Criticisms of Feminism

[Ostroeuropa]

Are you denying that males are disadvantaged and discriminated against in today's society?

Observing the oppression of women does not inherently deny the oppression of men in other regards.

The context of his post would seem to imply otherwise.
I would agree that both sexes have their issues which need to be addressed. I just deny that a gynocentric perspective can get it done.

As an example of how ludicrous feminism seems to me, here is an MRM parody of feminism. (Note, this is not an MRM position.)

"We need to support maternity leave so that women can stop mooching off men and be able to hold down their own jobs."

This is the kind of tone and rationale you constantly hear from feminists when discussing mens issues.
It's always in "How will this benefit women and how is it mens fault" terms.

I think feminism is too gynocentric to properly deliver on gender equality. The MRM provides an androcentrist counterbalance.
At some point the movement should either merge, or share power.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Looks like you just removed a huge chunk of your supporting base then.

Okay, fine. Source that most self-proclaimed feminists hate men. Give me a fucking source.

[Nierra]

In fact isn't it also a double standard that a feminist is considered an advocate for both sexes, while a masculinist is a person seeking the dominance of males?

It's funny how people say this shit. It makes it patently obvious that you don't realize females are still disadvantaged and discriminated against in today's society, which means you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Makes it easier for the rest of us.

Feminine - having qualities or appearance traditionally associated with women, especially delicacy and prettiness.

of or denoting a gender of nouns and adjectives, conventionally regarded as female.

the female sex or gender.

How gender inclusive. The "rest of you" being an incredibly small minority that wonders why western society wants nothing to do with them and very egalitarian actors and actresses in one of the most liberal cities in the world refuse to associate with.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

It's funny how people say this shit. It makes it patently obvious that you don't realize females are still disadvantaged and discriminated against in today's society, which means you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Makes it easier for the rest of us.

Feminine - having qualities or appearance traditionally associated with women, especially delicacy and prettiness.

of or denoting a gender of nouns and adjectives, conventionally regarded as female.

the female sex or gender.

How gender inclusive. The "rest of you" being an incredibly small minority that wonders why western society wants nothing to do with them and very egalitarian actors and actresses in one of the most liberal cities in the world refuse to associate with.

Feminism = gender equality. Still isn't through your head, huh?

[Ostroeuropa]

Are you denying that males are disadvantaged and discriminated against in today's society?

Patriarchal society can work against them in certain, particular ways, like with emotional expression. But females are still effectively a lower class of citizen.

Really?
Then why are men most of the victims of violence, why do they have less legal rights (in the west), why is the court stacked against them, why is the education system against them, and why do people prefer women?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E2%80%9CW ... %9D_effect

Merely asserting your ideology as though it is a fact does not make it so.
This part right here by the way??
This is the part where feminism CEASES TO BE purely about believing in equality of the sexes, and instead becomes a very particular interpretation of gender issues.
It is that interpretation which is fundamentally sexist.

Are you going to now say that MRA's are feminists? They seem to think men are more disadvantaged than women. (So do I, as it happens.)
But they believe in gender equality.
So are they feminists or aren't they?

[Not a Bang but a Whimper]

The mere existence of a binary opposition between genders inevitably leads to one of the binary terms being privileged. The structures and institutions which maintain this binary opposition are known as the patriarchy.

It's not a one-way thing. You obtain one set of privilege for being male and a different set of privileges (such as actually having discrimination against you taken seriously, in the first instance) for being female.

The privileging of the signifiers for masculinity is demonstrable, however. Who, precisely, is oppressed or privileged as a result of this is not at question. Merely we recognize that, through the privileging of masculinity, the patriarchy as an institution exists.

[Tekania]

The broader definition of feminism can indeed include misandrous positions.... You're not really arguing by THE definition, you're arguing by A definition while ignoring the larger meaning of the term to engage in no-true-scottsman fallacy.

But feel free to keep lying to yourself and everyone else.

