The NationStates Feminist Thread

[Dakini]

What happened to good feminists? Many (not all) modern feminists seem to be into just degrading disgusting and destroying men. Free bleeding?

Free bleeding was a 4chan prank.

Man hating?

Not part of feminism.

Free government provided birth control?

I'm not sure how this is "degrading, disgusting and destroying men", exactly... especially since you're probably not even talking about free government provided birth control, but insurance companies being required to provide birth control in the same way that they provide viagra.

I say not all cause Emma Watson has good ideas (I.E. He for she). Watson has spoken out on rights abuses in 3rd world non western nations (unlike PC libs)

and has said sexism hurts men because while women can't be strong in sexism, men can't be sensitive (I.E. "STOP CRYING AT YOUR MOM'S FUNERAL! YOU'RE A MAN!")

Nobody said that sexism didn't hurt men.

[Dakini]

Yes. But it's not just only a matter of space: space doesn't really matter so much, at least in most cases: manspreading take usually 1.2-1.3 times the normal space, not twice, and, far more important, most males among the ones who do it (less than 10%, for sure, probably even less than 5%) do it when there aren't other people right next them.
It's more a matter of male entitlement.

Viggo i-don't-remember-the-surname proposed that thing of optional sitting down toilets for males: Viggo is a male too. The article you linked is more propaganada than reality.

I'm totally entitled to feel comfortable on public transit.

You're definitely not entitled to feel comfortable on public transit and especially not if your slight increase in comfort comes at a large decrease in comfort for other riders.

Furthermore, the "manspreading" poster was just one in a series of etiquette posters put up by the NYC transit authority. If that one is an arrestable offense, then so are the others.

[Des-Bal]

Free bleeding was a 4chan prank.

I remember that. As I recall several feminists defended it here on NSG. A 4chan prank was indistinguishable from a legitimate feminist belief. You don't get to write it off as a ridiculous mischaracterization when you were so ready to drink the kool-aid. You never said "I support this" but you never said "this is obviously a prank." In fact when other people started laughing about it you were quick to call them misogynists and defend the article.

[Dakini]

Train and metro wagons reserved to women, as like in Japan, Germany and India: it would work fine.

But that's female privilege!

...actually, it's to prevent a whole lot of sexual assault.

I don't usually use the women-only train because it's inconvenient for my transfer and I do know women who have been groped. I'm mostly hoping that being a gaijin means they'll avoid me... and you know, I have pointy elbows and am capable of being loud.

[Dakini]

Free bleeding was a 4chan prank.

I remember that. As I recall several feminists defended it here on NSG. A 4chan prank was indistinguishable from a legitimate feminist belief. You don't get to write it off as a ridiculous mischaracterization when you were so ready to drink the kool-aid. You never said "I support this" but you never said "this is obviously a prank." In fact when other people started laughing about it you were quick to call them misogynists and defend the article.

Eh... there was a bit of a feminist thing that was actually called "free bleeding", but it was about women feeling comfortable with bleeding (it involved sitting somewhere quietly in your home with or without protection and just sort of meditating about it for a bit). It was hippie bullshit, but totally harmless. 4chan made it into this "don't wear any menstrual products and bleed everywhere!!!21!!" shit, which was stupid nonsense.

[Dakini]

No, that's avoiding harassment, according governments of Japan, Germany and India. Not being harassed isn't a privilege, is an human right.
India, Japan and Germany together are more than 4 times the population of USA, you know?

Do men also get their own metro wagons to avoid harassment?

Boys under the age of 18 (who also sometimes get groped... apparently there are dudes with a fetish for boys in school uniforms), also get to ride in the women-only car if they choose.

I have not heard of salarymen being intentionally groped.

[Fartsniffage]

I remember that. As I recall several feminists defended it here on NSG. A 4chan prank was indistinguishable from a legitimate feminist belief. You don't get to write it off as a ridiculous mischaracterization when you were so ready to drink the kool-aid. You never said "I support this" but you never said "this is obviously a prank." In fact when other people started laughing about it you were quick to call them misogynists and defend the article.

Eh... there was a bit of a feminist thing that was actually called "free bleeding", but it was about women feeling comfortable with bleeding (it involved sitting somewhere quietly in your home with or without protection and just sort of meditating about it for a bit). It was hippie bullshit, but totally harmless. 4chan made it into this "don't wear any menstrual products and bleed everywhere!!!21!!" shit, which was stupid nonsense.

I don't believe you. I've seen many patches of drying blood on the seats of buses all around Manchester. *nods*

[Diopolis]

I remember that. As I recall several feminists defended it here on NSG. A 4chan prank was indistinguishable from a legitimate feminist belief. You don't get to write it off as a ridiculous mischaracterization when you were so ready to drink the kool-aid. You never said "I support this" but you never said "this is obviously a prank." In fact when other people started laughing about it you were quick to call them misogynists and defend the article.

