The NationStates Feminist Thread

[Dakini]

Oh, and here's a Tokyo Metro ad from the 1970s about discouraging "manspreading". Apparently in the 1970s, Tokyo Metro went with a Hollywood theme on their manners posters.

It would surprise me if these sorts of posters took more than 10 years to appear after public transportation was first created, to be honest. Everyone hates dealing with assholes on the train/bus.

[Kelinfort]

Oh, and here's a Tokyo Metro ad from the 1970s about discouraging "manspreading". Apparently in the 1970s, Tokyo Metro went with a Hollywood theme on their manners posters.

It would surprise me if these sorts of posters took more than 10 years to appear after public transportation was first created, to be honest. Everyone hates dealing with assholes on the train/bus.

Really, the Great Dictator was a huge cultural symbol in the 70's?

Either way, it's a cool poster.

[The Mediterranean Republic]

1st wave feminism=right to vote=good
2nd=wage equality=good
3rd wave="I think I'm in love with you."
Woman: "ARE YOU OPPRESSING ME?! LET ME FREE BLEED ALL OVER YOU AND GET PAID MORE THAN YOU!!!"

[Kelinfort]

1st wave feminism=right to vote=good
2nd=wage equality=good
3rd wave="I think I'm in love with you."
Woman: "ARE YOU OPPRESSING ME?! LET ME FREE BLEED ALL OVER YOU AND GET PAID MORE THAN YOU!!!"

3Edgy5me

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Woman: "ARE YOU OPPRESSING ME?! LET ME FREE BLEED ALL OVER YOU AND GET PAID MORE THAN YOU!!!"

Oh silly, you're wrong and not good at this.

[Dakini]

Oh, and here's a Tokyo Metro ad from the 1970s about discouraging "manspreading". Apparently in the 1970s, Tokyo Metro went with a Hollywood theme on their manners posters.

It would surprise me if these sorts of posters took more than 10 years to appear after public transportation was first created, to be honest. Everyone hates dealing with assholes on the train/bus.

Really, the Great Dictator was a huge cultural symbol in the 70's?

...well, Japan is really late in getting movies from outside of Japan...

Either way, it's a cool poster.

Yeah, the train posters here are pretty entertaining. The ones for the platforms are often variations on "here are drunken salarymen about to fall on the tracks, please note that there are emergency stop buttons for just such an occasion", which I always find funny because in just about any other city it would be drunken students or something.

[Haktiva]

Any idea why women get more lenient sentences than men for the same crime on average?

[Des-Bal]

Any idea why women get more lenient sentences than men for the same crime on average?

Because there's sexism in society and looking at it through the lens of patriarchy is asinine.

[Chessmistress]

Any idea why women get more lenient sentences than men for the same crime on average?

Because circumstances counts and even the level of cruelty at which the event is perpetrated.
Also, patriarchy hurts males, too.
A combination of these three factors.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Any idea why women get more lenient sentences than men for the same crime on average?

Sexism, tis as simple as that.

[Chessmistress]

Any idea why women get more lenient sentences than men for the same crime on average?

Sexism, tis as simple as that.

Patriarchy = sexism. Even against males.
Glad we agree on it.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Sexism, tis as simple as that.

Patriarchy = sexism. Even against males.
Glad we agree on it.

Oh trust me, we have yet to agree on anything.

[Des-Bal]

Patriarchy = sexism. Even against males.
Glad we agree on it.

No that's ridiculous.

[Haktiva]

Any idea why women get more lenient sentences than men for the same crime on average?

Because circumstances counts and even the level of cruelty at which the event is perpetrated.
Also, patriarchy hurts males, too.
A combination of these three factors.

I prefer to call it tradcon shit since they're the ones who constantly call for the gender roles of men and women.

[New Edom]

"Patriarchy hurts men too" is a notion I don't trust and have rarely seen explained consistently by feminists or in a way that makes practical sense.

