oppressor-oppressed gender dynamic, and drop the gynocentric lens. Third wave feminism was defined as intersectional. If the fourth wave can define itself around being explicitly anti-gynocentric and intersectional, this may solve the problem.

Most people seem to accept that TERFs, for example, do not reflect on the third wave and are better understood as relics of the second wave.
In this way, a fourth wave that was inclusive of mens issues and anti-gynocentric would leave people perceiving tumblrettes and their kin as relics of the third wave and a bygone era. It would also mean all language that revolves around one gender oppressing another would be called out as bigotted nonsense belonging to the third wave, with discussions centering more on gender roles and how they effect and are enforced by both genders, and around legal double standards and correcting them.

If that can't be done, I suspect the movement will wither away into nothingness in time.

It's also worth pointing out that the mens rights movement is growing, and is comprised of a lot of ex-feminists. I think that may be indicative of the cause of the decline, but that could be confirmation bias.





What's your basis for blaming MRAs for this? As far as i'm aware, they pretty much just point out when feminism fucks up things for men, and advocate for mens issues.
I'd say that blaming them for pointing out when feminism harms men isn't putting the blame in the right place, feminists are to blame for that.

For instance, MRAs talk a lot about the Duluth Model. Well, that's feminisms fault, what are you suggesting, that we not talk about the blatantly sexist policies that feminists enacted?

I don't mean to imply that actual, legitimate men's rights groups are to blame, but rather that the people who claim that men are oppressed, need a menisism movement, etc. are the ones doing a lot of work to undermine feminism. It's not the people who believe that men should have equal custody rights (at least, not intentionally. I guess one could say that these people can claim feminism ignores men's issues -which would be incorrect- and maybe have impact there.) but the people who believe the new Mad Max movie represents feminist oppression of men by having a female character talk too much or whatever.
A man who wants the genders to be equal in all respects -from custody to pay- is a feminist, of course.

It's also worth pointing out that the mens rights movement is growing, and is comprised of a lot of ex-feminists. I think that may be indicative of the cause of the decline, but that could be confirmation bias.

I'm thinking a long pretty much the same lines. When people try to frame a conflict between feminism and men's rights when there clearly isn't one (except for the crazy people on both sides. The crazy people getting more attention is an unfortunate reality) there is legitimate harm to the worth-while goals of rational feminism.
I don't hold people who advocate for legitimate men's issues to be at blame, but those who frame a conflict between men and women. So the 4chan neckbeards, basically.

MRAs didnt protest the mad max movie. This is actually an example of what I was talking about, where feminists claims have consistently been shown to be absolute lies and debunked, which has damaged their movement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8wTUMuAPPY

There is a definate conflict between current, third wave feminism, it's rhetoric, it's focus, and advocating for mens issues.
This is why I think there has been a decline. You're welcome to continue insisting that people who care about men and womens issues are feminists. It's just that the public, and thousands of ex-feminists, disagree with you.
Third wave feminism is riddled with pro-female bias. The oppressor-oppressed gender dynamic is a misandrist concept that is often peddled.
"Teach men not to rape", etc.

[Wallenburg]

Ostro, why can't you accept the true definition of feminism? It really does break my heart to see so many people pulled into the false belief that feminism represents oppression of male rights and/or special privileges for females.

[Confederate Ramenia]

NSG isn't a hivemind, neither is /pol/, and reddit is a bunch of different hiveminds not working together. NSG isn't liberal or conservative or anti-feminist, it doesn't have an ideology.

It is united, though, by the conviction that this summer too may pass.

Summer never begins and never ends. This summer is the first and the last.

[Dumb Ideologies]

There already is one.

I think there's been three at this point. Only the Gamergate one is still open.

Open to everything except feminism not being the devil.

[Ifreann]

It is united, though, by the conviction that this summer too may pass.

Summer never begins and never ends. This summer is the first and the last.

If this is the Land of Always Summer then where is my god of tits and wine?

---

I think there's been three at this point. Only the Gamergate one is still open.

Open to everything except feminism not being the devil.

Well obviously. Can't be having that sort of thing.

[Confederate Ramenia]

I think there's been three at this point. Only the Gamergate one is still open.

Open to everything except feminism not being the devil.

We should really just make a feminist mega thread and put all the feminist threads there.

Can it instead be some kind of megavortex that sucks everyone who keeps starting threads about this into an alternate universe full of carnivorous space squid?

You seem upset

[Imperializt Russia]

I'm rather unconvinced as to your take on what these figures mean.