Europe's Problem With Islam

[Geilinor]

And Spain is not in western Europe all of a sudden? This statement is also false anyway, considering the Franks fought off Iberian Muslims at Tours pre 10th century.

Spain is Southern Europe.

It is also Western Europe.

[Baltenstein]

Considering Spanish and Portuguese cultures are based on a mix of Roman morals + Muslim morals, and that both of them had a very significant influence upon the rest of Europe (at least southern & western) I wouldn't say there is NOT a shared history, really.

Spain never influenced much any country in Europe culturally speaking althought I do have to credit that they influenced Catholicism a lot.
The whole European Culture is basically based on French culture, Italian Culture and German's stolen and remodeled part of the Italian's culture.

Quite simplistic, don't you think? There's the British Isles, Scandinavia, Benelux, Germany (whose culture is hardly "stolen and remodeled" from Italy), plus the whole Orthodox part of Europe.

[Martean]

You know there are Spaniards in the thread when, no matter what we were talking about earlier, we end up talking about how important Spain ever was.

On topic: I am some sort of a "religiophobe", I have to count to ten, take a deep breath and say "relax" to myself before trying to cope with religions in general and Abrahamic religions in particular, and their wish to tell us how we have to live our lives. Of all, Islam is the one with the most violent followers nowadays and the one that holds more power. Criticism against those in power is always a good thing in my book.

It's true that only a vast minority of them are violent, but only a vast minority of racist people are violent and that doesn't make racism a good idea.

Now I don't condone any kind of discrimination, but think religions are a bad idea and there must be a way to prevent them from holding any power anywhere in the world, and today that's especially important about Islam.

As for the first part, I hate when Spaniards do that, but I hate it more when I do it, although this was quite on topic

As for the rest: I agree with you, although Europe is having a great surge in islamophobia not because we have, all of a sudden, become a 100% religion-free contitnent, but as a consequence of the inherent racism we europeans have had for centuries. And that, combined with a crisis, combined with a range of factors no one has really discovered yet, although there are several hypothesis, has made islamophobia boom again.

[Pope Joan]

Europe's reputation for rationalism and tolerance is rapidly wearing thin.

It was never well tested, except in the instances of oppression of Jews and Gypsies, and those situations were not particularly well handled.

I can find resources from England of 60 years ago which boast at how tolerant the English had become. Why? Because they no longer excluded the Irish and Welsh from employment, housing and benefits. There was tolerance for you, one white person tolerating another.

[Esternial]

Spain only had a significant influence in Europe because of the silver and gold from the Americas.

Perhaps - but Potosi alone means that influence it undoubtedly did have. I'm not sure 'only' is quite the word you're looking for here given how important those New World precious metal reserves were to the development of the entire Western European post-medieval economy.

I don't see how trivialising (for lack of a better word) their influence makes the fact they had a significant influence any less true, either. We were arguing that Spain had a significant influence, not how or why it did, so his argument is completely irrelevant to this discussion.

[The Lone Alliance]

Europe's reputation for rationalism and tolerance is rapidly wearing thin.

It was never well tested, except in the instances of oppression of Jews and Gypsies, and those situations were not particularly well handled.

I can find resources from England of 60 years ago which boast at how tolerant the English had become. Why? Because they no longer excluded the Irish and Welsh from employment, housing and benefits. There was tolerance for you, one white person tolerating another.

I think it's the biggest weakness of top down tolerance.

There was no addressing the root issues behind it all, the government just seemed to think that if they supported multiculturalism and tried to push people to believe in multiculturalism that it would automatically stick.

People can be very tribal, that's human nature and the idea of making all the cultures separate but equal just keeps each culture suspicious of one another.

You can preach about the wonders of multiculturalism till the sun goes out but it doesn't mean it'll sway people. And when it doesn't, trying to sway people by pointing out the past the negative actions of European Culture as a reason why it's needed you risk having people believing that it's about destroying European Culture and becoming even more aggressive.

Europe needs a continent wide team building exercise more than anything else.

[MERIZoC]

Hmmm, seems my tongue-in-cheek OP went over most people's heads. Oh well.

[Hawick]

Hmmm, seems my tongue-in-cheek OP went over most people's heads. Oh well.

It really wasn't all that clever.

[MERIZoC]

Hmmm, seems my tongue-in-cheek OP went over most people's heads. Oh well.

It really wasn't all that clever.

Shhhhh. I must giggle to myself. The title fooled at least one person. Mission accomplished.

[MERIZoC]

Considering Spanish and Portuguese cultures are based on a mix of Roman morals + Muslim morals, and that both of them had a very significant influence upon the rest of Europe (at least southern & western) I wouldn't say there is NOT a shared history, really.

Spain never influenced much any country in Europe culturally speaking althought I do have to credit that they influenced Catholicism a lot.
The whole European Culture is basically based on French culture, Italian Culture and German's stolen and remodeled part of the Italian's culture.

Religion is a part of culture...

