The NationStates Feminist Thread

[Ostroeuropa]

By the way italios.

Feminism should be the belief that women who don't have gender equality should get some.

This is a gynocentric understanding of the situation. It's one of the manners in which feminism has oppressed men. All you've managed to do is reveal you're one of those "Moderate" feminists who is in fact a sexist anyway, but because they aren't a complete lunatic, thinks they must be fine.

The fact you think this is a sufficient solution to the problem, is part of the problem with feminists in general.

Unless that is, you're going to come out in favor of the MRM in addition to feminism.

[Galloism]

A transphobe.

Is that it?

Well, I don't know that much about her other than her rhetoric was so hateful a college barred her from coming because they were worried she would incite violence.

Also, for a new article, she sent in a picture of herself with tape over her mouth, and the first comment on the article was "is there any way we can make that tape a permanent feature?"

Which made me chuckle.

[Ostroeuropa]

Is that it?

Well, I don't know that much about her other than her rhetoric was so hateful a college barred her from coming because they were worried she would incite violence.

Also, for a new article, she sent in a picture of herself with tape over her mouth, and the first comment on the article was "is there any way we can make that tape a permanent feature?"

Which made me chuckle.

She also said men should be rounded up and put into camps. Class act in general.

[Galloism]

Well, I don't know that much about her other than her rhetoric was so hateful a college barred her from coming because they were worried she would incite violence.

Also, for a new article, she sent in a picture of herself with tape over her mouth, and the first comment on the article was "is there any way we can make that tape a permanent feature?"

Which made me chuckle.

She also said men should be rounded up and put into camps. Class act in general.

We need to send her a tiny little black stick-on mustache.

[Aelex]

Are you saying that in France the right is for decriminalising prostitution, more or less like the proposal of Amnesty International, when instead the socialists are for criminalisation of purchasers?

A little more search made me aware that the "délit" of "Racolage Passif" was indeed abolished and that purchaser have been fully criminalized.

Pffff... It's quite sad for me to continue to be proud of calling myself Socialist when they are screwing themselves so much by acting like freaking liberals.
Anyway, it's not like it's such a big shock for me as Hollande's government, between Macron's betrayal of the workers and Cahuzac swiss account, had been nothing but a harsh disappointment for the people of France.
I would almost be glad to know that he has no chance to be re-elected ever again if it doesn't meant that we will have fucking Sarko l'amerloque once more...

The only thing I hope is that we will get Valls to the presidency in 2022. He, at least, may be the first competent and charismatic president we had since Chirac.

[Ostroeuropa]

She also said men should be rounded up and put into camps. Class act in general.

We need to send her a tiny little black stick-on mustache.

I'm not sure if it was her, or another hired and paid professional feminist who basically loled at her own sons suicide. I'll try and find out.

EDIT:
Ah, that was Julie "A good part — and definitely the most fun part — of being a feminist is about frightening men." Birchill. They sort of blend together after a while.

[Val Halla]

Is that it?

Well, I don't know that much about her other than her rhetoric was so hateful a college barred her from coming because they were worried she would incite violence.

Also, for a new article, she sent in a picture of herself with tape over her mouth, and the first comment on the article was "is there any way we can make that tape a permanent feature?"

Which made me chuckle.

I think her intention is taping everyone other than herself, which is a problem with a lot of people like her.

We need to send her a tiny little black stick-on mustache.

I'm not sure if it was her, or another hired and paid professional feminist who basically loled at her own sons suicide. I'll try and find out.

One thing that unites all humanity is that people can be real dicks sometimes.

[Italios]

I'd also like to discuss my alleged whitewashing. Again, you misdefined it. I am not skating over the bad things some feminists did. I am not ignoring or turning a blind eye to it. I understand that some "feminists" are not doing the right thing. I understand that some are bigoted and/or sexist. By doing so, you cannot accuse me of whitewashing: I simply stated that I don't believe they should be called "feminists". They do not deserve that. Feminism should be the belief that women who don't have gender equality should get some. Not that the ones who do have it should become oppressive of men. What I'm trying to say - and you clearly don't understand it - is that the so-called feminists who are sexist, bigoted, and unaccepting of men joining the movement shouldn't be called something they're not.