"A" definition that happens to be the only one accepted by the fucking dictionary.

But yeah, feel free to keep distorting facts and making shit up.

Feel free to keep ignoring truth, I would suggest actually consulting some dictionaries to see what falls under the umbrella of "feminism". Included under the definitions is the broader one of "organized activity on behalf of women's rights" which is not depended on it as an equality movement in the definition. Whether you like it or not this exits... you can deal with it.

[Nierra]

Looks like you just removed a huge chunk of your supporting base then.

Okay, fine. Source that most self-proclaimed feminists hate men. Give me a fucking source.

Who would openly admit on a poll that they hate men?

Who would openly admit on a poll that they hate women?

That's like releasing a poll tomorrow that has two options

option 1: I hate minorities

option 2: I'm ok with minorities

Then option 2 obviously receives the majority of votes so we go ahead and say race isn't an issue guys!

Total nonsense.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Okay, fine. Source that most self-proclaimed feminists hate men. Give me a fucking source.

Who would openly admit on a poll that they hate men?

Who would openly admit on a poll that they hate women?

That's like releasing a poll tomorrow that has two options

option 1: I hate minorities

option 2: I'm ok with minorities

Then option 2 obviously receives the majority of votes so we go ahead and say race isn't an issue guys!

Total nonsense.

So you admit you have no proof. Gotcha.

I'm out.

[Ostroeuropa]

It's not a one-way thing. You obtain one set of privilege for being male and a different set of privileges (such as actually having discrimination against you taken seriously, in the first instance) for being female.

The privileging of the signifiers for masculinity is demonstrable, however. Who, precisely, is oppressed or privileged as a result of this is not at question. Merely we recognize that, through the privileging of masculinity, the patriarchy as an institution exists.

Some portions of the MRM would argue that masculinity is largely forced on men by male collaborators and womens social power.

You'll notice that masculinity largely revolves around how one is of service to women. The "Privileging" of masculinity, in effect, amounts to society rewarding behaviors that serve women.
That would seem to make women the privileged class.

[Nierra]

Feminine - having qualities or appearance traditionally associated with women, especially delicacy and prettiness.

of or denoting a gender of nouns and adjectives, conventionally regarded as female.

the female sex or gender.

How gender inclusive. The "rest of you" being an incredibly small minority that wonders why western society wants nothing to do with them and very egalitarian actors and actresses in one of the most liberal cities in the world refuse to associate with.

Feminism = gender equality. Still isn't through your head, huh?

At this point you might as well just be saying

"nope! You're wrong!"

It would have the same effect, that is a non-existent argument.

[Atlanticatia]

Feminism = gender equality in all ways. End of story.

Opposing feminism means you believe men and women should not have equal status - and that, imo, is not a valid opinion.

[Jormengand]

It's not a one-way thing. You obtain one set of privilege for being male and a different set of privileges (such as actually having discrimination against you taken seriously, in the first instance) for being female.

The privileging of the signifiers for masculinity is demonstrable, however. Who, precisely, is oppressed or privileged as a result of this is not at question. Merely we recognize that, through the privileging of masculinity, the patriarchy as an institution exists.

Then so must matriarchy through the privilege of women in other instances, surely? And I should think that if there is both patriarchy and matriarchy then that neither can be used in any meaningful manner.

[Nierra]

Who would openly admit on a poll that they hate men?

Who would openly admit on a poll that they hate women?

That's like releasing a poll tomorrow that has two options

option 1: I hate minorities

option 2: I'm ok with minorities

Then option 2 obviously receives the majority of votes so we go ahead and say race isn't an issue guys!

Total nonsense.

So you admit you have no proof. Gotcha.

I'm out.

[Ostroeuropa]

Feminism = gender equality in all ways. End of story.

Opposing feminism means you believe men and women should not have equal status - and that, imo, is not a valid opinion.

