Europe's Problem With Islam

[Valaran]

But what do you think we should do? Is this even a problem? Should we work to stop Islamophobic immigration? How can we tackle this?

It sadly is a problem, though the extent varies within Europe.

My honest answer would be to keep speaking up and promoting the ideals we hold dear, and a healthy does of education, while combating ignorance.

But I'm not sure that is enough now. And even if it does work, the solution is long term.

[Valaran]

Coming right up:




Also, please define European culture, since that isn't homogenous either. There isn't even a uniform British culture, let alone a European one.

Islam isn't part of history of these countries (if we leave out colonies because I'm talking about Europe). Can you give me some examples how islam has historically been shaping culture and values of these countries?

But true. I should have used different words but english is not my first language.

I'm not leaving out colonies thanks, since it make up a large chunk of my nation's recent history.
What numeral system are we using again? Where did some of our earliest views on Astronomy and science come from again?

No problem.

[Teemant]

So United Nations map is wrong and the map you chose is the right? Okay.

No, the UN also includes areas where the muslim population is over one percent - its 13.4% in Bulgaria, which according to them is in Eastern Europe.

Only your view is wrong.

Bulgaria. I missed that.

But what about rest of Eastern Europe. Bulgaria changes everything? Because there is 13.4% in Bulgaria means that othern Eastern European countries are like Bulgaria now?

[Teemant]

Islam isn't part of history of these countries (if we leave out colonies because I'm talking about Europe). Can you give me some examples how islam has historically been shaping culture and values of these countries?

But true. I should have used different words but english is not my first language.

I'm not leaving out colonies thanks, since it make up a large chunk of my nation's recent history.
What numeral system are we using again? Where did some of our earliest views on Astronomy and science come from again?

No problem.

I'm talking only about Europe.
Arabic numbers were developed thousands of years before religion called Islam was started.
Earliest views on Astronomy came from Greece. I'm sure about it.

[Valaran]

No, the UN also includes areas where the muslim population is over one percent - its 13.4% in Bulgaria, which according to them is in Eastern Europe.

Only your view is wrong.

Bulgaria. I missed that.

But what about rest of Eastern Europe. Bulgaria changes everything? Because there is 13.4% in Bulgaria means that othern Eastern European countries are like Bulgaria now?

You said no examples, and yet, even within a severely limited geographical scope, I could still find one (and more, since much of Eastern Europe has had extensive dealings with islamic cultures). Unless you now limit your regional view to the Baltic states, I doubt you would find a history of no interaction of muslim populations of any noticeable size.

[Kvatchdom]

Cultural integration will always be a problem. We simply need to make sure that the children of the Islamic immigrants are educated properly. None of the newer generation Muslims I know really give a shit about Middle-east things or the conversion stuff. Most of them even eat pork.

[Teemant]

Bulgaria. I missed that.

But what about rest of Eastern Europe. Bulgaria changes everything? Because there is 13.4% in Bulgaria means that othern Eastern European countries are like Bulgaria now?

You said no examples, and yet, even within a severely limited geographical scope, I could still find one (and more, since much of Eastern Europe has had extensive dealings with islamic cultures). Unless you now limit your regional view to the Baltic states, I doubt you would find a history of no interaction of muslim populations of any noticeable size.

Of course Eastern European countries have been fighting with muslims (interaction) but I never was talking about fighting. But islam isn't part of these countries culture and hasn't been part of shaping it.

[The Archregimancy]

No, the UN also includes areas where the muslim population is over one percent - its 13.4% in Bulgaria, which according to them is in Eastern Europe.

Only your view is wrong.

Bulgaria. I missed that.

But what about rest of Eastern Europe. Bulgaria changes everything? Because there is 13.4% in Bulgaria means that othern Eastern European countries are like Bulgaria now?

As detailed on the previous page, Islam is the second-largest religion in Russia.

Also, much of European Russia was under the control of the Khanate of the Golden Horde from 1240 through 1502.

From 1313 through 1502, the religion of the Golden Horde was Islam.

The Islamic Crimean Khanate would survive until 1783.

I take it you're not about to argue that Russia and Crimea aren't in Eastern Europe?

[Neo Telangana]

I should also mention that Islam gives Muslim men the right to have sex with their wives whenever they want, and the right to rape any female slaves they own. I am not making any of this up. I urge people to educate themselves on this vile ideology, which is an affront to human dignity and civilization.

spoken like a man that has never read the bible and has no idea what the fuck a rome actually is

When did Christianity and Rome become the ultimate standard of human morality? What makes you think I consider Christianity a moral ideology at all, and what makes you think I consider Rome to be a moral political entity?