If you read it, you didn't understand it.

As for the whitewashing, you're working from your conclusion and not evaluating the movement fairly. You're a presuppositionalist, like lots of feminists, so it's useless to talk to you. You have your conclusion that feminism = something good, and refuse to accept that this isn't the case.

If you're also an atheist or something, you should recognize that behavior your engaging in and why it's wrong.

I read it, and I understood it. You're not understanding what I'm saying.

I understand that not all parts of feminism are good. Like I said, I have not ever disregarded or pretended the lunatics who call themselves "feminists" do not exist. What I'm saying, and what you're not understanding, is that they shouldn't be called feminists because feminism should be supporting women who don't have equal rights, not ones who have it and want more. (Read: want to oppress men)

I am not saying, however, that feminism is all good things. It's not. What you're saying - that feminism isn't good - is true, but you are also saying untrue things - that I'm saying it's positive overall. By exchanging my should with your is, you're twisting my words. Please, read it exactly how it looks.

Also, I'm confused about your last statement. I am an atheist, though technically my family very loosely practices, and so I do, a religion. But like I said, we're not devout, we don't attend a synagogue, and I've asked, and no one believes in God. But what I'm confused about it what you said: "You should recognise your behaviour and understand why it's wrong." Are you saying atheism is wrong, or something else? I don't follow you.

[Italios]

She also said men should be rounded up and put into camps. Class act in general.

We need to send her a tiny little black stick-on mustache.

This made me laugh harder than it should've. But she'd be perfect for the role of Hitlerina.

[Italios]

By the way italios.

Feminism should be the belief that women who don't have gender equality should get some.

This is a gynocentric understanding of the situation. It's one of the manners in which feminism has oppressed men. All you've managed to do is reveal you're one of those "Moderate" feminists who is in fact a sexist anyway, but because they aren't a complete lunatic, thinks they must be fine.

The fact you think this is a sufficient solution to the problem, is part of the problem with feminists in general.

Unless that is, you're going to come out in favor of the MRM in addition to feminism.

Sorry I didn't see this post....


I have expressed before, while you are not here, that I support both MRM and feminism, both to a degree. I will find you those posts and I recently made an OOC views Factbook that mentions I support both.

[Ostroeuropa]

If you read it, you didn't understand it.

As for the whitewashing, you're working from your conclusion and not evaluating the movement fairly. You're a presuppositionalist, like lots of feminists, so it's useless to talk to you. You have your conclusion that feminism = something good, and refuse to accept that this isn't the case.

If you're also an atheist or something, you should recognize that behavior your engaging in and why it's wrong.

I read it, and I understood it. You're not understanding what I'm saying.

I understand that not all parts of feminism are good. Like I said, I have not ever disregarded or pretended the lunatics who call themselves "feminists" do not exist. What I'm saying, and what you're not understanding, is that they shouldn't be called feminists because feminism should be supporting women who don't have equal rights, not ones who have it and want more. (Read: want to oppress men)

I am not saying, however, that feminism is all good things. It's not. What you're saying - that feminism isn't good - is true, but you are also saying untrue things - that I'm saying it's positive overall. By exchanging my should with your is, you're twisting my words. Please, read it exactly how it looks.

Also, I'm confused about your last statement. I am an atheist, though technically my family very loosely practices, and so I do, a religion. But like I said, we're not devout, we don't attend a synagogue, and I've asked, and no one believes in God. But what I'm confused about it what you said: "You should recognise your behaviour and understand why it's wrong." Are you saying atheism is wrong, or something else? I don't follow you.

No, I was saying that an atheist would recognize presuppositionalism as a faulty method of thinking, since the religious often use it.

Whether the net effect has been good is utterly irrelevant.

