Europe's Problem With Islam

[Golyurus]

Well, it does. If you read the Quran, where stands that infidels must be killed, and knowing that the Quran is, for muslims, the literal word of God, I can see where this goes.

Lastly, the return of jihadis is seen as a threat, and I understand why.

No, the Qur'an does not simply offer a blanket statement to kill infidels. It permits killing in the specific context of Muslims being at war with the Meccans, and only permits attacking infidels if they attack them first, and demands that if they surrender that they are forgiven and treated fairly. It explicitly prohibits agressive warfare.

Also, while the Qur'an is the word of God it is not all meant to be taken literally. It states that while some of it is literal, much of it is meant to serve as metaphors, and that it is the message that is always true, even if the events are not always meant to be taken literally. So no, Qur'anic literalism is viewed as heretical by most Muslims. As jihadists violate the Qur'an and sharia, most Muslims are unwilling to accept them as actual Muslims, as Islam is a faith that promotes orthopraxy over orthodoxy.

That doesnt deny that Islam developed differently than Christianity, and that Christianity is different than Islam and can cause friction. Especially when people have islam as primal identity and live in one country.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

What I admit is that Moroccans are overrepresented in Dutch crime statistics. The idea that there is a 'clash of cultures', I find ridiculous. You know why Christians don't have crusades any more? Because Europe is safe. Europe has known peace for seventy years now. Turkey, a country of around 90% Muslims, is almost as peaceful as nations get, and a good secular example. You know why there are so many Muslim terrorists? Because their nations burn. Europe has left their nations to die after colonisation ended, and we poured oil on the fires during the Cold War. That's not the violent tendency of Islam. That's violence using a religion that already existed.

Do you know what the first Caliphate looked like? Sure, war and violence on the borders, but inside, enormous tolerance. While Spain was burning heretics on the stake in the name of Christ, the Caliphate was a place of learning and tolerance. During the European dark ages, the Middle East reached enlightenment. Now, the tables have turned, but that does not make Islam inherently opposed to certain values. Islam does not clash with Dutch culture. Name me one position inherent to Islam, not inherent to Christianity, that opposes Dutch values.

I try to keep it short;

1) There is a clash of culture, admit it. When two cultures disagree with something there is a clash. That is happening.

This is not unique to Muslim immigrants.

2) We dont have crusades because, again, Christianity developed different.

Neither do they.

[North Calaveras]

Europe definatley has a problem with Islam, for that matter a lot of countrys do.

we can go on all day about how " Oh well it's a minority doing this" but just look at modern terrorist organizations, a SHIT TON of them are islamic, there numbers FAR surpass any other movements for the most part and they commit BY FAR the most attacks. Everyday we here about 40 or 50 people getting killed in a suicide blast it seems. The Christians in the middle east, especially where ISIS is are being slaughtered wholesale(but you don't see many threads on this in NS and im not even christian)

It literally is a case of " Not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslim"

blame it on the book, blame it on the west, blame it on the politicians of these countrys...at the end of the day that's what it is, those representing or trying to represent Islam and to say it's a tiny minority is a fucking joke at best.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

What I admit is that Moroccans are overrepresented in Dutch crime statistics. The idea that there is a 'clash of cultures', I find ridiculous. You know why Christians don't have crusades any more? Because Europe is safe. Europe has known peace for seventy years now. Turkey, a country of around 90% Muslims, is almost as peaceful as nations get, and a good secular example. You know why there are so many Muslim terrorists? Because their nations burn. Europe has left their nations to die after colonisation ended, and we poured oil on the fires during the Cold War. That's not the violent tendency of Islam. That's violence using a religion that already existed.

Do you know what the first Caliphate looked like? Sure, war and violence on the borders, but inside, enormous tolerance. While Spain was burning heretics on the stake in the name of Christ, the Caliphate was a place of learning and tolerance. During the European dark ages, the Middle East reached enlightenment. Now, the tables have turned, but that does not make Islam inherently opposed to certain values. Islam does not clash with Dutch culture. Name me one position inherent to Islam, not inherent to Christianity, that opposes Dutch values.

I try to keep it short;

1) There is a clash of culture, admit it. When two cultures disagree with something there is a clash. That is happening.
2) We dont have crusades because, again, Christianity developed different.
3) Turkey peaceful? You sure with the Kurds? You sure with Erdogan? You sure with all thise coups?
4) Not relevant to internal politics; violent Islam was also before the cold war.

And lastly;
Polygamous marriage

1. There is no clash of cultures. Not more so than anywhere else, really. Many Muslims integrate just fine, and many hold on to their values without coming into conflict. Why should they have to adopt our views? We live in a free country, those people can do whatever they want. Within the restraints of the law, of course, as do we all.