Eh... there was a bit of a feminist thing that was actually called "free bleeding", but it was about women feeling comfortable with bleeding (it involved sitting somewhere quietly in your home with or without protection and just sort of meditating about it for a bit). It was hippie bullshit, but totally harmless. 4chan made it into this "don't wear any menstrual products and bleed everywhere!!!21!!" shit, which was stupid nonsense.

It doesn't seem like feminists would, as a group, support something so obviously unsanitary. They're just a bit too reasonable for that. Just like how bra burning wasn't something that really happened.

[Dakini]

Eh... there was a bit of a feminist thing that was actually called "free bleeding", but it was about women feeling comfortable with bleeding (it involved sitting somewhere quietly in your home with or without protection and just sort of meditating about it for a bit). It was hippie bullshit, but totally harmless. 4chan made it into this "don't wear any menstrual products and bleed everywhere!!!21!!" shit, which was stupid nonsense.

I don't believe you. I've seen many patches of drying blood on the seats of buses all around Manchester. *nods*

Isn't Manchester supposed to be super sketchy? Maybe that was just regular blood...

Eh... there was a bit of a feminist thing that was actually called "free bleeding", but it was about women feeling comfortable with bleeding (it involved sitting somewhere quietly in your home with or without protection and just sort of meditating about it for a bit). It was hippie bullshit, but totally harmless. 4chan made it into this "don't wear any menstrual products and bleed everywhere!!!21!!" shit, which was stupid nonsense.

It doesn't seem like feminists would, as a group, support something so obviously unsanitary. They're just a bit too reasonable for that. Just like how bra burning wasn't something that really happened.

I know! Plus when menstrual products leak, where do you think they leak first? Do you have any idea how annoying it is to clean blood out of your clothes?

[Fartsniffage]

Isn't Manchester supposed to be super sketchy? Maybe that was just regular blood...

Not super sketchy.....no more than Detroit say.....

[Dakini]

Isn't Manchester supposed to be super sketchy? Maybe that was just regular blood...

Not super sketchy.....no more than Detroit say.....

Detroit is a little beyond super sketchy.

[Fartsniffage]

Not super sketchy.....no more than Detroit say.....

Detroit is a little beyond super sketchy.

...and your point?

[Diopolis]

I don't believe you. I've seen many patches of drying blood on the seats of buses all around Manchester. *nods*

Isn't Manchester supposed to be super sketchy? Maybe that was just regular blood...

It doesn't seem like feminists would, as a group, support something so obviously unsanitary. They're just a bit too reasonable for that. Just like how bra burning wasn't something that really happened.

I know! Plus when menstrual products leak, where do you think they leak first? Do you have any idea how annoying it is to clean blood out of your clothes?

Yes, actually(I hunt, and unlike most of my hunting buddies, don't mind butchering duty). It's a major pain.

[Nazi Flower Power]

But that's female privilege!

...actually, it's to prevent a whole lot of sexual assault.

I don't usually use the women-only train because it's inconvenient for my transfer and I do know women who have been groped. I'm mostly hoping that being a gaijin means they'll avoid me... and you know, I have pointy elbows and am capable of being loud.

I'm still not a fan of segregated trains.

This sounds like a problem that can be solved by cussing people out. Pointy elbows are also a viable option.

[Dakini]

...actually, it's to prevent a whole lot of sexual assault.

I don't usually use the women-only train because it's inconvenient for my transfer and I do know women who have been groped. I'm mostly hoping that being a gaijin means they'll avoid me... and you know, I have pointy elbows and am capable of being loud.

I'm still not a fan of segregated trains.

This sounds like a problem that can be solved by cussing people out. Pointy elbows are also a viable option.

Apparently the typical reaction of the crowd to seeing someone cussed out on the train is to pretend even harder that it isn't happening. Also, some women fear that the person who is groping them will turn violent if they do anything to stop it.

The woman I know who was groped on the train just started yelling "Chikan!" which resulted in everyone else pretending it wasn't happening and tried to nab the guy so she could extort money from him (being caught groping someone on the train can lead to a lot of very real legal and personal trouble, she was willing to settle for 300,000 yen instead of a trip to the police station).

[Nazi Flower Power]

I'm still not a fan of segregated trains.

This sounds like a problem that can be solved by cussing people out. Pointy elbows are also a viable option.

Apparently the typical reaction of the crowd to seeing someone cussed out on the train is to pretend even harder that it isn't happening. Also, some women fear that the person who is groping them will turn violent if they do anything to stop it.

The woman I know who was groped on the train just started yelling "Chikan!" which resulted in everyone else pretending it wasn't happening and tried to nab the guy so she could extort money from him (being caught groping someone on the train can lead to a lot of very real legal and personal trouble, she was willing to settle for 300,000 yen instead of a trip to the police station).