Do you deny of my charges against Islam? Do you deny that Islam permits Muslim men to have sex with their female slaves whenever they wish, and considers women to be inferior to men?

If average Muslims are decent, moral beings, it is not because of Islam and the Quran, but in spite of it. Anyone who truly follows the teachings of the Quran and Hadiths, and emulates the example of Muhammad in its fullest, will end up like the soldiers of ISIS. Luckily, the average Muslim does not take his/her religion as seriously as those people. Unfortunately, however, the average Muslim cannot criticize Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi and his self-proclaimed Caliphate using the language of Islam. They must use secular moral reasoning that is not derived from Islam at all, for ISIS is not in any way un-Islamic at its core. Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi has a PhD in Islamic Studies and understands his religion far better than any apologist for Islam.

[Drekka]

Wellaybe there Have been murder/burglary/rape/illiteracy spikes caused by a minority of these immigrants that's sparking islamophobia in Europe. Tolerance goes both ways , I suppose. but I may be a Minority in that sort of thought.

[Valaran]

I'm not leaving out colonies thanks, since it make up a large chunk of my nation's recent history.
What numeral system are we using again? Where did some of our earliest views on Astronomy and science come from again?

No problem.

I'm talking only about Europe.
Arabic numbers were developed thousands of years before religion called Islam was started.
Earliest views on Astronomy came from Greece. I'm sure about it.

And you said interactions. We interacted through the medium of colonisation. Unless you now want to claim we've never had any American interaction or non-violent cultural influences since that was colonial too.

And who spread them again? It wasn't the Romans.
Ah, but much of that was lost until the Renaissance (and actually the greeks took a lot from the Babylonians and Egyptians). When 'Western Europe' was being formed at the close of the dark ages, Islamic influence on science and medicine was huge.

[Teemant]

Bulgaria. I missed that.

But what about rest of Eastern Europe. Bulgaria changes everything? Because there is 13.4% in Bulgaria means that othern Eastern European countries are like Bulgaria now?

As detailed on the previous page, Islam is the second-largest religion in Russia.

Also, much of European Russia was under the control of the Khanate of the Golden Horde from 1240 through 1502.

From 1313 through 1502, the religion of the Golden Horde was Islam.

The Islamic Crimean Khanate would survive until 1783.

I take it you're not about to argue that Russia and Crimea aren't in Eastern Europe?

In my first post about Eastern Europe I said excluding Russia.

[Valaran]

You said no examples, and yet, even within a severely limited geographical scope, I could still find one (and more, since much of Eastern Europe has had extensive dealings with islamic cultures). Unless you now limit your regional view to the Baltic states, I doubt you would find a history of no interaction of muslim populations of any noticeable size.

Of course Eastern European countries have been fighting with muslims (interaction) but I never was talking about fighting. But islam isn't part of these countries culture and hasn't been part of shaping it.

Actually many parts along the black sea and south of Romania were ruled quite peacefully. And you made plenty of mention of 'no interaction at all', and fighting.

[Valaran]

In my first post about Eastern Europe I said excluding Russia.

Seriously, how far were you planning to limit Europe to then? Svalbard? Iceland?

[Martean]

And let's not forget Austria. The Siege of Vienna is a rather significant historical event involving central Europe and the Ottomans. Not to mention the western empires and their colonial possessions were in many parts largely Muslim.

You all bring me historic events where Europeans (Christians) and Ottomans (Muslims) killed each other. Is this want you want to happen in 21st century?

Obviously fighting with muslims is so important part of European cultures and values as it seems from your posts.

Considering Spanish and Portuguese cultures are based on a mix of Roman morals + Muslim morals, and that both of them had a very significant influence upon the rest of Europe (at least southern & western) I wouldn't say there is NOT a shared history, really.

[Teemant]

I'm talking only about Europe.
Arabic numbers were developed thousands of years before religion called Islam was started.
Earliest views on Astronomy came from Greece. I'm sure about it.

And you said interactions. We interacted through the medium of colonisation. Unless you now want to claim we've never had any American interaction or non-violent cultural influences since that was colonial too.

And who spread them again? It wasn't the Romans.
Ah, but much of that was lost until the Renaissance (and actually the greeks took a lot from the Babylonians and Egyptians). When 'Western Europe' was being formed at the close of the dark ages, Islamic influence on science and medicine was huge.

And please tell me how has islam shaped culture of your country in that case.

Arabic numbers were spread mostly by Europeans themselves who promoted it. But look at it how you want these numbers existed way before Islam.

[Souseiseki]

spoken like a man that has never read the bible and has no idea what the fuck a rome actually is

When did Christianity and Rome become the ultimate standard of human morality? What makes you think I consider Christianity a moral ideology at all, and what makes you think I consider Rome to be a moral political entity?

