The NationStates Feminist Thread

[Imyoji]

What happened to the woman's choice? That's my reply to anti-modesty feminists.

eh......

And?

Is there one that is less valid than the other or...??

[Meryuma]

eh......

And?

Is there one that is less valid than the other or...??

Haktiva probably wouldn't see it that way, but that comic illuminates an important feminist message. Neither modesty nor revealing clothing are inherently liberatory or oppressive. Choice is liberatory, coercion is oppressive.

[Aelex]

That's ridiculous. I've never been sexually attracted to any of my male or female friends. Including ones I've spent a great deal of time with.

This may be how you, personally, experience things but don't generalize it to everyone.

That's Freud's theory. Not saying it's always true but that it usually is.

[Natapoc]

That's ridiculous. I've never been sexually attracted to any of my male or female friends. Including ones I've spent a great deal of time with.

This may be how you, personally, experience things but don't generalize it to everyone.

That's Freud's theory. Not saying it's always true but that it usually is.

No one who studies psychology believes in Freud's theory's anymore. They are pseudoscience.

[Imyoji]

And?

Is there one that is less valid than the other or...??

Haktiva probably wouldn't see it that way, but that comic illuminates an important feminist message. Neither modesty nor revealing clothing are inherently liberatory or oppressive. Choice is liberatory, coercion is oppressive.

And I'm for the woman's right to choose?

I'm lost a teeny bit.

[New Edom]

And?

Is there one that is less valid than the other or...??

Haktiva probably wouldn't see it that way, but that comic illuminates an important feminist message. Neither modesty nor revealing clothing are inherently liberatory or oppressive. Choice is liberatory, coercion is oppressive.

Yes, but there's clearly a middle ground between choice and coercion. For instance having male and female changing rooms and family changing rooms is choice and yet allows for modesty. Modesty helps people establish general boundaries that then individuals can negotiate if they want to in some cases.

[Aelex]

No one who studies psychology believes in Freud's theory's anymore. They are pseudoscience.

Nop.

[Ostroeuropa]

You are referring to "Chanty Binx" also known as "Big Red". Hilarious.

I appreciate your words here. I think it would help a lot if there were more feminists with the perspective you offered who wanted to have conversations about human rights issues and also understood that these other persons have represented feminism to others. I think that unfortunately too many moderate feminists use the 'no true scotsman' argument. For instance I, as a Christian, would not deny that there are powerful and influential Christians who are homobphobic and promote violent militaristic foreign policies in their countries with which I disagree. I think that a person of integrity has to be honest about an ideology they belong to.

So fair enough. I doubt we will agree on everything but I respect your position. I don't mind hearing from radical feminists or feminists who are anti men's rights (if indeed that's what they are against--I'm sometimes not sure WHAT they are against exactly) but I would like to hear from a lot of others to a greater degree and I hope that will happen.

Chanty Binx. Thank you. I could not remember her name to save my life. (I secretly desire to see her launched into the sun. *poont* Begone!)

People with her attitude get the most attention. They're train wrecks and we all love to rubberneck. It becomes nearly impossible to overcome the impressions left by those people. One Binx destroys the face of a movement or group. All groups have them, too. They eclipse. Feminists with my perspective are often pushed aside because (let's be honest!) it's more entertaining to debate a radical person.

You seem capable of having a constructive conversation. That's good. Would you mind outlining briefly your views on sexism, it's causes, and it's effects? I have a suspicion about the type of feminist you are and i'd like to see if you're in keeping with my usual findings.

[Threlizdun]

No one who studies psychology believes in Freud's theory's anymore. They are pseudoscience.

Nop.

Freud contributed an immense deal to psychology for his recognition of the significance of the subconscious and the impacts of childhood events on later life, but he was wrong about many, many things. No, sexual tension is not a component of most friendships. Most friends feel uncomfortable with the notion of imaging their friends sexually. Saying "Freud said it's true" is not sufficient, unless you are about to start saying penis envy is real as well and everyone has an Oedipus Complex. If you can cite actual studies that indicate friends usually are sexually attracted to each other, then you can start making the argument. Otherwise, you're just making baseless assertions.

[Swith Witherward]

I think as well that moderates and followers of the pop versions of ideologies also disavow such people entirely as though they cannot imagine people could take them seriously. That's unfortunate, and results in things like Emma Watson acting like there's no reason on earth why someone might connect feminism with man hating. I think you are one of the few who has said "Yes, Binx is a feminist. No, her actions and words were not right."

So then out of curiousity, what do you think of the anti-modesty movement that some feminists are putting forward?

Modesty is subjective to culture. France's Cap d’Agde permits full nudity; Saudi Arabia doesn't permit much to be seen at all.

That said, people are free to present themselves however they choose. First impressions are everything however, and people will judge our character by what we promote. It's human nature. Attire speaks volumes.

Do I support the "anti-modesty" movement? Not really. Likewise, I don't support the modesty movement.

[New Edom]

I think as well that moderates and followers of the pop versions of ideologies also disavow such people entirely as though they cannot imagine people could take them seriously. That's unfortunate, and results in things like Emma Watson acting like there's no reason on earth why someone might connect feminism with man hating. I think you are one of the few who has said "Yes, Binx is a feminist. No, her actions and words were not right."