You can argue that enslaving a bunch of people to improve the living standards of even more people is a net positive, but it's morally repugnant.

The question is, has feminism been a net good for men, or has it mostly oppressed them?

Because the benefits women gain from a supremacy movement aren't relevant to whether or not it's an equality movement, or a supremacy movement.

You determine that by looking at how it treats the other.

[Ostroeuropa]

By the way italios.



This is a gynocentric understanding of the situation. It's one of the manners in which feminism has oppressed men. All you've managed to do is reveal you're one of those "Moderate" feminists who is in fact a sexist anyway, but because they aren't a complete lunatic, thinks they must be fine.

The fact you think this is a sufficient solution to the problem, is part of the problem with feminists in general.

Unless that is, you're going to come out in favor of the MRM in addition to feminism.

Sorry I didn't see this post....


I have expressed before, while you are not here, that I support both MRM and feminism, both to a degree. I will find you those posts and I recently made an OOC views Factbook that mentions I support both.

Then I don't actually have a problem with you. No need to source it. But this is going to be common for people who identify as feminist, instead of feminist+mra, or something. It's considered by many people implicit that you don't support the MRM if you identify as a pure feminist.

That's feminists fault, by the way. They started this feud and insisted the MRM was anti-feminist.

[Italios]

Sorry I didn't see this post....


I have expressed before, while you are not here, that I support both MRM and feminism, both to a degree. I will find you those posts and I recently made an OOC views Factbook that mentions I support both.

Then I don't actually have a problem with you. No need to source it.

Alright then. To be more precise on my ideas of supporting both MRM and feminism, since Chessmistress said that's impossible a day or so ago....

I do not support either gender being on top of the other. They deserve equality. It's just that some men's issues are completely overlooked, for example, male rape. We need to stop listening to those "feminists" whinging about how men raping men or women raping men is okay, and start listening to the men have been raped or abused by other women, because right now, they're completely underrepresented and unheard. There are also some women - I specifically think of parts of the Middle East on this - who do not have full gender equality yet. However, other women, in other parts of the world, do.

[Jute]

Then I don't actually have a problem with you. No need to source it.

Alright then. To be more precise on my ideas of supporting both MRM and feminism, since Chessmistress said that's impossible a day or so ago....

I do not support either gender being on top of the other. They deserve equality. It's just that some men's issues are completely overlooked, for example, male rape. We need to stop listening to those "feminists" whinging about how men rapping men or women raping men is okay, and start listening to the men have been raped or abused by other women, because right now, they're completely underrepresented and unheard. There are also some women - I specifically think of parts of the Middle East on this - who do not have full gender equality yet. However, other women, in other parts of the world, do.

As Nana has shown before (through the link), it's absolutely wrong to assume no feminists talk about the issues men faces. They even claim it to be a feminist issue. And it's not like there's full gender equality anywhere in the world, really. Saudi-Arabia is just much worse than other nations.
Therefore, most feminists, including those who aren't "radical". deny any need for another gender equality movement, and instead opt to criticize all female supremacists who claim to be part of feminism. Since feminism is about equality, these have no place among the other feminists.

[Italios]

Alright then. To be more precise on my ideas of supporting both MRM and feminism, since Chessmistress said that's impossible a day or so ago....

I do not support either gender being on top of the other. They deserve equality. It's just that some men's issues are completely overlooked, for example, male rape. We need to stop listening to those "feminists" whinging about how men rapping men or women raping men is okay, and start listening to the men have been raped or abused by other women, because right now, they're completely underrepresented and unheard. There are also some women - I specifically think of parts of the Middle East on this - who do not have full gender equality yet. However, other women, in other parts of the world, do.

As Nana has shown before (through the link), it's absolutely wrong to assume no feminists talk about the issues men faces. They even claim it to be a feminist issue. And it's not like there's full gender equality anywhere in the world, really. Saudi-Arabia is just much worse than other nations.

