Criticisms of Feminism

[Kvatchdom]

Safer? Do gangs of women go around and beat up men who don't do whatever a woman asks where you live?

No, but they'll engage in attacks on a persons reputation and such.
Which can lead to social ostracization and actual violence later on.
I'd rather get into a fight that'll be over in a few minutes than have to deal with 5 gossipy people with a grudge. Wouldn't you?

I have a feeling you have bad memories of such occasions.

[Gauthier]

Not carry her things if she asks. I live in south wales. I've seen it frequently enough.
Not all women do it. Some will accept a no. (Perhaps a majority, i'm not sure.)
But some do. And because of that, it's safer to just do what women ask.
They'll attack the gender using real manism usually. Worse if in a group.

Safer? Do gangs of women go around and beat up men who don't do whatever a woman asks where you live?

Or it suggests a lack of self esteem and thus vulnerability to insults directed at masculinity. While else would he talk about having gender attacked as if it were a physical assault?

[Natapoc]

Safer? Do gangs of women go around and beat up men who don't do whatever a woman asks where you live?

No, but they'll engage in attacks on a persons reputation and such.
Which can lead to social ostracization and actual violence later on.
I'd rather get into a fight than have to deal with 5 gossipy people with a grudge. Wouldn't you?

I'd rather not get into a physical fight actually.

I'm sorry but I have a very difficult time believing this actually happens. I've traveled all over the world (never to south wales so perhaps it's a local thing) and I've never... EVER seen the type of behavior you are suggesting.

[Ostroeuropa]

No, but they'll engage in attacks on a persons reputation and such.
Which can lead to social ostracization and actual violence later on.
I'd rather get into a fight than have to deal with 5 gossipy people with a grudge. Wouldn't you?

I'd rather not get into a physical fight actually.

I'm sorry but I have a very difficult time believing this actually happens. I've traveled all over the world (never to south wales so perhaps it's a local thing) and I've never... EVER seen the type of behavior you are suggesting.

That's fine. Keep an eye out for it. The thing to watch for is women complaining about a mans lack of masculinity in specific contexts to eachother or to other males.
You'll note that these incidents revolve around how the male refused to do something for her, or failed in some way to uphold an expected service.
I've had women complain directly to me about others, i've had women flip their shit at me when I refuse or fail to uphold expected standards (drunkenly, to be fair.), i've had women use real manist rhetoric and such to me when I refuse or fail to uphold, i've overheard women complaining about others, and to be fair i've heard women complaining about women doing this kind of thing.

Cheque splitting is another. There's a lot of little rituals and such.

[Natapoc]

I'd rather not get into a physical fight actually.

I'm sorry but I have a very difficult time believing this actually happens. I've traveled all over the world (never to south wales so perhaps it's a local thing) and I've never... EVER seen the type of behavior you are suggesting.

That's fine. Keep an eye out for it. The thing to watch for is women complaining about a mans lack of masculinity in specific contexts to eachother or to other males.
You'll note that these incidents revolve around how the male refused to do something for her, or failed in some way to uphold an expected service.
I've had women complain directly to me about others, i've had women flip their shit at me when I refuse or fail to uphold expected standards (drunkenly, to be fair.), i've had women use real manist rhetoric and such to me when I refuse or fail to uphold, i've overheard women complaining about others, and to be fair i've heard women complaining about women doing this kind of thing.

Cheque splitting is another. There's a lot of little rituals and such.

So you think that the possibility that a woman may question your conformance to gender roles is enough reason to break things belonging to any woman?

[Ostroeuropa]

That's fine. Keep an eye out for it. The thing to watch for is women complaining about a mans lack of masculinity in specific contexts to eachother or to other males.
You'll note that these incidents revolve around how the male refused to do something for her, or failed in some way to uphold an expected service.
I've had women complain directly to me about others, i've had women flip their shit at me when I refuse or fail to uphold expected standards (drunkenly, to be fair.), i've had women use real manist rhetoric and such to me when I refuse or fail to uphold, i've overheard women complaining about others, and to be fair i've heard women complaining about women doing this kind of thing.

Cheque splitting is another. There's a lot of little rituals and such.

So you think that the possibility that a woman may question your conformance to gender roles is enough reason to break things belonging to any woman?

*Shrug*
Making a mess is fine too. Ideally you won't have to break anything. Just be annoying and make the point of making it backfire enough that it isn't worth them asking again if enough males get into the habit.
I'll note that it isn't merely questioning conformance that's the issue, it's the social damage that accompanies it, especially if spread.
Reputation also carries value. That is why there are libel laws. Within that context, it's an eye for an eye.
Perhaps not the most agreeable of things to advocate. I'd say they should focus on just being inconvinient. But if someone came to me and said they'd done it? I'd say it was acceptable, dependent on the relative values and such.
I know that's not going to be a popular answer, but i'm not going to lie about my opinion.