2. No, we don't have Crusades because Europe has grown peaceful. Or do you like to tell Joseph Kony that Christianity is the religion of peace? People have developed. Countries have developed. Religion has not changed in and of itself. Turkey shows this very clearly, as does the Muslim minority in Russia. Really, the reason there is a difference between Islam and Christianity today lies in the difference between areas, not the difference between cultures. As shown, of course, by the Arab spring.

3. Oh, yeah, there is a conflict with the Kurds in the east, granted. That is what makes Turkey less than peaceful, ethnic violence. But both the Kurds and the Turks are Sunnis, so religion isn't at the foundation of that conflict. Really, it's the same thing that happened during The Troubles in Britain. Not inherent to Islam. For the rest, Turkey is a peaceful, secular state with a dick for a president. Many people have protested against him already, and he is wildly unpopular. Did you know Turkey banned hijabs from public buildings and schools?

4. Oh yeah, violent Islam was there before the cold war. As goes for any religion. There have always been violent denominations of every single religion alive. That does not prove inherent violence of any one religion. And believe me, it only got bad after the second world war. All those states were doomed to fail from the beginning, because of the way Europeans drew the maps with complete disregard to ethnic differences and religious strife. That's not a problem of Islam. The cold war, the troubles with Israel made it worse. Far worse.

5. Polygamous marriage. Something done by certain Muslim sects as well as Christian sects. Both banned under Dutch law. Your point?

[North Calaveras]

I try to keep it short;

1) There is a clash of culture, admit it. When two cultures disagree with something there is a clash. That is happening.

This is not unique to Muslim immigrants.

2) We dont have crusades because, again, Christianity developed different.

Neither do they.

ISIS is committing large scale Jihad as I type this message.

[Bezkoshtovnya]

Europe definatley has a problem with Islam, for that matter a lot of countrys do.

we can go on all day about how " Oh well it's a minority doing this" but just look at modern terrorist organizations, a SHIT TON of them are islamic, there numbers FAR surpass any other movements for the most part and they commit BY FAR the most attacks. Everyday we here about 40 or 50 people getting killed in a suicide blast it seems. The Christians in the middle east, especially where ISIS is are being slaughtered wholesale(but you don't see many threads on this in NS and im not even christian)

It literally is a case of " Not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslim"

blame it on the book, blame it on the west, blame it on the politicians of these countrys...at the end of the day that's what it is, those representing or trying to represent Islam and to say it's a tiny minority is a fucking joke at best.

Except it is the minority so it's really not a joke at all. All religions have extremists. Hell, all ideas have extremists.
And these extremists commit acts of terror every day as well.

[Neo Telangana]

4. Oh yeah, violent Islam was there before the cold war. As goes for any religion. There have always been violent denominations of every single religion alive. That does not prove inherent violence of any one religion. And believe me, it only got bad after the second world war. All those states were doomed to fail from the beginning, because of the way Europeans drew the maps with complete disregard to ethnic differences and religious strife. That's not a problem of Islam. The cold war, the troubles with Israel made it worse. Far worse.

Some religious ARE inherently violent when compared to others. Islam, Christianity, and Judaism (i.e. the Abrahamic religions) are ALL inherently violent when compared to religions like Jainism. I challenge anyone to find me some violent Jains fighting in the name of Jainism. It is impossible, because it directly contradicts core Jain principles; the same is NOT true for the Abrahamic religions.

[Lalaki]

.

[North Calaveras]

Europe definatley has a problem with Islam, for that matter a lot of countrys do.

we can go on all day about how " Oh well it's a minority doing this" but just look at modern terrorist organizations, a SHIT TON of them are islamic, there numbers FAR surpass any other movements for the most part and they commit BY FAR the most attacks. Everyday we here about 40 or 50 people getting killed in a suicide blast it seems. The Christians in the middle east, especially where ISIS is are being slaughtered wholesale(but you don't see many threads on this in NS and im not even christian)

It literally is a case of " Not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslim"

blame it on the book, blame it on the west, blame it on the politicians of these countrys...at the end of the day that's what it is, those representing or trying to represent Islam and to say it's a tiny minority is a fucking joke at best.

Except it is the minority so it's really not a joke at all. All religions have extremists. Hell, all ideas have extremists.
And these extremists commit acts of terror every day as well.

The extremists you mention are so tiny in comparison to Islamic ones that it's pathetic at best. Even the Lords Resistance Army(a christian terrorist organization) is pathetic, small and weak compared to islamic groups, not to mention they tend to keep their business local, unlike Islam which dosn't mind attacking foreign targets.

Radical Islam isn't a local threat, it's more in line with Communist insurgents in the cold war era, it wants to spread across the globe and gain support, except instead of marxism it wants to spread shariah.