Okay Jute. I do not think that all feminists overlook it. I understand that some do support men's rights and issues. However, in this case I was talking about the feminists who are doing the opposite: insisting that male rape and abuse is okay.

[Val Halla]

Denial is such a sad thing, but RadFems seem to enjoy it. Denial of male rape, denial of the existence of trans people, denial of their hugely flawed arguments..

[Dumb Ideologies]

Alright then. To be more precise on my ideas of supporting both MRM and feminism, since Chessmistress said that's impossible a day or so ago....

I do not support either gender being on top of the other. They deserve equality. It's just that some men's issues are completely overlooked, for example, male rape. We need to stop listening to those "feminists" whinging about how men rapping men or women raping men is okay, and start listening to the men have been raped or abused by other women, because right now, they're completely underrepresented and unheard. There are also some women - I specifically think of parts of the Middle East on this - who do not have full gender equality yet. However, other women, in other parts of the world, do.

As Nana has shown before (through the link), it's absolutely wrong to assume no feminists talk about the issues men faces. They even claim it to be a feminist issue. And it's not like there's full gender equality anywhere in the world, really. Saudi-Arabia is just much worse than other nations.

Talk is cheap. Actions speak much louder. Feminist activism does very little to help men, and in some areas feminist organization's bias as an insider group on legislation relating to gender holds back dealing with men's issues and sweeps them under the carpet. You've had this explained to you a number of times in this thread now, so this is beyond disingenuous at this point.

[Italios]

Denial is such a sad thing, but RadFems seem to enjoy it. Denial of male rape, denial of the existence of trans people, denial of their hugely flawed arguments..

Just saying, Val Halla, but instead of just continuing to post here about how wrong, stupid, unfair, etc. radfems are, and how they're in denial, you should actually bring up sources, articles, maybe elaborate a little more about how you feel about it, or take more direct action on this. I agree that radical feminists are raving lunatics. But I am not repeatedly making comments about it. Please don't take offense, I just feel like you're just kind of.... Insulting them, without actually backing your point up.

[Jute]

As Nana has shown before (through the link), it's absolutely wrong to assume no feminists talk about the issues men faces. They even claim it to be a feminist issue. And it's not like there's full gender equality anywhere in the world, really. Saudi-Arabia is just much worse than other nations.

Talk is cheap. Actions speak much louder. Feminist activism does very little to help men, and in some areas feminist organization's bias as an insider group on legislation relating to gender holds back dealing with men's issues and sweeps them under the carpet. You've had this explained to you a number of times in this thread now, so this is beyond disingenuous at this point.

I didn't deny (or intent to deny at least) that there are problems, but more division isn't going to help with achieving set goals by anyone.

As Nana has shown before (through the link), it's absolutely wrong to assume no feminists talk about the issues men faces. They even claim it to be a feminist issue. And it's not like there's full gender equality anywhere in the world, really. Saudi-Arabia is just much worse than other nations.

Okay Jute. I do not think that all feminists overlook it. I understand that some do support men's rights and issues. However, in this case I was talking about the feminists who are doing the opposite: insisting that male rape and abuse is okay.

Yeah, but you made it seem like "feminists" in general condone that, which largely really isn't the case as far as I know

[Val Halla]

Denial is such a sad thing, but RadFems seem to enjoy it. Denial of male rape, denial of the existence of trans people, denial of their hugely flawed arguments..

Just saying, Val Halla, but instead of just continuing to post here about how wrong, stupid, unfair, etc. radfems are, and how they're in denial, you should actually bring up sources, articles, maybe elaborate a little more about how you feel about it, or take more direct action on this. I agree that radical feminists are raving lunatics. But I am not repeatedly making comments about it. Please don't take offense, I just feel like you're just kind of.... Insulting them, without actually backing your point up.

Hmm. http://www.transadvocate.com/you-might- ... _10226.htm

11.) Fearmonger about the rape/violence threat trans women pose to cis women in the women’s restroom.

One of the main bullshit things.