If you believe men are more oppressed than women, and that women play a large role in the oppression of men, but believe in gender equality for both genders, are you a feminist?

[Chessmistress]

No way, I'm just going off on the fact that a very large amount of feminists are misandrist.

Feminism is the opposite of both misogyny and misandry.

A movement isn't defined by Merriam Webster, it's defined by the people who move it.

That's true. Radical Feminist thoughts seems to be prevalent both in academia in USA and in the new laws in Europe. I'm very proud about it.

Women are already equal as far as society can adequately address through its laws and legal systems.

Equality under the law isn't the same as Substantive Equality.

Depending the cultural question however, I can tell you that men are shunned extremely heavily while expressing sexist opinions

Not enough, I think.

Men in society are encouraged to be chivalrous, open-minded, and accepting rather than snotty or brutish.

That's enforced on men by the patriarchy and gender roles, it's totally unrelated with Feminism.

They expect men to cheer-lead for them, but they don't want an open forum because of course us being men cannot possibly understand women so we have 0 say.

That's not exact. There are males that cannot understand their privilege and the oppression suffered by women, so it's much more complicated.
And, again, as pointed out even by others here, more and more true equality will be approached, more and more males will suffer, due they're losing their privileges - that's not a problem because the (few) issues pertaining males will be almost automatically fixed with the ultimate fall of patriarchy.
But NOT before the historically oppressed gender, WOMEN, will have full rights.
That's why I think that Feminists can NOT allow males to hold positions of power within the movement, because more and more males will suffer losing their privileges more and more there will be second thoughts among "feminist" males (Paul Elam case is pretty telling, even if his reason are absolutely unworthy, I think) and that's also why we, Radical Feminists, don't want that males call themselves "feminists" but just only "allies".

[Natapoc]

Patriarchal society can work against them in certain, particular ways, like with emotional expression. But females are still effectively a lower class of citizen.

Really?
Then why are men most of the victims of violence, why do they have less legal rights (in the west), why is the court stacked against them, why is the education system against them, and why do people prefer women?

Because the rest of us don't live in the fictional world where all those things are true. The rest of us live in a world where women are most of the victims of violence, where women have less legal rights.

Also... Why do people prefer women? Gender roles!

[Ostroeuropa]

Really?
Then why are men most of the victims of violence, why do they have less legal rights (in the west), why is the court stacked against them, why is the education system against them, and why do people prefer women?

Because the rest of us don't live in the fictional world where all those things are true. The rest of us live in a world where women are most of the victims of violence, where women have less legal rights.

Also... Why do people prefer women? Gender roles!

Um.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking ... -date.html

Men are the OVERWHELMING victims of violence.
Sorry Natapoc.

Name one legal right in the west that men have which women lack.
I'll be happy to show you some that men lack.

(By the way, hilarious. You say i live in a fantasy land then get the violence thing wrong. Hoo boy. Self-awareness once again is not in the feminists arsenal.)

[Not a Bang but a Whimper]

The privileging of the signifiers for masculinity is demonstrable, however. Who, precisely, is oppressed or privileged as a result of this is not at question. Merely we recognize that, through the privileging of masculinity, the patriarchy as an institution exists.

Some portions of the MRM would argue that masculinity is largely forced on men by male collaborators and womens social power.

You'll notice that masculinity largely revolves around how one is of service to women. The "Privileging" of masculinity, in effect, amounts to society rewarding behaviors that serve women.
That would seem to make women the privileged class.

Sexists will gleefully interpret masculinity as serving women. It only takes a basic understanding of enlightenment ideals to note, however, that independence and equality are valued more than receiving arbitrary services. I would far rather be significantly safer from rape than have a door held open for me.

[Natapoc]

Feminism = gender equality in all ways. End of story.

Opposing feminism means you believe men and women should not have equal status - and that, imo, is not a valid opinion.

Exactly. Does anyone else notice that the only people who are defining feminism as anything other than equality are people who are opposed to feminism?

