The NationStates Feminist Thread

[Geilinor]

Social conservatives are much more for porn bans than most socially liberal feminists are.

And yet the labour party...
And let's not ignore that the biggest obstacle to legalizing prostitution is feminists.
The left can just IGNORE conservatives, we did over gay marriage. We can't ignore feminists.
We have to break their power instead. So long as they hold sway in the left wing, a liberal society is not possible.

http://www.menweb.org/lacecur1.htm

Worth reading btw.

I know feminists who support legalizing prostitution.

[New Edom]

Ostro is right. Feminist leaders generally use the argument of "do you not support women's rights? Do you hate women?" to silence opponents of the application of their ideas, not of the principles generally.

I have several examples.

1. Censoring, silencing, blocking people who are in disagreement with feminist academic thought from speaking at public events at universities. Then moderate feminists refuse to see this as a problem and call it 'protest'. (Warren Farrell protest for instance at U of T)

2. Vilifying any feminist who doesn't toe the party line as anti-feminist. (any popular feminist leader talking about Christina Hoff Sommers, Wendy McElroy, Katie Roiphe or other feminists who are not misandrist.)

3. Insisting that anyone who doesn't think affirmative consent laws are a good idea is 'against consent'. (almost ny affirmative consent advocate when questioned about the impracticability of changing laws to support affirmative consent)

4. Wanting re-education of men who have never said or expressed any view that they are against equal rights for women (psychologist who wanted re-education of rugby team at UMW. article here

5. Insistence on feminist theoretical Rape Culture being the basis for anti-campus rate programs vs. RAINN's approach which focuses on criminal behaviour and community response--which has incidentally been consistently demonstrated to work well. Response from leading feminists? This will lead to victim blaming. in spite of evidence to the contrary and despite RAINN's consistent support for victims.

6. Increasing support for feminism openly in Western European governments, including Sweden's feminist foreign policy.

Hey feminists, why not try this? Why not admit that it is just an ideology, not reality itself?

If an electronics company produces crappy TVs but is otherwise a reliable company, then honesty when confronted with customer complaints about the crappy TVs is better than pretending that they're wonderful or looking for someone else to blame. If they do the latter, then people will start wondering about their other products and consider buying from someone else. This is how it goes.

Well, feminism exists in a marketplace of ideas. Either they adapt or people will find some other stall that provides something with more satisfaction in it.

[Ostroeuropa]

And yet the labour party...
And let's not ignore that the biggest obstacle to legalizing prostitution is feminists.
The left can just IGNORE conservatives, we did over gay marriage. We can't ignore feminists.
We have to break their power instead. So long as they hold sway in the left wing, a liberal society is not possible.

http://www.menweb.org/lacecur1.htm

Worth reading btw.

I know feminists who support legalizing prostitution.

As I pointed out in my post, that doesn't alter the fact that the ones in institutional positions of power aren't like them.
Sad as it may be, it's easier to amass power and influence by being a fear mongerer and a propagandist than it is standing for civil rights.
I've also said in this thread several times that if feminists can organize into a fourth wave that rejects gynocentric interpretations of gender relations, and espouses liberal values, i'll call myself a fourth wave feminist. Until then, I see it as a detrimental movement.

[Chessmistress]

would feminists ever advocate for free sperm as part of medical insurance? You know, if a woman want to get pregnant or something.

Already request in Sweden by "F!" party.
Gudrun Schyman declared that free artificial insemination is likely to be used more and more in future.
I think it's just only fair: women should be free to have babies without being virtually enforced to have sex with males, no offence. That's a reproductive right, it doesn't hurts males.

[Aelex]

Already request in Sweden by "F!" party.
Gudrun Schyman declared that free artificial insemination is likely to be used more and more in future.
I think it's just only fair: women should be free to have babies without being virtually enforced to have sex with males, no offence. That's a reproductive right, it doesn't hurts males.

As long as male are free to have babies without being enforced to have sex with female (yeah I'm talking about surrogate mother).

[Ostroeuropa]

No, but seriously, this is a great page.
http://www.menweb.org/lacecur1.htm

It sums up pretty well what the problem is, and why Matriarchy is a valid term.

[Meryuma]

Erm... no? That's a nonsensical stereotype made up by people who cannot conceive of men and women relating in a platonic way.

Well, even if Freud sayed a lot of bullshit, I think he was true when he sayed that platonnical relation were impossible, sex is always latent behind everything.

I have plenty of friends who I'm not attracted to, what about you?

Actually, the first wave of feminism was by-and-large not very fond of birth control. Now, I agree that it's a liberal policy that has little to do with feminism, but the idea that first wave feminism would be in favor of it is a bit suspect.

Emma Goldman? Who's that?

Queer theory already demonstrated that some (and maybe most) "straightness" is just only the result of heteronormativity enforced by the patriarchal system.