[The Liberated Territories]

Wait a while. The Muslims will integrate, and the Islamophobes will disappear or be as relevant as a doomsday prophet yelling in a city street.

[MERIZoC]

Wait a while. The Muslims will integrate, and the Islamophobes will disappear or be as relevant as a doomsday prophet yelling in a city street.

Yes, this is similar to something Reza Aslan was saying the other day, though it was about the US. We've hated Jews, Catholics, etc. Eventually we'll grow to accept Muslims just like we've accepted these other groups. Unfortunately, that means we'll find someone else to pick on.

[Rio Cana]

In the Georgian Republic Adjara region, which had a heavy Islamic population whose rights were guaranteed when the Turks handed the region over to the Soviets, the people have been converting big time from Islamic to the main Georgian Orthodox religion. I posted in another thread about the same thing happening in Kosovo. But there they are going Catholic.

Read this on Adjara - http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-rel ... 8852/posts

On Kosovo - http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/relig ... 4612/posts

Edit - Also read this - http://www.thetrumpet.com/article/4995. ... ize-kosovo

[Purger]

The main arguments they have seem to be
1. Muslims are more likely to do crimes/hate/whatever else is bad.
2. Islam is replacing European culture.
Ignoring the second for the moment, does anyone have actual sources proving or disproving the first?

Actually, I'm going to focus on the second.

Islam has been continuously part of European culture since Tariq Ibn Ziyad crossed the strait of Gibraltar in 711 AD.

While the Reconquista was completed in 1492, the Ottomans had already crossed the Hellespont in 1354 - going on to control a significant portion of the Balkans at their 16th-century apogee.

The modern Turkish republic of course continues to control a portion of the European continent, and there are significant European Muslim populations in - among other European nations - Bosnia, Albania, and Bulgaria.

So, by my count, Islam has had a significant demographic and cultural presence in Europe for just over 1300 years.

The fact Islam is present in Europe and has some adherents in the Balkans makes it not European. It is still an alien culture brought by invadors from Anadolia. Where ever Islam used to dominate in Europe is usually an economic backward places and the nations that suffered under Turks will take many time to recover from the autocratic mindset imposed on them by an Asiatic tribe.

[MERIZoC]

Actually, I'm going to focus on the second.

Islam has been continuously part of European culture since Tariq Ibn Ziyad crossed the strait of Gibraltar in 711 AD.

While the Reconquista was completed in 1492, the Ottomans had already crossed the Hellespont in 1354 - going on to control a significant portion of the Balkans at their 16th-century apogee.

The modern Turkish republic of course continues to control a portion of the European continent, and there are significant European Muslim populations in - among other European nations - Bosnia, Albania, and Bulgaria.

So, by my count, Islam has had a significant demographic and cultural presence in Europe for just over 1300 years.

The fact Islam is present in Europe and has some adherents in the Balkans makes it not European. It is still an alien culture brought by invadors from Anadolia. Where ever Islam used to dominate in Europe is usually an economic backward places and the nations that suffered under Turks will take many time to recover from the autocratic mindset imposed on them by an Asiatic tribe.

Christianity and Judaism are also alien. I guess that there aren't actually any European countries.

[Meryuma]

And let's not forget Austria. The Siege of Vienna is a rather significant historical event involving central Europe and the Ottomans. Not to mention the western empires and their colonial possessions were in many parts largely Muslim.

You all bring me historic events where Europeans (Christians) and Ottomans (Muslims) killed each other. Is this want you want to happen in 21st century?

Obviously fighting with muslims is so important part of European cultures and values as it seems from your posts.

The Moors didn't just kill. Al-Andalus was a center of learning and culture, and more tolerant of Christians and Jews than the post-Reconquista Catholic empire was of Jews and Muslims.

It really isn't.

Of course it is. Any ideology that threatens non-believers with eternal suffering, treats women as inferior to men, and gives primacy to one racial/cultural group over another is immoral and vile.

Islam teaches salvation by works, not faith, and I'm pretty sure there's no mention of race in the Qur'an. Sexism I can't really argue, as it's a major part of all Abrahamic scriptures, but i will point out that Islam has allowed divorce and first-trimester abortion since the Middle Ages.

I should also mention that Islam gives Muslim men the right to have sex with their wives whenever they want, and the right to rape any female slaves they own. I am not making any of this up. I urge people to educate themselves on this vile ideology, which is an affront to human dignity and civilization.

Do you find Christianity and Judaism to be affronts to human dignity and civilization? After all, the Bible condones sexual slavery as well. Opposing

I'm talking only about Europe.
Arabic numbers were developed thousands of years before religion called Islam was started.
Earliest views on Astronomy came from Greece. I'm sure about it.

Europeans couldn't understand zero until like 1300 AD, and tons of civilizations discovered astronomy before Greece.

I've just spent the last two years living in Dubai before returning to the UK.

Western European immigrants outnumber native Muslims by some 2:1 across the UAE as a whole.

Including all UAE population groups, there is a higher percentage of Christians in the UAE than there are Muslims in the UK.