Please go ahead and give me examples of large terrorist groups that even have a chance against Islamic ones.

[Neo Telangana]

Except it is the minority so it's really not a joke at all. All religions have extremists. Hell, all ideas have extremists.
And these extremists commit acts of terror every day as well.

NO. This post betrays a poor understanding of the term "extremist", and assumes that all "extremists" are violent, which is NOT the case. See my post below:

Can't all ideology cause people to do bad things? I've seen it happen with pratically anything.

Not really. I think this is a common misconception. The terms "radical" or "extremist", when applied to any ideology, do not refer to a misinterpretation of the ideology, but a strict adherence to the principles of the ideology. For example, the Jain religion advocates non-violence and believes that all life is sacred, so Jain extremists (i.e. Jains who strictly adhere to the principles of their ideology) refuse to even participate in agriculture, since the activity of planting and harvesting crops can kill insects and other organisms. It would be quite impossible for a Jain extremist to become a suicide bomber, as this directly contradicts the central tenets of the Jain ideology.

Now, compare this to Islam. When we talk about Islamic extremists, we are not talking about Muslims who "misinterpret" their religion; rather, we are talking about Muslims who take their religion very seriously and live it to its logical extreme. When an Islamic extremist group like ISIS massacres non-Muslims and takes their women into sexual slavery, their actions do not go against any central tenet of Islam. On the contrary, groups like ISIS can find explicit scriptural support for their actions in their own holy book. The leader of ISIS, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, has a PhD in Islamic Studies and knows his religion quite well. He is following true Islam better than the vast majority of Muslims.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

This is not unique to Muslim immigrants.

Neither do they.

ISIS is committing large scale Jihad as I type this message.

So not a crusade except in the metaphorical sense.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

4. Oh yeah, violent Islam was there before the cold war. As goes for any religion. There have always been violent denominations of every single religion alive. That does not prove inherent violence of any one religion. And believe me, it only got bad after the second world war. All those states were doomed to fail from the beginning, because of the way Europeans drew the maps with complete disregard to ethnic differences and religious strife. That's not a problem of Islam. The cold war, the troubles with Israel made it worse. Far worse.

Some religious ARE inherently violent when compared to others. Islam, Christianity, and Judaism (i.e. the Abrahamic religions) are ALL inherently violent when compared to religions like Jainism. I challenge anyone to find me some violent Jains fighting in the name of Jainism. It is impossible, because it directly contradicts core Jain principles; the same is NOT true for the Abrahamic religions.

What, 'Thou shalt not kill' not anti-war enough for you?

No religion is inherently violent. A religion is an idea. A mindset. Those things are not inherently violent. People still have a choice, as shown by the hundreds upon thousands upon millions of peaceful Christians, Jews and Muslims around. Clearly, religion isn't as violent as you are led to believe. I haven't seen my Muslim friend from highschool take a scimitar to my atheistic skull yet. I haven't seen my Catholic teacher take a broadsword to school yet to lob my atheistic head from my shoulders. At my university, there are Jews, Christians and Muslims alike, one more peaceful than the next. So, no. Religion is not inherently violent.

[North Calaveras]

Europe definatley has a problem with Islam, for that matter a lot of countrys do.

we can go on all day about how " Oh well it's a minority doing this" but just look at modern terrorist organizations, a SHIT TON of them are islamic, there numbers FAR surpass any other movements for the most part and they commit BY FAR the most attacks. Everyday we here about 40 or 50 people getting killed in a suicide blast it seems. The Christians in the middle east, especially where ISIS is are being slaughtered wholesale(but you don't see many threads on this in NS and im not even christian)

It literally is a case of " Not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslim"

blame it on the book, blame it on the west, blame it on the politicians of these countrys...at the end of the day that's what it is, those representing or trying to represent Islam and to say it's a tiny minority is a fucking joke at best.

No, generalizing nearly two billion people is the joke.

Why do these people hate us? "They hate our freedoms," as Ted Cruz would passionately put it in front in his voters. But that's not really the case. We've been messing in the Islamic world for many decades. We deposed a democratic government in Iran (1953). We supported the people who would later build Al-Qaeda during the Cold War. We invaded Iraq in 2003, which created the conditions for the rise of ISIL.

Power hungry manipulators are using Islam as a cover to exact revenge on the west, and also to subjugate their people.

The Islamic world has been fucking with the rest of the world for centuries...so this whole " Decades" thing is weak.

invading iraq didn't set up ISIS, leaving did.

[North Calaveras]

ISIS is committing large scale Jihad as I type this message.

So not a crusade except in the metaphorical sense.

...

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

No, generalizing nearly two billion people is the joke.