So then out of curiousity, what do you think of the anti-modesty movement that some feminists are putting forward?

Modesty is subjective to culture. France's Cap d’Agde permits full nudity; Saudi Arabia doesn't permit much to be seen at all.

That said, people are free to present themselves however they choose. First impressions are everything however, and people will judge our character by what we promote. It's human nature. Attire speaks volumes.

Do I support the "anti-modesty" movement? Not really. Likewise, I don't support the modesty movement.

I think modesty just socially exists, and an adaptable society rolls with the punches. What is modest now would be shocking a hundred years ago. At the same time you need a standard, and when people say "stop teaching our daughters modesty' I'm sure they don't MEAN 'let's embrace a clothing optional lifestyle" but it sure sounds like that.

Do you think having a basic standard for modesty for, say, schools, as long as it is fair and subject to inquiry and challenge is inherently oppressive to girls?

[Haktiva]

And?

Is there one that is less valid than the other or...??

Haktiva probably wouldn't see it that way, but that comic illuminates an important feminist message. Neither modesty nor revealing clothing are inherently liberatory or oppressive. Choice is liberatory, coercion is oppressive.

i'm just reminded on how feminism fights with itself about these issues.

[Natapoc]

i'm just reminded on how feminism fights with itself about these issues.

The vast majority agree with the basic sentiments.

And?

Is there one that is less valid than the other or...??

Haktiva probably wouldn't see it that way, but that comic illuminates an important feminist message. Neither modesty nor revealing clothing are inherently liberatory or oppressive. Choice is liberatory, coercion is oppressive.

I completely agree. This is one of the things I really appreciate about feminism.

If a woman wants to wear a burka she should be allowed to do that. If someone is pressuring a woman to wear a burka that's unacceptable.

If a woman wants to wear a bikini she should be allowed to do that. If someone is pressuring a woman to wear a bikini that's unacceptable.

If a woman wants to wear nothing at all she should be allowed to do that. If someone is pressuring a woman to wear nothing at all that's unacceptable.

It's exactly as you said: Choice is liberatory, coercion is oppressive

[Mushet]

Nop.

Freud contributed an immense deal to psychology for his recognition of the significance of the subconscious and the impacts of childhood events on later life, but he was wrong about many, many things. No, sexual tension is not a component of most friendships. Most friends feel uncomfortable with the notion of imaging their friends sexually. Saying "Freud said it's true" is not sufficient, unless you are about to start saying penis envy is real as well and everyone has an Oedipus Complex. If you can cite actual studies that indicate friends usually are sexually attracted to each other, then you can start making the argument. Otherwise, you're just making baseless assertions.

I think Freud was a very successful troll, and for that he has my respect.

If nothing else he's worth a few laughs.

[Chessmistress]

Haktiva probably wouldn't see it that way, but that comic illuminates an important feminist message. Neither modesty nor revealing clothing are inherently liberatory or oppressive. Choice is liberatory, coercion is oppressive.

I completely agree. This is one of the things I really appreciate about feminism.

If a woman wants to wear a burka she should be allowed to do that. If someone is pressuring a woman to wear a burka that's unacceptable.

If a woman wants to wear a bikini she should be allowed to do that. If someone is pressuring a woman to wear a bikini that's unacceptable.

If a woman wants to wear nothing at all she should be allowed to do that. If someone is pressuring a woman to wear nothing at all that's unacceptable.

It's exactly as you said: Choice is liberatory, coercion is oppressive

This is, the thought about burqa I mean, a minefield.
Don't you think there are women that are forced to wear burqa through coercion, in the form of social, religious and economical coercion (please note: I'm not talking about abuses, I'm talking about a more subtle ma far stronger myriad of social, religious and economical coercitive forces).
As Radical Feminist I oppose pornography because I think it's always economical coercion on women.
As Radical Feminist I think that both prostitution and pornography are NEVER a real choice for a woman.
That's why I'm not going to easily dismiss the problem of burqa and the inherent, unavoidable, coercion behind it.
I don't suffer of cognitive dissonance.

[Washington Resistance Army]

As Radical Feminist I oppose pornography because I think it's always economical coercion on women.

Er, you do know there's porn out there that doesn't feature women at all right? And how is it economic coercion if a woman willingly chooses to be a porn star?

You've dodged this point every time someones brought it up.

[New Edom]

i'm just reminded on how feminism fights with itself about these issues.

The vast majority agree with the basic sentiments.

Haktiva probably wouldn't see it that way, but that comic illuminates an important feminist message. Neither modesty nor revealing clothing are inherently liberatory or oppressive. Choice is liberatory, coercion is oppressive.

I completely agree. This is one of the things I really appreciate about feminism.

If a woman wants to wear a burka she should be allowed to do that. If someone is pressuring a woman to wear a burka that's unacceptable.

If a woman wants to wear a bikini she should be allowed to do that. If someone is pressuring a woman to wear a bikini that's unacceptable.

