Europe's Problem With Islam

[Aelex]

Considering Spanish and Portuguese cultures are based on a mix of Roman morals + Muslim morals, and that both of them had a very significant influence upon the rest of Europe (at least southern & western) I wouldn't say there is NOT a shared history, really.

Spain never influenced much any country in Europe culturally speaking althought I do have to credit that they influenced Catholicism a lot.
The whole European Culture is basically based on French culture, Italian Culture and German's stolen and remodeled part of the Italian's culture.

[Herskerstad]

Does anyone know what those Muslims did to Europe? They tried to invade it, conquer it, destroy it, break it, and a lot more. Does Europe just have to respond like it's nothing? Say America got invaded by Muslims that wanted to convert you all into Muslims, would you respond like it's nothing?

Sorry if I sound anti-Muslim, but I'm just giving my most honest thoughts.

Should native americans pick up their spears and bows and hunt europeans out of their continent, you know, because we already are bringing the past up here?

Likely if they should prioritize they'd go into the medical field first and war against bacteria, then those of European heritage, and then likely to be hot-head chieftains bent on suicidal wars and those too eager to become future proxies, before they could return to one of the oddest war-traditions against other tribes I've seen on an historical level.

But I agree current relevance is more important. There are good eggs, productive eggs, eggs that are truly peaceful and worth keeping. They should not be a shield for the bad eggs, the unproductive eggs, the extremist eggs, the unintergratable eggs that when applicable can be sent home, should be sent home. Problem generally lies with more than merely culturally holding someone who engaged in ethnic cleansing, pedophilia, caravan raiding even on peacetime, wars of vengeance and expansionism unbridled, followed by people who were no better yet are still kept as his successors. When a man like the former is held to be the ideal man and example to all, something deeper than a mere cultural issue remains which has constant examples shown in nations both in the middle east, Europe and the America. Should a reformation come that would spiritualize and or deny significant parts/all of the above, that'd be great, but don't call them sunni or shia. The issue with those terms is that they can encompass anyone between the most peaceful, westernized, nice, generous, charitable person, to the most ravenous, depraved and murderous terrorist, or at least have a denomination with a proven track record on tolerance, pacifism and anti-terrorism. And before anyone adds, no, Sufi for multiple examples would not do.

Standards, integration and assimilation is key. Should we ignore culture entirely and seek not to influence, then comparative cultural analysis would be a fair medium as we'd get what we'd give to a greater than lesser degree, and as of now, I'd rather see Europe in general as far better on civil rights, human development, quality of law and democracy than pretty much any middle eastern nation contemporary. If the radical elements would subside and the middle east turn into something with competing or higher civil rights, human development indexes and less terror overall, then I think with time muslims would be viewed no different in western countries than Buddhists or Hindu. Lot of work before it'd get there, but that'd be better than pretending there is not a problem on multiple fronts which both profits the radically violent, anti-western muslim and harms the peaceful, westernized and productive muslim.

[Aelex]

And, by the way, Western Europe is not what you pretend it to be. Culturally France has more in common with Spain than with the UK, so does Belgium or the Netherlands (which were part of Spain, btw) and, obviously, saying Italy, France, Germany... etc. have nothing in common... c'mon, let's be serious.

I would disagree on that one. U.K's culture is mostly French culture which had been localized to fit them better.

[Teemant]

You can read my 2nd sentence again and I've said Western, Northern and Eastern Europe. People might disagree with Eastern Europe with me but I think it is obvious that Spain is Southern Europe. And I stated it previously as well.

No, Spain and Portugal are part of Western Europe.

They might also be part of Southern Europe - but your basic error is in assuming that these terms are mutually exclusive.

Western Europe you're thinking has even Finland in it as I can see from wikipedia. But you know what I meant when I was talking about Western, Eastern, Southern and Northern Europe.

[Martean]

Can anyone clarify for me: does Southern Europe even exists? If Spain is not Southern Europe I don't know what to say. Is Southern Europe starting from Morocco and ending in South Africa?

1. Spain is in Southwestern Europe. And you will not find anything at the west of Spain in continental Europe.

2. Southern and western are not mutually exclusive.

3. The thread is about muslim people in Europe as a whole, not only in those countries that (according to you) fit the premise that 'they haven't had contact with muslim culture'

[Herskerstad]

Considering Spanish and Portuguese cultures are based on a mix of Roman morals + Muslim morals, and that both of them had a very significant influence upon the rest of Europe (at least southern & western) I wouldn't say there is NOT a shared history, really.