Why do these people hate us? "They hate our freedoms," as Ted Cruz would passionately put it in front in his voters. But that's not really the case. We've been messing in the Islamic world for many decades. We deposed a democratic government in Iran (1953). We supported the people who would later build Al-Qaeda during the Cold War. We invaded Iraq in 2003, which created the conditions for the rise of ISIL.

Power hungry manipulators are using Islam as a cover to exact revenge on the west, and also to subjugate their people.

The Islamic world has been fucking with the rest of the world for centuries...so this whole " Decades" thing is weak.

invading iraq didn't set up ISIS, leaving did.

It isn't the falling from a plane that gets you, really. It's hitting the ground.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

No, generalizing nearly two billion people is the joke.

Why do these people hate us? "They hate our freedoms," as Ted Cruz would passionately put it in front in his voters. But that's not really the case. We've been messing in the Islamic world for many decades. We deposed a democratic government in Iran (1953). We supported the people who would later build Al-Qaeda during the Cold War. We invaded Iraq in 2003, which created the conditions for the rise of ISIL.

Power hungry manipulators are using Islam as a cover to exact revenge on the west, and also to subjugate their people.

The Islamic world has been fucking with the rest of the world for centuries...so this whole " Decades" thing is weak.

invading iraq didn't set up ISIS, leaving did.

More like we've been fucking with them for centuries.

[North Calaveras]

Some religious ARE inherently violent when compared to others. Islam, Christianity, and Judaism (i.e. the Abrahamic religions) are ALL inherently violent when compared to religions like Jainism. I challenge anyone to find me some violent Jains fighting in the name of Jainism. It is impossible, because it directly contradicts core Jain principles; the same is NOT true for the Abrahamic religions.

What, 'Thou shalt not kill' not anti-war enough for you?

No religion is inherently violent. A religion is an idea. A mindset. Those things are not inherently violent. People still have a choice, as shown by the hundreds upon thousands upon millions of peaceful Christians, Jews and Muslims around. Clearly, religion isn't as violent as you are led to believe. I haven't seen my Muslim friend from highschool take a scimitar to my atheistic skull yet. I haven't seen my Catholic teacher take a broadsword to school yet to lob my atheistic head from my shoulders. At my university, there are Jews, Christians and Muslims alike, one more peaceful than the next. So, no. Religion is not inherently violent.

relgion/ideology is definatley inherently violent

marxism literally advocates violent overthrow(i used to be a communist and it's literally in the manifesto.

I guess NAZISM is not inherently violent by your definition.

[North Calaveras]

The Islamic world has been fucking with the rest of the world for centuries...so this whole " Decades" thing is weak.

invading iraq didn't set up ISIS, leaving did.

More like we've been fucking with them for centuries.

You do understand that Islam was literally BORN out of conquering those around it by the sword don't you? You know all those tribes with differen't gods in the middle east, they aren't here beacuse they peacefully came to islam.

[North Calaveras]

The Islamic world has been fucking with the rest of the world for centuries...so this whole " Decades" thing is weak.

invading iraq didn't set up ISIS, leaving did.

It isn't the falling from a plane that gets you, really. It's hitting the ground.

technically true.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

So not a crusade except in the metaphorical sense.

...

By your logic, we committed jihad against the Muslims as well, centuries ago.

[North Calaveras]

...

By your logic, we committed jihad against the Muslims as well, centuries ago.

who's "we"?

[The Empire of Pretantia]

More like we've been fucking with them for centuries.

You do understand that Islam was literally BORN out of conquering those around it by the sword don't you? You know all those tribes with differen't gods in the middle east, they aren't here beacuse they peacefully came to islam.

Pagan faiths in Europe aren't here either, and not because they peacefully came to Christianity.

[North Calaveras]

You do understand that Islam was literally BORN out of conquering those around it by the sword don't you? You know all those tribes with differen't gods in the middle east, they aren't here beacuse they peacefully came to islam.

Pagan faiths in Europe aren't here either, and not because they peacefully came to Islam.

agreed, Christianity was responsible for that.

Islams birth was a DIRECT result of warfare committed by it's followers.

[Bezkoshtovnya]

More like we've been fucking with them for centuries.

You do understand that Islam was literally BORN out of conquering those around it by the sword don't you? You know all those tribes with differen't gods in the middle east, they aren't here beacuse they peacefully came to islam.

And what of the pagan faiths of Europe? The native faiths in the Americas? Those all peacefully came to Christianity am I right?

[North Calaveras]

You do understand that Islam was literally BORN out of conquering those around it by the sword don't you? You know all those tribes with differen't gods in the middle east, they aren't here beacuse they peacefully came to islam.

And what of the pagan faiths of Europe? The native faiths in the Americas? Those all peacefully came to Christianity am I right?

already adressed this above.