If you wanted to know what evolution was, would you ask a creationist? Or would you ask someone who works in the field of evolutionary science?

[Atlanticatia]

Feminism = gender equality in all ways. End of story.

Opposing feminism means you believe men and women should not have equal status - and that, imo, is not a valid opinion.

If you believe men are more oppressed than women, and that women play a large role in the oppression of men, but believe in gender equality for both genders, are you a feminist?

That's a statistically and factually wrong 'opinion' - so it'd be like believing the earth is flat - but yes, feminism means you support gender equality.

[Ostroeuropa]

Some portions of the MRM would argue that masculinity is largely forced on men by male collaborators and womens social power.

You'll notice that masculinity largely revolves around how one is of service to women. The "Privileging" of masculinity, in effect, amounts to society rewarding behaviors that serve women.
That would seem to make women the privileged class.

Sexists will gleefully interpret masculinity as serving women. It only takes a basic understanding of enlightenment ideals to note, however, that independence and equality are valued more than receiving arbitrary services. I would far rather be significantly safer from rape than have a door held open for me.

Rape victim stats are equal across genders. So that's a nonsense. Got anything else?
As for being "Valued", sure.

Those poor slave holders. Oppressed by their slaves. If only they were independent of relying on them.

I'll also note that, these days, women can be independent and have legal equality, but masculinity still serves women.
This is why there is a problem. Men need a rights movement.

[Ostroeuropa]

If you believe men are more oppressed than women, and that women play a large role in the oppression of men, but believe in gender equality for both genders, are you a feminist?

That's a statistically and factually wrong 'opinion' - so it'd be like believing the earth is flat - but yes, feminism means you support gender equality.

What statistics, what facts. Go ahead.
Men are the majority of the victims of violence.
Most prisoners are men.
Most suicides are men.
Most homeless people are men.
Men are a minority of university attendees.
etc

But i'm happy to see you think the Mens rights movement is feminist.
Where did you get that definition, by the way?

[Chessmistress]

Because the rest of us don't live in the fictional world where all those things are true. The rest of us live in a world where women are most of the victims of violence, where women have less legal rights.

Also... Why do people prefer women? Gender roles!

Um.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking ... -date.html

Men are the OVERWHELMING victims of violence.
Sorry Natapoc.

Name one legal right in the west that men have which women lack.
I'll be happy to show you some that men lack.

(By the way, hilarious. You say i live in a fantasy land then get the violence thing wrong. Hoo boy. Self-awareness once again is not in the feminists arsenal.)

Men are overwhelming victims of violence by other men.
Women are overwhelming victims of violence by men.

And, please show me what are these rights that men - the dominant class - lack, it sounds absurd to me.

[Ostroeuropa]

Um.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking ... -date.html

Men are the OVERWHELMING victims of violence.
Sorry Natapoc.

Name one legal right in the west that men have which women lack.
I'll be happy to show you some that men lack.

(By the way, hilarious. You say i live in a fantasy land then get the violence thing wrong. Hoo boy. Self-awareness once again is not in the feminists arsenal.)

Men are overwhelming victims of violence by other men.
Women are overwhelming victims of violence by men.

And, please show me what are these rights that men - the dominant class - lack, it sounds absurd to me.

I don't see what the perpetrator has to do with it.
You sound like a white nationalist.

"Black people steal from black people. Black people also steal from white people more than whites steal from blacks. Therefore, whites are oppressed."

As for what rights they lack, there is selective service. So bodily autonomy.
Lack of family planning and self-determination.
Their rights are also violated when it comes to protecting them from crimes committed against them by women.
In some cases, for a man to excercise primary parental duties requires the mothers signature. (Placing the power entirely in her hands. If she wants him to, he can. If she doesn't, he cant.)

Circumcision too. Men have their bodily autonomy violated there.
They are also placed into debtors prisons on occasion.
There are a number of examples. Got any for women?