It's similar to 'feminists are working on issues that affect men'. Yet any time men discuss any of these issues, except for really one set, the 'men cannot act feminine without being shamed' set, most feminists don't want to hear about it. There is a belief that men talking about their issues are derailing the only important ones which are all about how to give women more agency in the eyes of feminists. The paradox of this is silly.

This is why some people point out that feminists are actually insisting that men remain in current gender roles, of having no complaints, bringing up no concerns, keeping their feelings to themselves, and being prepared to always be chivalrous--but in ways that encourage women to be independent of course. This is also why feminism must remain in crisis mode about everything, always, right down to whether or not women should actually have to tell someone to move out of their way or give them space on public transport, or whether or not a shirt is so offensive it triggered people, or whether clapping might trigger people.

When these ridiculous issues come up, the supposedly reasonable feminists are too busy or have nothing to say about it or don't even know the issues exist. These are other reasons why some people are hostile to this movement--because it's like talking to crazy people.

[Chessmistress]

Because circumstances counts and even the level of cruelty at which the event is perpetrated.
Also, patriarchy hurts males, too.
A combination of these three factors.

I prefer to call it tradcon shit since they're the ones who constantly call for the gender roles of men and women.

I already said that MRAs don't need to call it "patriarchy".
I suggested to call it "traditional society", "tradcon" is almost the same.
It seems that you have understand what is the real problem, for both women and men: "traditional society" (for us: patriarchy).
An example? Some males complains about alimonies...why they don't support closing wage gap? Closing wage gap = less alimonies.

[Des-Bal]

I already said that MRAs don't need to call it "patriarchy".
I suggested to call it "traditional society", "tradcon" is almost the same.
It seems that you have understand what is the real problem, for both women and men: "traditional society" (for us: patriarchy).
An example? Some males complains about alimonies...why they don't support closing wage gap? Closing wage gap = less alimonies.

1.Patriarchy is a ridiculous and innaccurate term predicated on the assumption that men do bad things to women and that is the way things work. It is sexist and idiotic.

2. The wage gap is pretty much closed. What tiny vestiges of it remain pale in comparison to the height or weight gap.

[Chessmistress]

"Patriarchy hurts men too" is a notion I don't trust and have rarely seen explained consistently by feminists or in a way that makes practical sense.

It's similar to 'feminists are working on issues that affect men'. Yet any time men discuss any of these issues, except for really one set, the 'men cannot act feminine without being shamed' set, most feminists don't want to hear about it. There is a belief that men talking about their issues are derailing the only important ones which are all about how to give women more agency in the eyes of feminists. The paradox of this is silly.

This is why some people point out that feminists are actually insisting that men remain in current gender roles, of having no complaints, bringing up no concerns, keeping their feelings to themselves, and being prepared to always be chivalrous--but in ways that encourage women to be independent of course. This is also why feminism must remain in crisis mode about everything, always, right down to whether or not women should actually have to tell someone to move out of their way or give them space on public transport, or whether or not a shirt is so offensive it triggered people, or whether clapping might trigger people.

When these ridiculous issues come up, the supposedly reasonable feminists are too busy or have nothing to say about it or don't even know the issues exist. These are other reasons why some people are hostile to this movement--because it's like talking to crazy people.

Don't put words in my mouth.
Patriarchy hurts males too it's a fact: call it "traditional society" or "tradcons", if you wish, the idea is still the same - that "traditional society" enforce males to be competitive, dominant, fearless, apparently without emotions, and so on. And then it judge them in consequence of their assumed role.
'Feminists are working on issues that affect men' is not exact: feminism is working just only to destroy patriarchy, but, of course, when patriarchy will go away even issues enforced on males by the patriarchy will go away (that's logic). But that doesn't mean the most oppressed gender should have to work on males' issues during the process of destroying patriarch - that would be ludicrous.

