Criticisms of Feminism

[Tahar Joblis]

How do you know they are assholes who just want to get laid? Did they tell you, or are you assuming? They could just want a partner.

Because doing something just for sex, feeling entitled to sex just for doing what a decent person should do, and bitching when you don't get sex makes you an asshole.

Why don't they have to say anything about it? Like I said, it's just them responding to what they are constantly told by society and acknowledging it isn't working.

Because nice guys don't go around telling everyone how awesome they are. Doing seemingly altruistic acts just because you want attention doesn't make you a good person, just an attention-starved asshole. The best people don't go seeking a reward for helping others; helping others is there reward.

The only thing that's truly intrinsically different between the nice guys complaining about being lonely and nice girls complaining about being lonely is that the latter are treated considerably more sympathetically.

The "nice guy" narrative you keep reciting? It rarely is accurate. Mostly, it's just a misandrist bit of hate-mongering used to justify not empathizing with men who are suffering. It's part of a complex of gendered shaming that teaches men they have to be stoic and conceal weakness. The nice guy's true "sin" isn't being nice. It isn't what his expectations are. It's that he has the temerity to complain out loud about suffering while being male.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Because doing something just for sex, feeling entitled to sex just for doing what a decent person should do, and bitching when you don't get sex makes you an asshole.
Because nice guys don't go around telling everyone how awesome they are. Doing seemingly altruistic acts just because you want attention doesn't make you a good person, just an attention-starved asshole. The best people don't go seeking a reward for helping others; helping others is there reward.

The only thing that's truly intrinsically different between the nice guys complaining about being lonely and nice girls complaining about being lonely is that the latter are treated considerably more sympathetically.

The "nice guy" narrative you keep reciting? It rarely is accurate. Mostly, it's just a misandrist bit of hate-mongering used to justify not empathizing with men who are suffering. It's part of a complex of gendered shaming that teaches men they have to be stoic and conceal weakness. The nice guy's true "sin" isn't being nice. It isn't what his expectations are. It's that he has the temerity to complain out loud about suffering while being male.

That's not really true.

Yes, you might be right that the latter are treated more sympathetically, but the "nice girls" are in the same boat as the "nice guys" to be honest of what I described earlier on: that they are either not dating within circles that she might find a guy who is going to click with her expectations to have a connection with someone or she just isn't as nice as she thinks she is or she has other things that make her unsuitable for dating in the point of view of the guys who she is trying to date. And that many of them are deceptively nice in that they will take you for a ride and some of them can be abusive and just fake their niceness.

[Tahar Joblis]

The only thing that's truly intrinsically different between the nice guys complaining about being lonely and nice girls complaining about being lonely is that the latter are treated considerably more sympathetically.

The "nice guy" narrative you keep reciting? It rarely is accurate. Mostly, it's just a misandrist bit of hate-mongering used to justify not empathizing with men who are suffering. It's part of a complex of gendered shaming that teaches men they have to be stoic and conceal weakness. The nice guy's true "sin" isn't being nice. It isn't what his expectations are. It's that he has the temerity to complain out loud about suffering while being male.

That's not really true.

Yes, you might be right that the latter are treated more sympathetically, but the "nice girls" are in the same boat as the "nice guys" to be honest of what I described earlier on: that they are either not dating within circles that she might find a guy who is going to click with her expectations to have a connection with someone or she just isn't as nice as she thinks she is or she has other things that make her unsuitable for dating in the point of view of the guys who she is trying to date. And that many of them are deceptively nice in that they will take you for a ride and some of them can be abusive and just fake their niceness.

I've enlarged the point that you should be thinking about.

There are a host of reasons why someone might be failing at dating. They may simply be unlucky at the moment, and this will change dramatically in the future without them changing anything. They may be ugly. They may be awkward.

There are easily several hundred common factors involved with why someone is not dating that have absolutely no bearing on whether or not they're nice.

And every single one of those factors punches a probabilistic hole in the narrative insistence that the nice guy must not be a nice guy; that he must be an entitled asshole. The fact of the matter is, there are thousands of very different stories surrounding why a particular nice person - male or female - isn't dating successfully, and the narrative that's being pushed here by Threlizdun et al (it's very specific and about entitlement) probably won't even break the top ten once you divide it into a hundred similarly detailed narrative types.

When it's a girl, people look for those other factors. Maybe she's fat. Maybe she's shy and is waiting for the guy to make a move - and when it's a girl we're talking about, the response to that is usually either to tell her to be patient or to try to gently coax her into getting her nerve up, not shaming her for cowardice the way it is when a guy is shy.

[Vesium]

The word feminism seems a bit unappealing to men don't you think? Shouldn't standard run of the mill feminism be called egalitarianism or something else? Maybe that would further differentiate it from the "men are evil" minority that feminism gets a bad wrap over.