[Fanosolia]

All men are enslaved to all women now? That's news to me.

Bondage is becoming very popular.

It is?

I-i mean it is?!

[MERIZoC]

"Hey, we're better than other places, so why improve? Let's stay the same forever."

Where I live, you won't find gender inequality anywhere. It's non-existent.

That is very, very unlikely.

[Fanosolia]

"Hey, we're better than other places, so why improve? Let's stay the same forever."

Where I live, you won't find gender inequality anywhere. It's non-existent. I am not implying that worse-off countries should not change.

what gives you reason to believe that? note, just because you don't see it or hear about it, doesn't mean it's not there. I've learn that enough times though this site.

[Kvatchdom]

Where I live, you won't find gender inequality anywhere. It's non-existent.

That is very, very unlikely.

There is absolutely no wage gap, rape is dealt with accordingly, domestic violence is dealt with accordingly, more than half of our parliament are women, etc. There's still the problem of divorce where men are usually discriminated against, but that will be quite hard to change.

[MERIZoC]

That is very, very unlikely.

There is absolutely no wage gap, rape is dealt with accordingly, domestic violence is dealt with accordingly, more than half of our parliament are women, etc. There's still the problem of divorce where men are usually discriminated against, but that will be quite hard to change.

Just because it isn't obviously institutionalized doesn't mean inequality doesn't exist.

[Kvatchdom]

There is absolutely no wage gap, rape is dealt with accordingly, domestic violence is dealt with accordingly, more than half of our parliament are women, etc. There's still the problem of divorce where men are usually discriminated against, but that will be quite hard to change.

Just because it isn't obviously institutionalized doesn't mean inequality doesn't exist.

If it does you'll have to dig deep into the roots of this nation to find it.

[Lalaki]

I don't identify with any label. But if being a feminist means supporting the equal rights of both genders, I have no problem associating myself with their causes (such as equal pay and single parenting issues).

[New Edom]

I don't identify with any label. But if being a feminist means supporting the equal rights of both genders, I have no problem associating myself with their causes (such as equal pay and single parenting issues).

Well, if that is all it is then certainly. But what if the advocates of this ideology consistently paint one gender as the cause of all problems in the world? What if for instance they only SAY they support equal rights, but in areas where their support is lukewarm or nonexistent they refuse to be held accountable?

[Kelinfort]

Property destruction is not the answer.

Note by the way, this is exactly what Slaves also did as a form of protest.

Jesus fucking Christ...

[MERIZoC]

Note by the way, this is exactly what Slaves also did as a form of protest.

Jesus fucking Christ...

Didn't you hear? Carrying a few boxes up a flight of stairs is pretty much the same as being forced to pick cotton for 16 hours a day under threat of death.

[Gauthier]

Jesus fucking Christ...

Didn't you hear? Carrying a few boxes up a flight of stairs is pretty much the same as being forced to pick cotton for 16 hours a day under threat of death.

And roving gangs of women snag any male they see and put him up on the auction block.

[New Edom]

One other thing I'd like to bring up: time and time again we hear in feminist discussion circles about how MEN perpetuate gender roles, how MEN insist that men act this way or that way. I have yet to hear any feminist other than bell hooks--with her views on this never discussed outside of these books insofar as I can see--about how WOMEN perpetuate gender roles.

For instance, romance novels, romantic movies. Mostly these forms of media propose the idea that women are very attracted to men with traditionally strong male qualities--decisiveness, courage, stoicism, readiness to commit violence, ambition, and a particular kind of physical attractiveness. It could be argued that the way it is common for women to talk about men in popular media reinforces the idea that there is a certain kind of man that women generally find attractive and enjoy the company of. Yet only men are blamed for this. Feminists act like this is forced on women and they don't really want it, and you will hear male and female feminists alike bemoaning this and saying that in effect it is because other boys will beat up the boy wearing a dress.

Could it possibly be that there is something in the way that men and women traditoinally have behaved that is enticing, that it is not just pulling the wool over people's eyes to their inherent rainbow nature but that in fact there is a masculine and feminine--and that there might just be more just and fair ways of dealing with them, that gender is not merely a construct?

[Lalaki]

I don't identify with any label. But if being a feminist means supporting the equal rights of both genders, I have no problem associating myself with their causes (such as equal pay and single parenting issues).

Well, if that is all it is then certainly. But what if the advocates of this ideology consistently paint one gender as the cause of all problems in the world? What if for instance they only SAY they support equal rights, but in areas where their support is lukewarm or nonexistent they refuse to be held accountable?

In those cases, I will distance myself from the movement.