[Tahar Joblis]

I will agree that I haven't seen a train system with the sort of mostly ordered queuing that exists in Japan nor the precise stopping of the trains in very specific places. However, other trains do stop in roughly similar spots because the platform is typically about as long as the train (maybe a bit longer), so while the place you're waiting might not end up being the exact right place for the door, if you stand at one end of the platform, you're likely to get into a front car (maybe not the front car, but a front car) and you're going to end up at the opposite end of the train if you stand at the other end of the platform. A system where everyone piles onto the train at one end and fills up the train until it is full (as described by Vitaphone Racing) sounds really inefficient and weird.

You will get it sometimes with Amtrak and larger regional rail (e.g., usually not light rail), but yes, that would be the exception. It makes a certain amount of sense in that context, but that would be really getting off-subject.

Of course, there's also no indication that the West has the same sort of transit groping problems that Japan appears to have;

That depends how you define "the West". Groping is definitely a problem on the NYC subway (as far as I've heard) as are things like men masturbating while staring at women when it's not crowded... which just sounds revolting and is also a form of sexual harassment/assault.

For all that NYC gets horror stories circulated, that doesn't mean that those experiences are typical. Most women who ride the NYC subway are never groped or harassed, and half fully expect that if something bad happens to them, fellow passengers or transit authorities are likely to intervene on their behalf.

In the US, stories about individual cases of groping on the subway are circulated widely as outrageous, partly because of their relative rarity. The NYC subway system is not necessarily all that pleasant in general, but the reason for Japan's dramatic attempts at solution are two-fold:

1. Their problem is much worse.
2. Their society is willing enough to embrace sexism as a solution to the problem.

If you look at the societies which are putting up women's-only cars, they are generally considerably more patriarchal than the modern West, with considerably different attitudes towards sexuality and towards regulations that differentiate by sex.

Also, as mentioned by Chessmistress, Germany also has segregated cars and that's typically considered part of "the West".

Chessmistress is not a reliable source. I don't see any mention of German women-only passenger cars. Looking around, I note a German YouTube commenter seeming to find the idea very novel 5 years ago. Germany does have the curious practice of providing women's parking spaces, but all my attempts to verify Chessmistress's claim have come up short. Considering Chessmistress's track record, I suggest that you not rely on Chessmistress as a source for anything about the world.

Western feminists seem more concerned with "manspreading," which is to say, men sitting with their legs apart. (As opposed to women passengers choosing to take up additional space on the subway.)

1. I definitely witnessed an instance of "manspreading" on the Tokyo train just today on my way home from work. Two men were occupying 1.5 seats each and the train was crowded enough that people had to stand. This is not the first time I have seen this, nor is it likely to be the last (I have also witnessed men who have obviously had a few too many drinks pass out across several seats, this is in contrast to everyone else who just passes out sitting or standing up). People do not tend to take up extra seats with their bags around here. I might have ever seen it, but it's usually on trains that aren't crowded enough that people have to stand.

Speaking as someone who has been on trains and buses in a large number of metro areas, the US doesn't have a problem with men taking up multiple seats any more than it has a problem with women taking up multiple seats.

The specific use of the word "manspreading" is indicative of sexism on feminists' part, and also focusing on a behavior that has relatively little to do with seat space. For both men and women, using up multiple seats on a crowded train is typically the result of having one's feet up on the seat next to you, lying down, or taking up seat space with bags.

2. Tokyo Metro has posters which discourage this and other behaviours (including putting shopping bags on the seat, listening to loud music, blocking doors, applying makeup etc) and the other train companies around here have similar signage. The signs by Tokyo Metro usually feature androgynous cartooney animals though.

Yes, unlike the feminist assault on "manspreading."

3. There are definitely more articles about subway sexual assaults in NYC on a quick glance than there are about "manspreading" in general

Sort results by time, and you'll find that in recent time (e.g., last month) there's more about "manspreading."