Do you deny of my charges against Islam? Do you deny that Islam permits Muslim men to have sex with their female slaves whenever they wish, and considers women to be inferior to men?

If average Muslims are decent, moral beings, it is not because of Islam and the Quran, but in spite of it. Anyone who truly follows the teachings of the Quran and Hadiths, and emulates the example of Muhammad in its fullest, will end up like the soldiers of ISIS. Luckily, the average Muslim does not take his/her religion as seriously as those people. Unfortunately, however, the average Muslim cannot criticize Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi and his self-proclaimed Caliphate using the language of Islam. They must use secular moral reasoning that is not derived from Islam at all, for ISIS is not in any way un-Islamic at its core. Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi has a PhD in Islamic Studies and understands his religion far better than any apologist for Islam.

nah i just want to check you're not one of the people that will try and pull "islam bad christianity juadism good" bullshit (there are a lot of them)

[The Archregimancy]

As detailed on the previous page, Islam is the second-largest religion in Russia.

Also, much of European Russia was under the control of the Khanate of the Golden Horde from 1240 through 1502.

From 1313 through 1502, the religion of the Golden Horde was Islam.

The Islamic Crimean Khanate would survive until 1783.

I take it you're not about to argue that Russia and Crimea aren't in Eastern Europe?

In my first post about Eastern Europe I said excluding Russia.

So to you, Eastern Europe excludes the Balkan Peninsula and Russia.

I think everyone in this thread can be forgiven for thinking that 'Eastern Europe' is actually best defined for your purposes as 'only those selectively chosen countries that are going to fit my premise, even if that means excluding most of the region'.

This is a bit like saying that when you said 'United Kingdom', you obviously only meant 'Wales'.

[Teemant]

In my first post about Eastern Europe I said excluding Russia.

So to you, Eastern Europe excludes the Balkan Peninsula and Russia.

I think everyone in this thread can be forgiven for thinking that 'Eastern Europe' is actually best defined for your purposes as 'only those selectively chosen countries that are going to fit my premise, even if that means excluding most of the region'.

I've noticed that people in this thread have steered me far away from what I said first. I'm not an expert at debating either.

I quote my self from 1st page:

You're really stretching (or how to say it) the map right now I'd say. Islam hasn't been significant demographic and cultural presence in Europe (especially Western, Central and Eastern Europe).

My 2 sentence definitely doesn't say that there hasn't been interactions with muslims.

[Martean]

I quote my self from 1st page:

You're really stretching (or how to say it) the map right now I'd say. Islam hasn't been significant demographic and cultural presence in Europe (especially Western, Central and Eastern Europe).

My 2 sentence definitely doesn't say that there hasn't been interactions with muslims.

And Again:

You all bring me historic events where Europeans (Christians) and Ottomans (Muslims) killed each other. Is this want you want to happen in 21st century?

Obviously fighting with muslims is so important part of European cultures and values as it seems from your posts.

Considering Spanish and Portuguese cultures are based on a mix of Roman morals + Muslim morals, and that both of them had a very significant influence upon the rest of Europe (at least southern & western) I wouldn't say there is NOT a shared history, really.

[Teemant]

I quote my self from 1st page:

My 2 sentence definitely doesn't say that there hasn't been interactions with muslims.

And Again:

Considering Spanish and Portuguese cultures are based on a mix of Roman morals + Muslim morals, and that both of them had a very significant influence upon the rest of Europe (at least southern & western) I wouldn't say there is NOT a shared history, really.

You can read my 2nd sentence again and I've said Western, Northern and Eastern Europe. People might disagree with Eastern Europe with me but I think it is obvious that Spain is Southern Europe. And I stated it previously as well.

[The Archregimancy]

I'm not an expert at debating either.

Clearly not.

I quote my self from 1st page:

You're really stretching (or how to say it) the map right now I'd say. Islam hasn't been significant demographic and cultural presence in Europe (especially Western, Central and Eastern Europe).

Yes, and I answered that all the way back here:

You're really stretching (or how to say it) the map right now I'd say. Islam hasn't been significant demographic and cultural presence in Europe (especially Western, Central and Eastern Europe).

Are the Iberian Peninsula and the Balkans in Europe, or are they not in Europe?

And as to having no presence in Central and Eastern Europe....