Sometimes, women just need to stop being so fearful.

[Dakini]

Apparently the typical reaction of the crowd to seeing someone cussed out on the train is to pretend even harder that it isn't happening. Also, some women fear that the person who is groping them will turn violent if they do anything to stop it.

The woman I know who was groped on the train just started yelling "Chikan!" which resulted in everyone else pretending it wasn't happening and tried to nab the guy so she could extort money from him (being caught groping someone on the train can lead to a lot of very real legal and personal trouble, she was willing to settle for 300,000 yen instead of a trip to the police station).

Sometimes, women just need to stop being so fearful.

I'm sorry, are you literally blaming women for trying to take the train in peace for being assaulted? This isn't even subtle victim blaming here.

Maybe men shouldn't grope women on the fucking train? Maybe crowds should support people who announce that they're being the victim of a crime instead of pretending that they don't see it happening?

[Nazi Flower Power]

Sometimes, women just need to stop being so fearful.

I'm sorry, are you literally blaming women for trying to take the train in peace for being assaulted? This isn't even subtle victim blaming here.

Maybe men shouldn't grope women on the fucking train?

Obviously, men shouldn't grope women on the train, but since we don't live in a perfect asshole-free world, it's just a practical reality that it would improve the situation if more women spoke up for themselves.

It doesn't mean groping is OK. It doesn't mean women are the source of the problem. It doesn't mean the police shouldn't do their own part by arresting gropers. It doesn't mean men shouldn't be taught to respect women's personal space.

I am just saying that there is something women could do that would help the situation -- i.e. speak up if someone is bothering them.

[Dakini]

I'm sorry, are you literally blaming women for trying to take the train in peace for being assaulted? This isn't even subtle victim blaming here.

Maybe men shouldn't grope women on the fucking train?

Obviously, men shouldn't grope women on the train, but since we don't live in a perfect asshole-free world, it's just a practical reality that it would improve the situation if more women spoke up for themselves.

It doesn't mean groping is OK. It doesn't mean women are the source of the problem. It doesn't mean the police shouldn't do their own part by arresting gropers. It doesn't mean men shouldn't be taught to respect women's personal space.

I am just saying that there is something women could do that would help the situation -- i.e. speak up if someone is bothering them.

Except that even when women do speak up, the rest of the people on the train ignore the situation and allow it to continue because they'd rather not be involved.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Obviously, men shouldn't grope women on the train, but since we don't live in a perfect asshole-free world, it's just a practical reality that it would improve the situation if more women spoke up for themselves.

It doesn't mean groping is OK. It doesn't mean women are the source of the problem. It doesn't mean the police shouldn't do their own part by arresting gropers. It doesn't mean men shouldn't be taught to respect women's personal space.

I am just saying that there is something women could do that would help the situation -- i.e. speak up if someone is bothering them.

Except that even when women do speak up, the rest of the people on the train ignore the situation and allow it to continue because they'd rather not be involved.

Obviously that is unhelpful.

[Dakini]

Except that even when women do speak up, the rest of the people on the train ignore the situation and allow it to continue because they'd rather not be involved.

Obviously that is unhelpful.

Right. So apparently your suggestion is not really going to help the situation.

I don't think that women-only cars are an ideal solution, but since some men are totally incapable of keeping their hands to themselves, it's better than nothing.

[Kelinfort]

Has anyone actually said feminism is about getting laid? I've mostly hard arguments that we are sex-starved and hate men because we aren't getting laid, not that feminism somehow gets us laid. Though I still fail to see how denying the sexuality of women does anything to help the feminist movement. Prostitution and pornography in which all partners are consenting should be embraced as a means of liberation.

Define "consenting".
Economical exploitation by the porn industry is not even close to "consent".
Economical exploitation of prostitutes by men is not even close to "consent".

So my female partner is exploited because she enjoys pornography?

Or is she exploiting?

[Nazi Flower Power]

Obviously that is unhelpful.

Right. So apparently your suggestion is not really going to help the situation.

I don't see why it wouldn't help, even if there is also room for improvement on other fronts. Just because speaking up doesn't always fix the situation doesn't mean it NEVER will, or that it won't at least draw attention to the extent of the problem.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Define "consenting".
Economical exploitation by the porn industry is not even close to "consent".
Economical exploitation of prostitutes by men is not even close to "consent".

So my female partner is exploited because she enjoys pornography?

Or is she exploiting?

She is a man in disguise.

[Kelinfort]

So my female partner is exploited because she enjoys pornography?

Or is she exploiting?

She is a man in disguise.

OMG NOT TRANS PPL WOMENS SPACES FOR VAGS ONLY!1!1!1!1!