Spain never influenced much any country in Europe culturally speaking althought I do have to credit that they influenced Catholicism a lot.
The whole European Culture is basically based on French culture, Italian Culture and German's stolen and remodeled part of the Italian's culture.

Yeah, it's not like England, Scotland, Switzerland, Austria, Russia, Sweden and the Netherlands ever contributed anything significant.

[The Archregimancy]

Can anyone clarify for me: does Southern Europe even exists? If Spain is not Southern Europe I don't know what to say. Is Southern Europe starting from Morocco and ending in South Africa?

As I noted earlier, the basic mistake you're making is in assuming that these terms are mutually exclusive.

Spain and Portugal are both Western European and Southern European.

Spain and Portugal are geographically both in Western Europe and Southern Europe; but culturally and historically both countries share far more with fellow Western European nations than they do with, say, Greece.

But you know what I meant when I was talking about Western, Eastern, Southern and Northern Europe.

Patently not; otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[Martean]

Considering Spanish and Portuguese cultures are based on a mix of Roman morals + Muslim morals, and that both of them had a very significant influence upon the rest of Europe (at least southern & western) I wouldn't say there is NOT a shared history, really.

Spain never influenced much any country in Europe culturally speaking althought I do have to credit that they influenced Catholicism a lot.
The whole European Culture is basically based on French culture, Italian Culture and German's stolen and remodeled part of the Italian's culture.

Spain did have a great influence in Europe between the XVI - XVIII Centuries. During this time, Spain was in the middle of a boom in literature (the golden century of Spanish literature), it also had a great influence politically speaking, it was the most powerful country in the world at those times, pls.

[Teemant]

Can anyone clarify for me: does Southern Europe even exists? If Spain is not Southern Europe I don't know what to say. Is Southern Europe starting from Morocco and ending in South Africa?

As I noted earlier, the basic mistake you're making is in assuming that these terms are mutually exclusive.

Spain and Portugal are both Western European and Southern European.

But clearly they both share far more culturally with, say, France than they do with, say, Greece.

Spain and Portugal are geographically both in Western Europe and Southern Europe; but culturally and historically both countries share far more with fellow Western European nations than they do with, say, Greece.

But if we divide western Europe (as you like to call the whole Europe and in wikipedia it has even Finland in it) in to four parts - East, North, South and West then Spain goes in to Southern Europe and according to UN spain is southern European country. According to other map that someone wanted to prove that Balkan is Eastern Europe, Spain was Southern Europe there too.

People know what countries I'm trying to talk about but only attack geography and my sources are instantly invalid if someone posts another map eventhough map I used was made by UN. I named countries I meant even by names but it's not enough for this forum as it seems.

[Teemant]

Can anyone clarify for me: does Southern Europe even exists? If Spain is not Southern Europe I don't know what to say. Is Southern Europe starting from Morocco and ending in South Africa?

As I noted earlier, the basic mistake you're making is in assuming that these terms are mutually exclusive.

Spain and Portugal are both Western European and Southern European.

Spain and Portugal are geographically both in Western Europe and Southern Europe; but culturally and historically both countries share far more with fellow Western European nations than they do with, say, Greece.

But you know what I meant when I was talking about Western, Eastern, Southern and Northern Europe.

Patently not; otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

You're talking about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe#Population_of_Western_Europe

I'm talking about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Europe#/media/File:Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoschme.svg

And even in EU Spain is considered Southern European country.

[The Archregimancy]

You're talking about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe#Population_of_Western_Europe

I'm talking about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Europe#/media/File:Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoschme.svg

Your assumption that my definition is based a Wikipedia listing of Western European populations is incorrect.

I would advise that you re-read my posts.

[Aelex]

Spain did have a great influence in Europe between the XVI - XVIII Centuries. During this time, Spain was in the middle of a boom in literature (the golden century of Spanish literature), it also had a great influence politically speaking, it was the most powerful country in the world at those times, pls.

I would disagree on that. Even thought I do have to agree that Spain do was the most powerful country in the world during the XVI and the early XVII, it lost it's power to France's profit at the same time it lost the Pays-Bas at the end of 80 years war. The ultimate proof of spain's decadency and fall was it's puppeting by France 60 years later.

[Esternial]

As I noted earlier, the basic mistake you're making is in assuming that these terms are mutually exclusive.