[Italios]

Just saying, Val Halla, but instead of just continuing to post here about how wrong, stupid, unfair, etc. radfems are, and how they're in denial, you should actually bring up sources, articles, maybe elaborate a little more about how you feel about it, or take more direct action on this. I agree that radical feminists are raving lunatics. But I am not repeatedly making comments about it. Please don't take offense, I just feel like you're just kind of.... Insulting them, without actually backing your point up.

Hmm. http://www.transadvocate.com/you-might- ... _10226.htm

11.) Fearmonger about the rape/violence threat trans women pose to cis women in the women’s restroom.

One of the main bullshit things.

Alright, that's good enough for me. Or should I say, bad things, that reeks of lies.

[Aelex]

Talk is cheap. Actions speak much louder. Feminist activism does very little to help men, and in some areas feminist organization's bias as an insider group on legislation relating to gender holds back dealing with men's issues and sweeps them under the carpet. You've had this explained to you a number of times in this thread now, so this is beyond disingenuous at this point.

I didn't deny (or intent to deny at least) that there are problems, but more division isn't going to help with achieving set goals by anyone.

Okay Jute. I do not think that all feminists overlook it. I understand that some do support men's rights and issues. However, in this case I was talking about the feminists who are doing the opposite: insisting that male rape and abuse is okay.

I didn't deny (or intent to deny at least) that there are problems, but more division isn't going to help with achieving set goals by anyone./quote]
The problem is that the mainstream group from which people are departing have no intention of achieving the said goals for everyone and this is the very reason multiple groups are seceding in the first place.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Talk is cheap. Actions speak much louder. Feminist activism does very little to help men, and in some areas feminist organization's bias as an insider group on legislation relating to gender holds back dealing with men's issues and sweeps them under the carpet. You've had this explained to you a number of times in this thread now, so this is beyond disingenuous at this point.

I didn't deny (or intent to deny at least) that there are problems, but more division isn't going to help with achieving set goals by anyone.

Neither is writing off a whole movement where a sizeable portion is genuinely committed to addressing issues caused by the biases and silences resulting from feminism's gynocentric perspective combined with insider status. So stop that.

[Italios]

Talk is cheap. Actions speak much louder. Feminist activism does very little to help men, and in some areas feminist organization's bias as an insider group on legislation relating to gender holds back dealing with men's issues and sweeps them under the carpet. You've had this explained to you a number of times in this thread now, so this is beyond disingenuous at this point.

I didn't deny (or intent to deny at least) that there are problems, but more division isn't going to help with achieving set goals by anyone.

Okay Jute. I do not think that all feminists overlook it. I understand that some do support men's rights and issues. However, in this case I was talking about the feminists who are doing the opposite: insisting that male rape and abuse is okay.

Yeah, but you made it seem like "feminists" in general condone that, which largely really isn't the case as far as I know

"We need to stop listening to these "feminists""

I'm snipping a piece for the statement of mine you are referring to. I understand why you might think that because you were not following every little thing Ostro and I discussed. If you go back in this thread, you'll see that I oppose those type of feminists from even being call that, that's why it's in quotations. So basically, if you were keeping up, you'd know what I meant only the feminists who didn't support men's rights/radfems.

[Jute]

Just saying, Val Halla, but instead of just continuing to post here about how wrong, stupid, unfair, etc. radfems are, and how they're in denial, you should actually bring up sources, articles, maybe elaborate a little more about how you feel about it, or take more direct action on this. I agree that radical feminists are raving lunatics. But I am not repeatedly making comments about it. Please don't take offense, I just feel like you're just kind of.... Insulting them, without actually backing your point up.

Hmm. http://www.transadvocate.com/you-might- ... _10226.htm

11.) Fearmonger about the rape/violence threat trans women pose to cis women in the women’s restroom.

One of the main bullshit things.

That's the site I found when I went to look for what "TERF" actually means. This is the petty kind of thing they seem to do sometimes: link