If a woman wants to wear nothing at all she should be allowed to do that. If someone is pressuring a woman to wear nothing at all that's unacceptable.

It's exactly as you said: Choice is liberatory, coercion is oppressive

So you believe that anything other than a clothing optionsl lifestyle is oppression?

[Biene]

Feminism is itself a symptom of male disposability. In a world where men have the upper hand over women, there would be no feminism. So its very existence contradicts its own theory of female oppression. I am saying this as a female.

[New Edom]

Feminism is itself a symptom of male disposability. In a world where men have the upper hand over women, there would be no feminism. So its very existence contradicts its own theory of female oppression. I am saying this as a female.

It would be nice if more feminists acknowledged issues of class and race in which some women have benefited over some men, or acknowledged ways in which male disposability have benefited women generally in particular societies. The idea that with shifting technology and science and the economics that shifted with it that women who were working and pursuing their careers needed their fair due as citizens is a very reasonable one. So are other human rights issues some feminists brought up about things like sexual assault--if they were presented as human rights issues and not as issues that almost entirely affect women.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I completely agree. This is one of the things I really appreciate about feminism.

If a woman wants to wear a burka she should be allowed to do that. If someone is pressuring a woman to wear a burka that's unacceptable.

If a woman wants to wear a bikini she should be allowed to do that. If someone is pressuring a woman to wear a bikini that's unacceptable.

If a woman wants to wear nothing at all she should be allowed to do that. If someone is pressuring a woman to wear nothing at all that's unacceptable.

It's exactly as you said: Choice is liberatory, coercion is oppressive

This is, the thought about burqa I mean, a minefield.
Don't you think there are women that are forced to wear burqa through coercion, in the form of social, religious and economical coercion (please note: I'm not talking about abuses, I'm talking about a more subtle ma far stronger myriad of social, religious and economical coercitive forces).
As Radical Feminist I oppose pornography because I think it's always economical coercion on women.
As Radical Feminist I think that both prostitution and pornography are NEVER a real choice for a woman.
That's why I'm not going to easily dismiss the problem of burqa and the inherent, unavoidable, coercion behind it.
I don't suffer of cognitive dissonance.

So, based on your logic (that prostitution and pornography are not real choices for women) Wal-Mart is oppressive because Wal-Mart is never a real (let alone decent) choice for anyone?

To be honest, I disagree with the assertion that porno and prostitution cannot be real choices for women (or people in general). They can be choices for people if they want to do it, but, the fact is that there is still a huge stigma against both sexes engaging in prostitution. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with prostitution as long as there are regulations in place that prohibit human trafficking victims working in the field and other types of protections for professional prostitutes.

Now, by keeping it illegal? You're simply fostering a black market where no protections exist and you cannot regulate the industry.

[Chessmistress]

Feminism is itself a symptom of male disposability. In a world where men have the upper hand over women, there would be no feminism. So its very existence contradicts its own theory of female oppression. I am saying this as a female.

So, you're a female? Interesting...it's the first time that I see a female talking about male disposability, a concept that is typical of MRA/MRM...meh...it's also a concept embraced by The Femitheist, but in a very different, and even more sinister, light...

Now, by keeping it illegal? You're simply fostering a black market where no protections exist and you cannot regulate the industry.

Nordic Model is not about "keeping prostitution illegal": it's about legalising prostitution and by so making really free all prostitutes, while, at the very same time, criminalising customers. It was adopted first by Sweden, then by Norway, Canada, Iceland and Northern Ireland.
On February 2014 European Parliament voted to extend it to all Europe.
It'll be law in all Europe by 2020.
It's a very feminist law: freedom for women, criminalisation of male abusers.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Well isn't this interesting by the way. Just took the test.

Liberal feminist 37
Women of Color 32
Conservative 25
Socialist feminist 19
Radical feminist 17
Cultural feminist 12

Ha, look at that. You're a feminist.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

So then out of curiousity, what do you think of the anti-modesty movement that some feminists are putting forward?

What happened to the woman's choice? That's my reply to anti-modesty feminists.

I've never heard of feminists being "anti-modesty." More like allowing women to not be "modest" if they don't feel like it.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Feminism is itself a symptom of male disposability. In a world where men have the upper hand over women, there would be no feminism. So its very existence contradicts its own theory of female oppression. I am saying this as a female.

Being female doesn't prevent you from being wrong.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Feminism is itself a symptom of male disposability. In a world where men have the upper hand over women, there would be no feminism. So its very existence contradicts its own theory of female oppression. I am saying this as a female.

So, you're a female? Interesting...it's the first time that I see a female talking about male disposability, a concept that is typical of MRA/MRM...meh...it's also a concept embraced by The Femitheist, but in a very different, and even more sinister, light...

Male disposability is a concept worth discussing when you are looking at homelessness, prison sentencing, conscription laws, and the shortage of resources for male victims of domestic violence.

But it doesn't negate the power over society that has historically been in the hands of men, and in some areas still is. This is something where the effects of class and race are important to account for. Men from the upper classes still hold disproportionate amounts of power, and in the past they were even more dominant -- but then men from disadvantaged classes are treated like crap.