, despite MRAs freaking the fuck out about anyone mentioning this term (e.g. some MRAs in London, Ontario decided they had to create a petition because the TTC in Toronto, Ontario might think about creating posters similar to the one in NYC which was really just part of a bigger campaign about being polite on the subway even though the TTC had not even announced it was going to do any sort of new politeness campaign). There are also really old posters produced for the NYC subway that discourage the exact same behaviour that just isn't called "manspreading" so people being annoyed by men sitting with their legs excessively far apart on the train isn't a new thing.

People being annoyed by men sitting with their legs far apart is a new thing.

People being annoyed by people taking up too much space on the subway is not. As you note, previous efforts in that regard have not singled out men. As I have pointed out, men are far from the only offenders when it comes to being a "space hog." As the cartoon you linked to notes, there are many ways in which people take up extra space.

The singular fixation (and sexism) of the term "manspreading" reflects poorly on feminists.

[Des-Bal]

Don't put words in my mouth.
Patriarchy hurts males too it's a fact: call it "traditional society" or "tradcons", if you wish, the idea is still the same - that "traditional society" enforce males to be competitive, dominant, fearless, apparently without emotions, and so on. And then it judge them in consequence of their assumed role.
'Feminists are working on issues that affect men' is not exact: feminism are working to destroy patriarchy, and when patriarchy will go away even issues enforced on males by the patriarchy will go away (that's logic). But that doesn't mean the most oppressed gender should have to work on males' issues during the process of destroying patriarch - that would be ludicrous.

Which is precisely why feminism is a terrible movement.

[Chessmistress]

Also, as mentioned by Chessmistress, Germany also has segregated cars and that's typically considered part of "the West".

Chessmistress is not a reliable source. I don't see any mention of German women-only passenger cars. Looking around, I note a German YouTube commenter seeming to find the idea very novel 5 years ago. Germany does have the curious practice of providing women's parking spaces, but all my attempts to verify Chessmistress's claim have come up short. Considering Chessmistress's track record, I suggest that you not rely on Chessmistress as a source for anything about the world.

Really?
I can have a bad memory, sometimes, and confusing some details, but I'm not a liar
http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/201 ... t-options/
As you can see, there's also Brazil and Philippines, now.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Chessmistress is not a reliable source. I don't see any mention of German women-only passenger cars. Looking around, I note a German YouTube commenter seeming to find the idea very novel 5 years ago. Germany does have the curious practice of providing women's parking spaces, but all my attempts to verify Chessmistress's claim have come up short. Considering Chessmistress's track record, I suggest that you not rely on Chessmistress as a source for anything about the world.

Really?
I can have a bad memory, sometimes, and confusing some details, but I'm not a liar
http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/201 ... t-options/
As you can see, there's also Brazil and Philippines, now.

Have you even read your own source?

[Russels Orbiting Teapot]

Really?
I can have a bad memory, sometimes, and confusing some details, but I'm not a liar
http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/201 ... t-options/
As you can see, there's also Brazil and Philippines, now.

That article doesn't really clearly state that there are women only train cars in Germany, and Germany is specifically absent from the list of countries using sex segregated train cars. It does mention women only parking spots and taxi services, though, which seem even less necessary.

Also a great point from your own article:

It is frustrating to know that these women-only spaces are a big move away from a gender equal society and from achieving real safety. Through sex-segregation, men do not need to adjust to a society in which women are equal and have the right to be in public spaces. The onus is on women to change.

[Aelex]

Patriarchy don't exist. Paternalist society however...

[Chessmistress]

Have you even read your own source?

Yes, I have read it some times ago, it says

In more than one dozen countries, women-only public transportation is chosen as a short-term (or mid-term!) solution to street harassment. These countries are as diverse as Japan, India, Brazil, the Philippines and UAE, and offer sex segregated compartments in their trains or subways.

Then it cites Germany women-only parking lots.
As said, I confused some details.
But the thing that women-only public transportation is important and already widespread worldwide is confirmed.