Criticisms of Feminism

[Grave_n_idle]

The vast majority of MRAs are ex-feminist in my experience.

Which is odd, because that's true of literally no 'MRA' I've ever met.

Maybe this is why anecdotes make such poor sources?

[Ostroeuropa]

Worth noting that in spite of feminist insistence that mens problems stem from the patriarchy, mens suicide rates are increasing, their education standards are falling etc, despite feminist victories for women.
Surely we'd see mens problems lessening if their ideology had any basis in reality...

That doesn't even begin to make sense.

If the paradigm of an oppressive patriarchy that has always favoured men at the expense of oppressing women is 'true' - we'd expect men's problems to get worse, not better. Because the oppressed class is no longer as easy a target, and so the men are less favoured.

By trying to link increasing male suicidal behaviour with the feminist movement (rather than allowing it might not be related, or might correlate with, rather than being caused by, feminism) - you're actually providing evidence that the feminist 'patriarchy' target is real.

I'm pointing out that feminists claims that their ideology will fix mens gender problems has no basis in reality.
Mens suicide rates are higher, their incarceration rates are higher and longer for the same crimes, etc.

Feminists claim that these are aspects of the patriarchy and feminism is fighting to fix them.
If this is the case, then why is it that despite feminism gaining power in instituions and it's ideology effecting law, mens gender issues are getting worse.

If you think women are disadvantaged relative to men despite all the violence and poverty men suffer, that's pretty strange.
Women are """Disadvantaged""" by having more choices and choosing ones they later regret.
Or rather, ones feminists point to and blame men for.

[Ostroeuropa]

The vast majority of MRAs are ex-feminist in my experience.

Which is odd, because that's true of literally no 'MRA' I've ever met.

Maybe this is why anecdotes make such poor sources?

How many have you met?
Did you ask all of them if they were ex-feminists?

EDIT:
http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comm ... llusioned/

Here.

[Nierra]

The vast majority of MRAs are ex-feminist in my experience.

Which is odd, because that's true of literally no 'MRA' I've ever met.

Maybe this is why anecdotes make such poor sources?

Misogynists are not MRAs, and very little people are legitimate MRAs, most people see it as a joke making fun of feminists.

[Grave_n_idle]

Which is odd, because that's true of literally no 'MRA' I've ever met.

Maybe this is why anecdotes make such poor sources?

How many have you met?
Did you ask all of them if they were ex-feminists?

Two. I've known one of them quite a long time (decades) and the other one since we were both kids (so... nearer a half-century than a decade).

Neither of them were feminists. To be honest, they're both sexist assholes who basically hate women.

So, of all the MRAs I've personally been acquainted with... 100% were not ex-feminists

[Grave_n_idle]

EDIT:
http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comm ... llusioned/

Here.

Are you kidding me? This is your 'experience'?

[Ostroeuropa]

How many have you met?
Did you ask all of them if they were ex-feminists?

Two. I've known one of them quite a long time (decades) and the other one since we were both kids (so... nearer a half-century than a decade).

Neither of them were feminists. To be honest, they're both sexist assholes who basically hate women.

So, of all the MRAs I've personally been acquainted with... 100% were not ex-feminists

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comm ... llusioned/

I'm an ex feminist. I'm also an MRA.
In that thread you will find the vast majority identify as ex feminist.
I guess you're right, anecdotes are fairly terrible.
How about not telling people what their movements are about when you've only met two members?
Clearly, i'll have met more of them than you do. You should probably have taken my word for it, or even better, gone to actually check.

[Ostroeuropa]

EDIT:
http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comm ... llusioned/

Here.

Are you kidding me? This is your 'experience'?

What, going to the mens rights reddit and asking
"How many of you are ex-feminists"
And seeing that, gosh, most of the answers say they are ex-feminist?

No, that's part of my experience.
The other part is knowing a lot of MRAs.
The ones who never identified with feminism tend to be humanists and gender egalitarians who have recognized that feminism needs to be fought, or tradcons.

Tradcons are not popular in the MRA. You will see them routinely being told they do not belong there.

[Grave_n_idle]

Two. I've known one of them quite a long time (decades) and the other one since we were both kids (so... nearer a half-century than a decade).

Neither of them were feminists. To be honest, they're both sexist assholes who basically hate women.

So, of all the MRAs I've personally been acquainted with... 100% were not ex-feminists

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comm ... llusioned/

I'm an ex feminist. I'm also an MRA.
In that thread you will find the vast majority identify as ex feminist.
I guess you're right, anecdotes are fairly terrible.
How about not telling people what their movements are about when you've only met two members?
Clearly, i'll have met more of them than you do. You should probably have taken my word for it, or even better, gone to actually check.

I don't even believe that YOU were a feminist - sorry, first rule of the internet. I also don't believe that you're a soldier, a lawyer, 6' 4" or a Brad Pitt lookalike, so don't feel like the feminist thing is an attack.

I doubt you've met any of the people on that Reddit thread - ironclad source though it would otherwise have been.

[Ostroeuropa]

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comm ... llusioned/

I'm an ex feminist. I'm also an MRA.
In that thread you will find the vast majority identify as ex feminist.
I guess you're right, anecdotes are fairly terrible.
How about not telling people what their movements are about when you've only met two members?
Clearly, i'll have met more of them than you do. You should probably have taken my word for it, or even better, gone to actually check.