[The Confederacy of Nationalism]

Because doing something just for sex, feeling entitled to sex just for doing what a decent person should do, and bitching when you don't get sex makes you an asshole.
Because nice guys don't go around telling everyone how awesome they are. Doing seemingly altruistic acts just because you want attention doesn't make you a good person, just an attention-starved asshole. The best people don't go seeking a reward for helping others; helping others is there reward.

The only thing that's truly intrinsically different between the nice guys complaining about being lonely and nice girls complaining about being lonely is that the latter are treated considerably more sympathetically.

The "nice guy" narrative you keep reciting? It rarely is accurate. Mostly, it's just a misandrist bit of hate-mongering used to justify not empathizing with men who are suffering. It's part of a complex of gendered shaming that teaches men they have to be stoic and conceal weakness. The nice guy's true "sin" isn't being nice. It isn't what his expectations are. It's that he has the temerity to complain out loud about suffering while being male.

I believe everybody should conceal their weaknesses, if you don't want them exploited, you shouldn't show them. That always seemed kind of common sense to me. The art of war applies in many places outside war. In any case, the problem isn't teaching men to conceal weakness, the problem is teaching women that it's ok to show it.

[Ostroeuropa]

The only thing that's truly intrinsically different between the nice guys complaining about being lonely and nice girls complaining about being lonely is that the latter are treated considerably more sympathetically.

The "nice guy" narrative you keep reciting? It rarely is accurate. Mostly, it's just a misandrist bit of hate-mongering used to justify not empathizing with men who are suffering. It's part of a complex of gendered shaming that teaches men they have to be stoic and conceal weakness. The nice guy's true "sin" isn't being nice. It isn't what his expectations are. It's that he has the temerity to complain out loud about suffering while being male.

I believe everybody should conceal their weaknesses, if you don't want them exploited, you shouldn't show them. That always seemed kind of common sense to me. The art of war applies in many places outside war. In any case, the problem isn't teaching men to conceal weakness, the problem is teaching women that it's ok to show it.

Yes, let's all be isolated from eachother by permanent forcefields of social expectation and bullshit and never really come into contact with eachother because we're all just following a script.
That sounds like a smashing idea.
These made up characters Joe Everyman and Jane Housewife are much more interesting than the myriad of other people we could meet. I want to meet these two, again and again, in perpetuity, forever.

[The Confederacy of Nationalism]

I believe everybody should conceal their weaknesses, if you don't want them exploited, you shouldn't show them. That always seemed kind of common sense to me. The art of war applies in many places outside war. In any case, the problem isn't teaching men to conceal weakness, the problem is teaching women that it's ok to show it.

Yes, let's all be isolated from eachother by permanent forcefields of social expectation and bullshit and never really come into contact with eachother because we're all just following a script.
That sounds like a smashing idea.
These made up characters Joe Everyman and Jane Housewife are much more interesting than the myriad of other people we could meet. I want to meet these two, again and again, in perpetuity, forever.

That doesn't have anything to do with concealing weaknesses. Concealing weaknesses does not mean isolate yourself.

[Des-Bal]

The word feminism seems a bit unappealing to men don't you think? Shouldn't standard run of the mill feminism be called egalitarianism or something else? Maybe that would further differentiate it from the "men are evil" minority that feminism gets a bad wrap over.

It's not the minority. People always talk about the problem with the minority making the majority look bad but in reality the entire movement has serious issues. The feminist narrative of patriarchy really can't be interpreted any way except "men are evil." It's insane and if it wasn't for feminism's association with genuinely good things it would be laughable. Feminism as a movement has never really been about equality, it's always been about the advancement of women and any interest in addressing imbalanced standards that harm men has been completely cursory.

[The Confederacy of Nationalism]

The word feminism seems a bit unappealing to men don't you think? Shouldn't standard run of the mill feminism be called egalitarianism or something else? Maybe that would further differentiate it from the "men are evil" minority that feminism gets a bad wrap over.

It's not the minority. People always talk about the problem with the minority making the majority look bad but in reality the entire movement has serious issues. The feminist narrative of patriarchy really can't be interpreted any way except "men are evil." It's insane and if it wasn't for feminism's association with genuinely good things it would be laughable. Feminism as a movement has never really been about equality, it's always been about the advancement of women and any interest in addressing imbalanced standards that harm men has been completely cursory.

The old feminism for equality died a long time ago. Namely, when they succeeded.

[Des-Bal]

The old feminism for equality died a long time ago. Namely, when they succeeded.

Wrong on both counts. There is not equality between the sexes in a real sense and feminism was never really about equality. Regardless of what the adherents may have said when judged by it's fruits feminism has always been about advancing women without "equality" as a legitimate goal.