It's really not complicated. Examine feminism issue-by-issue and see where they stand before taking a position.

[New Edom]

Didn't you hear? Carrying a few boxes up a flight of stairs is pretty much the same as being forced to pick cotton for 16 hours a day under threat of death.

And roving gangs of women snag any male they see and put him up on the auction block.

When I was a little boy, a female friend urged a male friend of hers to beat me up. This happened more than once. When I tried to talk to her about it she refused to explain herself.

Later, when I was living in a group home, I remember talking to the other kids, and we were talking about how to deal with violent women. This was not hypothetical; we were talking about how you would at some point encounter them. My mother had been one, for instance, my step mother another. We discussed how you had to be careful--you couldn't hit back right away or you'd be more likely to be walked off in cuffs or even attacked by other men defending the woman even if she started the fight.

This shouldn't have to be an either/or thing. Bringing up issues men have with women is not in my opinion meant to make women's struggles irrelevant. It's really too bad that men are facing the same struggle women did in the 70s to have their issues accepted from people who benefited from that earlier struggle.

[Kelinfort]

And roving gangs of women snag any male they see and put him up on the auction block.

When I was a little boy, a female friend urged a male friend of hers to beat me up. This happened more than once. When I tried to talk to her about it she refused to explain herself.

Later, when I was living in a group home, I remember talking to the other kids, and we were talking about how to deal with violent women. This was not hypothetical; we were talking about how you would at some point encounter them. My mother had been one, for instance, my step mother another. We discussed how you had to be careful--you couldn't hit back right away or you'd be more likely to be walked off in cuffs or even attacked by other men defending the woman even if she started the fight.

This shouldn't have to be an either/or thing. Bringing up issues men have with women is not in my opinion meant to make women's struggles irrelevant. It's really too bad that men are facing the same struggle women did in the 70s to have their issues accepted from people who benefited from that earlier struggle.

Calling for the destruction of property and likening yourself to slaves is immature, at least.

[Gauthier]

When I was a little boy, a female friend urged a male friend of hers to beat me up. This happened more than once. When I tried to talk to her about it she refused to explain herself.

Later, when I was living in a group home, I remember talking to the other kids, and we were talking about how to deal with violent women. This was not hypothetical; we were talking about how you would at some point encounter them. My mother had been one, for instance, my step mother another. We discussed how you had to be careful--you couldn't hit back right away or you'd be more likely to be walked off in cuffs or even attacked by other men defending the woman even if she started the fight.

This shouldn't have to be an either/or thing. Bringing up issues men have with women is not in my opinion meant to make women's struggles irrelevant. It's really too bad that men are facing the same struggle women did in the 70s to have their issues accepted from people who benefited from that earlier struggle.

Calling for the destruction of property and likening yourself to slaves is immature, at least.

Especially because it trivializes the plight of actual slavery in order to make an essentially petty gripe against women based on low self-esteem seem like a noble struggle.

[New Edom]

Well, if that is all it is then certainly. But what if the advocates of this ideology consistently paint one gender as the cause of all problems in the world? What if for instance they only SAY they support equal rights, but in areas where their support is lukewarm or nonexistent they refuse to be held accountable?

In those cases, I will distance myself from the movement.

It's really not complicated. Examine feminism issue-by-issue and see where they stand before taking a position.

Not that complicated, eh? Can you name any major issue that feminists want people to deal with that is not essentialy about women and girls being the victims of men, and never vice-versa?

[Lalaki]

This shouldn't have to be an either/or thing. Bringing up issues men have with women is not in my opinion meant to make women's struggles irrelevant. It's really too bad that men are facing the same struggle women did in the 70s to have their issues accepted from people who benefited from that earlier struggle.

I agree that the problems facing all people need to be dealt with. Gender not involved.

The problem is that men have never dealt with the same oppression that women did throughout history. It was less than a century ago that they were given the right to vote in all states, for example.

[New Edom]

When I was a little boy, a female friend urged a male friend of hers to beat me up. This happened more than once. When I tried to talk to her about it she refused to explain herself.

Later, when I was living in a group home, I remember talking to the other kids, and we were talking about how to deal with violent women. This was not hypothetical; we were talking about how you would at some point encounter them. My mother had been one, for instance, my step mother another. We discussed how you had to be careful--you couldn't hit back right away or you'd be more likely to be walked off in cuffs or even attacked by other men defending the woman even if she started the fight.

This shouldn't have to be an either/or thing. Bringing up issues men have with women is not in my opinion meant to make women's struggles irrelevant. It's really too bad that men are facing the same struggle women did in the 70s to have their issues accepted from people who benefited from that earlier struggle.

Calling for the destruction of property and likening yourself to slaves is immature, at least.

Sorry are you addressing what I wrote? if so how?