And then here:

First of all, significant parts of Spain - and for a while Portugal - were under Muslim control from 711 - 1492 AD; that's over 700 years. Muslims made up some 80% of the population of Al Andalus by 1100 AD. Spain's Islamic heritage - notably, but not exclusively, the Alhambra and the Great Mosque of Cordoba - are significant heritage sites visited by millions of international tourists. By any count those are significant demographic and cultural impacts

As to Eastern Europe, the term is malleable, but by many counts includes the Balkan Peninsula - much of which was under direct Ottoman control for centuries, with significant and long-lasting cultural and demographic impacts across the Balkans. And note that we haven't even begun to discuss the impact of the Golden Horde and the Khanate of the Crimea on Russian history, demographics, and culture.

Eastern Europe does not have 'the lowest muslim population as % of country's population in the world'.

95% of the population of Kosovo are Muslims
56% of the population of Albania are Muslims
45% of the population of Bosnia are Muslims
7.8% of the population of Bulgaria are Muslims
6.5% of the population of Russia are Muslims - Islam is the second-largest religion in Russia after Orthodoxy

At this point - where you still seem to be excluding Spain and Portugal from Western Europe and the Balkans and Russia from Eastern Europe because they don't fit your premise - it might perhaps be best for you to admit that you're arguing from a position of rank ignorance about the historical, cultural, and demographic issues involved.

[The Archregimancy]

You can read my 2nd sentence again and I've said Western, Northern and Eastern Europe. People might disagree with Eastern Europe with me but I think it is obvious that Spain is Southern Europe. And I stated it previously as well.

No, Spain and Portugal are part of Western Europe.

They might also be part of Southern Europe - but your basic error is in assuming that these terms are mutually exclusive.

[Martean]

And Again:

You can read my 2nd sentence again and I've said Western, Northern and Eastern Europe. People might disagree with Eastern Europe with me but I think it is obvious that Spain is Southern Europe. And I stated it previously as well.

''Considering Spanish and Portuguese cultures are based on a mix of Roman morals + Muslim morals, and that both of them had a very significant influence upon the rest of Europe (at least southern & western) I wouldn't say there is NOT a shared history, really.''

And, by the way, Western Europe is not what you pretend it to be. Culturally France has more in common with Spain than with the UK, so does Belgium or the Netherlands (which were part of Spain, btw) and, obviously, saying Italy, France, Germany... etc. have nothing in common... c'mon, let's be serious.

Talking about 'western europe' and exclude these countries is just nonsense. Western Europe can't be understood withouth the mediterranean countries, so stop pretending they are two different entities.

[Teemant]

I'm not an expert at debating either.

Clearly not.

I quote my self from 1st page:

Yes, and I answered that all the way back here:

Are the Iberian Peninsula and the Balkans in Europe, or are they not in Europe?

And as to having no presence in Central and Eastern Europe....

And then here:

First of all, significant parts of Spain - and for a while Portugal - were under Muslim control from 711 - 1492 AD; that's over 700 years. Muslims made up some 80% of the population of Al Andalus by 1100 AD. Spain's Islamic heritage - notably, but not exclusively, the Alhambra and the Great Mosque of Cordoba - are significant heritage sites visited by millions of international tourists. By any count those are significant demographic and cultural impacts

As to Eastern Europe, the term is malleable, but by many counts includes the Balkan Peninsula - much of which was under direct Ottoman control for centuries, with significant and long-lasting cultural and demographic impacts across the Balkans. And note that we haven't even begun to discuss the impact of the Golden Horde and the Khanate of the Crimea on Russian history, demographics, and culture.

Eastern Europe does not have 'the lowest muslim population as % of country's population in the world'.

95% of the population of Kosovo are Muslims
56% of the population of Albania are Muslims
45% of the population of Bosnia are Muslims
7.8% of the population of Bulgaria are Muslims
6.5% of the population of Russia are Muslims - Islam is the second-largest religion in Russia after Orthodoxy

At this point - where you still seem to be excluding Spain and Portugal from Western Europe and the Balkans and Russia from Eastern Europe because they don't fit your premise - it might perhaps be best for you to admit that you're arguing from a position of rank ignorance about the historical, cultural, and demographic issues involved.

I'm not good at debating and people try to take advantage of it and steer me away but nvm. At least I can admit that.

You can name these countries like Kosovo, Albania, Bosnia, Bulgara and Russia but still muslims don't make it even near to 5% of Eastern European population. These are very small (besides Russia) countries you named and 3 of them are in Balkans and have very little in common with other Eastern European countries.
Russia has huge muslim population (in numbers not as % of population) it's true. And most of it's muslim population lives in Caucasus which is very far away from Russia. Most of Russian land is in Asia.

Can anyone clarify for me: does Southern Europe even exists? If Spain is not Southern Europe I don't know what to say. Is Southern Europe starting from Morocco and ending in South Africa?