[The Confederacy of Nationalism]

The old feminism for equality died a long time ago. Namely, when they succeeded.

Wrong on both counts. There is not equality between the sexes in a real sense and feminism was never really about equality. Regardless of what the adherents may have said when judged by it's fruits feminism has always been about advancing women without "equality" as a legitimate goal.

The old feminism did have equality as a legitimate goal, women's suffrage and all that. Political equality between the sexes was achieved long ago. Social equality is a joke.

[The Confederacy of Nationalism]

There really isn't a reason to show weakness as well, all it does in the professional world is tarnish your reputation. A tarnished reputation is the last thing you want to have.

[Kelinfort]

There really isn't a reason to show weakness as well, all it does in the professional world is tarnish your reputation. A tarnished reputation is the last thing you want to have.

Actually, in my experience, showing some weakness increases your humanity and ethos, if done properly. The worst thing you can do is give false bravado and braggadocio, only to have it implode spectacularly. Showing weakness can be advantageous.

[The Confederacy of Nationalism]

There really isn't a reason to show weakness as well, all it does in the professional world is tarnish your reputation. A tarnished reputation is the last thing you want to have.

Actually, in my experience, showing some weakness increases your humanity and ethos, if done properly. The worst thing you can do is give false bravado and braggadocio, only to have it implode spectacularly. Showing weakness can be advantageous.

Not necessarily, I'd fire anyone who bitches at me like a schoolchild about how they couldn't do their work (and didn't bother to ask for clarification or help) or if they start crying over it. No purpose paying someone who can't do their job professionally. The egotistical ones are just as bad if they take credit for someone else's hard work, dishonesty has no place in the professional world either.

[CTALNH]

Well this has become a shitfest.

[Kelinfort]

Actually, in my experience, showing some weakness increases your humanity and ethos, if done properly. The worst thing you can do is give false bravado and braggadocio, only to have it implode spectacularly. Showing weakness can be advantageous.

Not necessarily, I'd fire anyone who bitches at me like a schoolchild about how they couldn't do their work or if they start crying over it. No purpose paying someone who can't do their job professionally. The egotistical ones are just as bad if they take credit for someone else's hard work, dishonesty has no place in the professional world either.

You seem to confuse whining as weakness. Whining isn't weakness, it's unnecessary and unproductive. Showing weakness is owning up to faults and accepting your failures, while affirming your dedication to success. Whining is just petty and immature.

[The Confederacy of Nationalism]

Well this has become a shitfest.

was a shitfest since the OP made the thread

[The Confederacy of Nationalism]

Not necessarily, I'd fire anyone who bitches at me like a schoolchild about how they couldn't do their work or if they start crying over it. No purpose paying someone who can't do their job professionally. The egotistical ones are just as bad if they take credit for someone else's hard work, dishonesty has no place in the professional world either.

You seem to confuse whining as weakness. Whining isn't weakness, it's unnecessary and unproductive. Showing weakness is owning up to faults and accepting your failures, while affirming your dedication to success. Whining is just petty and immature.

Accepting failures has nothing to do with waving them around. Whining is a weakness, as you just said it's unproductive - anything that reduces productivity is a weakness. "Weakness" in the sense I am using is: not accepting your failures and/or dwelling on them, blaming them on other people, or whining about them. Failures themselves aren't weaknesses (unless they were stupid and could have been avoided) because at least you've learned 1 way how not to do something.

[CTALNH]

Well this has become a shitfest.

was a shitfest since the OP made the thread

True!

[Dainer]

was a shitfest since the OP made the thread

True!

It got worse when Anita Sarkeesian, of all people, got labeled an "extremist" and the claim went unchallenged for pages.

[Hetmarch]

Feminism is hilarious. They accomplished every legitimate goal over 50 years ago so they have to constantly make up new issues like "fart rape" or "manspreading" to hold on to their victim status.

[CTALNH]

True!

It got worse when Anita Sarkeesian, of all people, got labeled an "extremist" and the claim went unchallenged for pages.

Ouch...

[Udinia]

Feminism is hilarious. They accomplished every legitimate goal over 50 years ago so they have to constantly make up new issues like "fart rape" or "manspreading" to hold on to their victim status.

Yes, that's a minority of the people who describe themselves as "feminist", most of those very deranged ones are simply gynocentrists.

Ok, let me talk to you one on one for a moment. I want to get some good quality time with you so we can gauge eachother. With that being said, I forward you an inquiry. What is it exactly you think feminism is?

[Hetmarch]

I forward you an inquiry. What is it exactly you think feminism is?

A movement dedicated to giving women rights they already have.

[Larthinia]

Feminism is wrong because is wrong!
Done.