Aren't you a TERF? Queer theory is not yours.

[Chessmistress]

Already request in Sweden by "F!" party.
Gudrun Schyman declared that free artificial insemination is likely to be used more and more in future.
I think it's just only fair: women should be free to have babies without being virtually enforced to have sex with males, no offence. That's a reproductive right, it doesn't hurts males.

As long as male are free to have babies without being enforced to have sex with female (yeah I'm talking about surrogate mother).

It's very different: many people view surrogated mothers as an exploitation of women, when instead a sperm donation doesn't exploit males. Though both are voluntary, the economical exploitation in the first case is quite obiouvs, and it doesn't happen in the second case. Also, the outcomes are very different: it's like comparing FGM to male circumcision - both things are wrong but the first is REALLY worse.

[Aelex]

It's very different: many people view surrogated mothers as an exploitation of women, when instead a sperm donation doesn't exploit males. Though both are voluntary, the economical exploitation in the first case is quite obiouvs, and it doesn't happen in the second case. Also, the outcomes are very different: it's like comparing FGM to male circumcision - both things are wrong but the first is REALLY worse.

Sperm donation does exploit males, even if it exploit them only from 5 seconds to 10 minutes.
Plus, if you support the right of women of, to paraphrase a song of an artist I basically worship, faire un bébé toute seule (make a baby alone) then what credible reason; with the exception of the money since if it was legalized Capitalism would immediatly fill this newly open market,and is already, as much as for surragatory pregnancy; can you give me which could oppose it to be allowed for men too?
Or maybe you just want, as I sayed earlier, to give rights to women and women only and will do anything you can to empeach men from having them too.

[Aelex]

I have plenty of friends who I'm not attracted to, what about you?

Even the most pure friendship is always filled of sexual tension. If you never feeled the beginning of a sentiment for one of your friend, then you simply didn't have passed enough time with them.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Just occurred to me that this shit is nothing new for the left wing.

Feminism is the modern "Communism." It's split the left wing and driven a lot of liberal minded people into the arms of the right wing out of fear for the authoritarianism of the left.

And this is where I stopped reading. Do you even think about what you post anymore? Feminism = Communism? Communism = Authoritarianism? What are you even on about?

[New Edom]

And again the dodging and deflection. Good general points were made, and attempts at distraction and avoiding dealing with the points Ostro made.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

And again the dodging and deflection. Good general points were made, and attempts at distraction and avoiding dealing with the points Ostro made.

I didn't even read it, I saw the comparison between communism and feminism and just lost all respect for the poster.

Not that I really had any left, but yeah, it went into the negatives.

[Des-Bal]

I didn't even read it, I saw the comparison between communism and feminism and just lost all respect for the poster.

Not that I really had any left, but yeah, it went into the negatives.

Then you've done yourself a disservice. He didn't say feminists are communists he drew a fairly accurate comparison to what's happening to feminism and what happened to communism.

[New Edom]

And again the dodging and deflection. Good general points were made, and attempts at distraction and avoiding dealing with the points Ostro made.

I didn't even read it, I saw the comparison between communism and feminism and just lost all respect for the poster.

Not that I really had any left, but yeah, it went into the negatives.

Des-Bal made a good point. I will make another. He was not saying the ideologies are the same. He was saying that similar tactics are employed against any critics of feminist views or feminist policies. Do yourself a favour: read it with an open mind. Consider whether it is the idea of equality that is being criticized or whether it is behaviour that is being objected to.

[Ostroeuropa]

Just occurred to me that this shit is nothing new for the left wing.

Feminism is the modern "Communism." It's split the left wing and driven a lot of liberal minded people into the arms of the right wing out of fear for the authoritarianism of the left.

And this is where I stopped reading. Do you even think about what you post anymore? Feminism = Communism? Communism = Authoritarianism? What are you even on about?

Well if you kept reading, or understood historical context behind the comparison, it might have made sense to you. You seem to have a serious problem with being unable to finish posts and then assuming you know the content of them, almost like you prejudge things on a regular basis based on how they appear. I wonder if there is a word for that.

(Sure, it's a cheap shot. I don't care, you annoyed me.) I suppose if you're not going to bother reading all the post, do me a favor and don't bother reading any of it, because it's getting a little irritating to watch you post about how you can't manage to read more than a few sentences before your feelz send you into a tailspin. The link contained in the post is the better part of it, in my opinion.

[Natapoc]

I have plenty of friends who I'm not attracted to, what about you?

Even the most pure friendship is always filled of sexual tension. If you never feeled the beginning of a sentiment for one of your friend, then you simply didn't have passed enough time with them.

That's ridiculous. I've never been sexually attracted to any of my male or female friends. Including ones I've spent a great deal of time with.

This may be how you, personally, experience things but don't generalize it to everyone.