Funny how we never seem to be as concerned about our own emigrants going to Muslim countries, though.

Because European immigrants to the UAE aren't producing things like Rotherham child sex rings or beheading soldiers in the streets.

Because Christians obviously never sexually abuse children or murder people for terrorist causes, amirite?

[Souseiseki]

Actually, I'm going to focus on the second.

Islam has been continuously part of European culture since Tariq Ibn Ziyad crossed the strait of Gibraltar in 711 AD.

While the Reconquista was completed in 1492, the Ottomans had already crossed the Hellespont in 1354 - going on to control a significant portion of the Balkans at their 16th-century apogee.

The modern Turkish republic of course continues to control a portion of the European continent, and there are significant European Muslim populations in - among other European nations - Bosnia, Albania, and Bulgaria.

So, by my count, Islam has had a significant demographic and cultural presence in Europe for just over 1300 years.

The fact Islam is present in Europe and has some adherents in the Balkans makes it not European. It is still an alien culture brought by invadors from Anadolia. Where ever Islam used to dominate in Europe is usually an economic backward places and the nations that suffered under Turks will take many time to recover from the autocratic mindset imposed on them by an Asiatic tribe.

it's a shame the germans couldn't save them from autocratic mindsets

[Avennia]

Islam isn't bad, it is just that the bad Muslims are actually heretics, how ironic...

[Purger]

As for the OP. The answer is simple if you dont want islamophobia than do not allow mass immigration from backward islamic countries. The islamophobes are not the one who are immigranting fron one place to another.

And even, I really do not see what is the problem with "islamophobia". Some people dislike christianity, some buddhism and you do not see atheist feminist be called christianophobic.

[Ascended Rome]

Much as I do hate Islamophobes, I can't blame them for their hate. The mass-emigration from the Middle-East has led to an insane level of cultural tensions, and many people from the Middle-East are not used to laws and cultural ideas which are common in Europe. I know Sweden in particular has enormous problems with an epidemic of crime caused mainly by immigrants and not by native Swedes. The fact is that refugees are never good for anyone, even if it is more ethical to accept refugees. These are people who just want a taste of home again, and are trying to force it into Europe. Unfortunately, that's not how a democratic legislation works.

[Purger]

And Spain is not in western Europe all of a sudden? This statement is also false anyway, considering the Franks fought off Iberian Muslims at Tours pre 10th century.

Well, one battle happening in the 7th century isn't a "shared history".
Plus, no matter what you could say, Islam was mostly unknow of in Europe even after the crusades to the point were one of the most famous medieval geste "La Chanson de Roland" (whose plot is ironically centered mostly around the muslims) mistook them for polytheists.

Maybe that is the case in Western Europe where Islam is seen as an exotic thing and became a object of value to multiculturalist. In Central and South East part of Europe that is not the case and the horror of the Ottomans are well recorded and known.

[Purger]

Christianity and Judaism are also alien. I guess that there aren't actually any European countries.

Actually not. European cultures stem from the Christianity directly as the two are mutual influenced. Also Christianity in Europe was there long before most European nation existed.

European culture does not stem from Islam. Islam never influenced the renaissance, baroque, Elightement, Romanticism, French revolution, Bolshevik revolution, Bolshevik revolution, Late Antiquity, Middle Ages... all the pillars of European though and civilisation. But they did influenced, or were influenced or directly interacted with Christianity and to some extend Judaism.

Christianity was given to Europe as part of Roman heritage together with the Latin language. It was here before the great migration started.

Also the last argument. Christianity was spread in Europe mostly peacefull and voluntarly. Islam not, it was artifically implanted by Asiatic hordes as part of their conquest mission. Yes, it was spread by means.of violence (forced islamisation)

[New Werpland]

In the Georgian Republic Adjara region, which had a heavy Islamic population whose rights were guaranteed when the Turks handed the region over to the Soviets, the people have been converting big time from Islamic to the main Georgian Orthodox religion. I posted in another thread about the same thing happening in Kosovo. But there they are going Catholic.

Read this on Adjara - http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-rel ... 8852/posts

On Kosovo - http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/relig ... 4612/posts

Edit - Also read this - http://www.thetrumpet.com/article/4995. ... ize-kosovo

They can't resist the machismo of Christianity.

This guy is an Orthodox Christian Priest, not a mollah

On serious note the Georgian Orthodox Church, shouldn't be compared to Christianity in general. They're as corrupt as hell, and extremely conservative to a paganistic extent. For example, you regularly see their priests getting into fights over parking issues, and they accept animal sacrifices.

[Ravea]

Do I like Islam? No. Is it in danger of taking over Europe? Ridiculous. Anyone who thinks that needs a reality check. Islam as a religion might need to make more of an effort to assimilate into European culture but the vast majority of Muslims integrate perfectly fine.

[Neo Telangana]

Let's just learn to live with each other.

This is somewhat difficult whens Islam asserts that Muslims are inherently superior to kuffars, Islamic law is inherently superior to secular law, and divides the entire world into Dar al-Islam and Dar al-Harb.