Spain and Portugal are both Western European and Southern European.

Spain and Portugal are geographically both in Western Europe and Southern Europe; but culturally and historically both countries share far more with fellow Western European nations than they do with, say, Greece.



Patently not; otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

You're talking about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe#Population_of_Western_Europe

I'm talking about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Europe#/media/File:Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoschme.svg

And even in EU Spain is considered Southern European country.

For someone who was going on about history not too long ago you're pretty eager to toss it out now.

Historically, Spain has had a significant influence in Western Europe. I know shit about history and even I know that.

[Rio Cana]

You're talking about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe#Population_of_Western_Europe

I'm talking about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Europe#/media/File:Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoschme.svg

And even in EU Spain is considered Southern European country.

For someone who was going on about history not too long ago you're pretty eager to toss it out now.

Historically, Spain has had a significant influence in Western Europe. I know shit about history and even I know that.

Spain only had a significant influence in Europe because of the silver and gold from the Americas. No Bolivian silver might have had Spain not having or having much less of an influence on Western Europe. Having said that, not being spoiled by the treasures of the Americas might have made Spain kick start its economy. Reliance on the treasures of the Americas caused Spain to overlook there local economy. In the end, when they lost there empire they found themselves with no real income and a 3rd rate economy worse then some Eastern European nations at the start of the 20 century. This all lead to the Spanish Civil war which is said to be among one of the most destructive civil wars in Western Europe.

[The Archregimancy]

For someone who was going on about history not too long ago you're pretty eager to toss it out now.

Historically, Spain has had a significant influence in Western Europe. I know shit about history and even I know that.

Spain only had a significant influence in Europe because of the silver and gold from the Americas.

Perhaps - but Potosi alone means that influence it undoubtedly did have. I'm not sure 'only' is quite the word you're looking for here given how important those New World precious metal reserves were to the development of the entire Western European post-medieval economy.

[Anywhere Else But Here]

Let's not discuss Islamophobia. Let's instead explain how compass points work to someone who is (presumably) not 6 years old.

[Hawick]

Geert Wilders isn't radical in my opinion.

Want to limit the number of islamophobes and far right parties in Europe? Cut the immigration from muslim countries.

I've just spent the last two years living in Dubai before returning to the UK.

Western European immigrants outnumber native Muslims by some 2:1 across the UAE as a whole.

Including all UAE population groups, there is a higher percentage of Christians in the UAE than there are Muslims in the UK.

Funny how we never seem to be as concerned about our own emigrants going to Muslim countries, though.

Because European immigrants to the UAE aren't producing things like Rotherham child sex rings or beheading soldiers in the streets.

[Anollasia]

Let's just learn to live with each other.

[Napkiraly]

Let's just learn to live with each other.

As the wise prophet Eazy-E once rapped "Easier said than done".

[Avalon]

You know there are Spaniards in the thread when, no matter what we were talking about earlier, we end up talking about how important Spain ever was.

On topic: I am some sort of a "religiophobe", I have to count to ten, take a deep breath and say "relax" to myself before trying to cope with religions in general and Abrahamic religions in particular, and their wish to tell us how we have to live our lives. Of all, Islam is the one with the most violent followers nowadays and the one that holds more power. Criticism against those in power is always a good thing in my book.

It's true that only a vast minority of them are violent, but only a vast minority of racist people are violent and that doesn't make racism a good idea.

Now I don't condone any kind of discrimination, but think religions are a bad idea and there must be a way to prevent them from holding any power anywhere in the world, and today that's especially important about Islam.

[Miasto Lodz]

Actually it's Islam having problem with Europe.

[Avalon]

Actually it's Islam having problem with Europe.

The problem in my opinion is not them just being Muslims, but the perception that Islam will also hold any kind of power here. Which I think is not justified, but still think we need to prevent it. And while we're at it, wipe any other religion from civil or state institutions.

[The Northern British Alliance]

From a western standpoint some high-profile Islamic practices are considered highly sexist or barbaric. Add the ISIS/ISIL clusterfuck and times that by right wing media frenzy, equals general distrust and easy scapegoats for actual issues that need resolving.

[Empire of Narnia]

Their is no problem with Islam in Europe. Their is however a problem with Islamophobia.

[Romalae]

Their is no problem with Islam in Europe. Their is however a problem with Islamophobia.

Did you read the OP?