[Ostroeuropa]

Even the most pure friendship is always filled of sexual tension. If you never feeled the beginning of a sentiment for one of your friend, then you simply didn't have passed enough time with them.

That's ridiculous. I've never been sexually attracted to any of my male or female friends. Including ones I've spent a great deal of time with.

This may be how you, personally, experience things but don't generalize it to everyone.

Well what do you know. We agree on something.

I've had sexual tension with friends, going both ways, sometimes reciprocated, sometimes not, but to say it's always present isn't true.
I've had lesbian friends who I had no attraction to, as the obvious first example.

[Natapoc]

If an electronics company produces crappy TVs but is otherwise a reliable company, then honesty when confronted with customer complaints about the crappy TVs is better than pretending that they're wonderful or looking for someone else to blame. If they do the latter, then people will start wondering about their other products and consider buying from someone else. This is how it goes.

Well, feminism exists in a marketplace of ideas. Either they adapt or people will find some other stall that provides something with more satisfaction in it.

Feminism is not a product. It's an ideology about gender equality and it's not going to change its goals just because some members of a privilege class get upset about it. It does not really matter if you like feminism or not.

There is no compromise on gender equality and it does not matter if some men have problems with that.

[Geilinor]

As long as male are free to have babies without being enforced to have sex with female (yeah I'm talking about surrogate mother).

It's very different: many people view surrogated mothers as an exploitation of women, when instead a sperm donation doesn't exploit males. Though both are voluntary, the economical exploitation in the first case is quite obiouvs, and it doesn't happen in the second case. Also, the outcomes are very different: it's like comparing FGM to male circumcision - both things are wrong but the first is REALLY worse.

How does paying people for sperm not happen?

[Geilinor]

If an electronics company produces crappy TVs but is otherwise a reliable company, then honesty when confronted with customer complaints about the crappy TVs is better than pretending that they're wonderful or looking for someone else to blame. If they do the latter, then people will start wondering about their other products and consider buying from someone else. This is how it goes.

Well, feminism exists in a marketplace of ideas. Either they adapt or people will find some other stall that provides something with more satisfaction in it.

Feminism is not a product. It's an ideology about gender equality and it's not going to change its goals just because some members of a privilege class get upset about it. It does not really matter if you like feminism or not.

There is no compromise on gender equality and it does not matter if some men have problems with that.

You can't demand that all people who support gender equality use your label.

[Natapoc]

Feminism is not a product. It's an ideology about gender equality and it's not going to change its goals just because some members of a privilege class get upset about it. It does not really matter if you like feminism or not.

There is no compromise on gender equality and it does not matter if some men have problems with that.

You can't demand that all people who support gender equality use your label.

Okay. And?

[New Edom]

If an electronics company produces crappy TVs but is otherwise a reliable company, then honesty when confronted with customer complaints about the crappy TVs is better than pretending that they're wonderful or looking for someone else to blame. If they do the latter, then people will start wondering about their other products and consider buying from someone else. This is how it goes.

Well, feminism exists in a marketplace of ideas. Either they adapt or people will find some other stall that provides something with more satisfaction in it.

Feminism is not a product. It's an ideology about gender equality and it's not going to change its goals just because some members of a privilege class get upset about it. It does not really matter if you like feminism or not.

There is no compromise on gender equality and it does not matter if some men have problems with that.

Oh, where to begin.

First: the market place of ideas is an analogy. The idea is is that people have the right to examine whatever ideas they want and decide if it applies to their principles or other aspects of their lives, and decide on that basis whether or not they support them.

Second: 'there is no compromise on gender equality". What do you mean? Do you mean that when feminists say something about gender equality it is automatically true and should not be examined by others as to whether they believe it or agree with it?

[Geilinor]

You can't demand that all people who support gender equality use your label.

Okay. And?

Criticism of the current feminist movement does not mean a rejection of gender equality. It only means a criticism of the methods, and feminism should be able to address concerns without shrugging them off with a cry of "misogynist!"

[Natapoc]

Feminism is not a product. It's an ideology about gender equality and it's not going to change its goals just because some members of a privilege class get upset about it. It does not really matter if you like feminism or not.

There is no compromise on gender equality and it does not matter if some men have problems with that.

Oh, where to begin.

First: the market place of ideas is an analogy. The idea is is that people have the right to examine whatever ideas they want and decide if it applies to their principles or other aspects of their lives, and decide on that basis whether or not they support them.

Second: 'there is no compromise on gender equality". What do you mean? Do you mean that when feminists say something about gender equality it is automatically true and should not be examined by others as to whether they believe it or agree with it?

Of course people have the right to examine ideas and decide if they want to support them. Feminists disagree with each other on all sorts of things about gender. What we agree on is that women should have equal rights as men.

You seem to believe that feminists are against people having the right to form their own opinions. I'm unsure why you would think that.