I don't even believe that YOU were a feminist - sorry, first rule of the internet. I also don't believe that you're a soldier, a lawyer, 6' 4" or a Brad Pitt lookalike, so don't feel like the feminist thing is an attack.

I doubt you've met any of the people on that Reddit thread - ironclad source though it would otherwise have been.

That's fine. You don't have to believe me. I'm just pointing out that most MRA's will identify as ex-feminists.
You'll also see them talk about their experience in losing faith in feminism, and sharing videos and posts from people who say things like
"Why i'm no longer a feminist."

So how do you expect me to prove that the MRA's are mostly ex-feminists other than by asking them?
I think you've got an absurd standard of evidence on this issue, and I think i've proven to a reasonable degree that most MRA's are ex-feminists with that thread. I'm betting it's because you don't want to acknowledge that fact for ideological reasons.

[Gauthier]

Does anyone seriously believe Paul Elam might have been a feminist?

My God, it's like people won't stop complaining about feminism until the world looks exactly like the Gor novels.

[Nierra]

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comm ... llusioned/

I'm an ex feminist. I'm also an MRA.
In that thread you will find the vast majority identify as ex feminist.
I guess you're right, anecdotes are fairly terrible.
How about not telling people what their movements are about when you've only met two members?
Clearly, i'll have met more of them than you do. You should probably have taken my word for it, or even better, gone to actually check.

I don't even believe that YOU were a feminist - sorry, first rule of the internet. I also don't believe that you're a soldier, a lawyer, 6' 4" or a Brad Pitt lookalike, so don't feel like the feminist thing is an attack.

I doubt you've met any of the people on that Reddit thread - ironclad source though it would otherwise have been.

That's doesn't mean the feminist movement lacks an abundance of misandry, nor does it mean all male MRAs are sexist pigs who hate women.

You're that "2%" that put people off btw.

Why quotes? I believe it's much more than that

Learn from the LGBTQ movement femmies

[Tekania]

Why do feminists and the feminist media feel the need to constantly lie about the MRM?

The mad-max boycott is basically non-existant.
Go to the mens rights reddit and you'll find them confirming as such.
Another case of fact check everything feminists say.

I'd love a feminist to be able to explain this behavior to me. Why do they feel the need to constantly lie about the MRM?
I engage in hyperbole on occasion. But all my accusations of the nefarious shit feminists get up to is true, same for the MRM.
I might call feminists jackbooted thugs akin to nazis for their work on the duluth model and call the hundreds of thousands of male victims they've systematically fucked over a feminist holocaust, and that language might be inflammatory, but it remains fundamentally true that they HAVE fucked over hundreds of thousands of male domestic abuse victims, some of whom are probably dead from their actions.
Sometimes, my emotions get hold of me and I engage in hyperbole. I'll admit it.

But I don't feel the need to declare that they caused the hiroshima meltdown, because there's plenty of actual shit to call them out on.

So why is it feminists feel the need to constantly lie about the MRM?
I submit it's because they have nothing else but lies and defamation. They know their arguments are inferior.

It was an MRM call for a boycot whether or not some MRM's want to say so or not. The person calling for the boycott is vocal of MRM positions and posits them as such and is therefore associated with them. Same standard applied to Radical Feminists.... Frankly I'm no more a fan of MRM movement than Feminism.... two sides of the same no-true-scottsman baiting coin engaging in the same sort of hyperbole and hypocritical bullshit while effecting holding themselves to a separate standard than their opposition. I frankly have no sympathy for the lot of it any longer.

I cannot stomach the cognitive dissonance which festers by associating with either.

[Jormengand]

It was an MRM call for a boycot whether or not some MRM's want to say so or not. The person calling for the boycott is vocal of MRM positions and posits them as such and is therefore associated with them.

The woman who advocated castrating all men called herself a feminist, but is not representative of feminists at large. The same applies here.

[Ostroeuropa]

Why do feminists and the feminist media feel the need to constantly lie about the MRM?

The mad-max boycott is basically non-existant.
Go to the mens rights reddit and you'll find them confirming as such.
Another case of fact check everything feminists say.

I'd love a feminist to be able to explain this behavior to me. Why do they feel the need to constantly lie about the MRM?
I engage in hyperbole on occasion. But all my accusations of the nefarious shit feminists get up to is true, same for the MRM.
I might call feminists jackbooted thugs akin to nazis for their work on the duluth model and call the hundreds of thousands of male victims they've systematically fucked over a feminist holocaust, and that language might be inflammatory, but it remains fundamentally true that they HAVE fucked over hundreds of thousands of male domestic abuse victims, some of whom are probably dead from their actions.
Sometimes, my emotions get hold of me and I engage in hyperbole. I'll admit it.

But I don't feel the need to declare that they caused the hiroshima meltdown, because there's plenty of actual shit to call them out on.

So why is it feminists feel the need to constantly lie about the MRM?
I submit it's because they have nothing else but lies and defamation. They know their arguments are inferior.

It was an MRM call for a boycot whether or not some MRM's want to say so or not. The person calling for the boycott is vocal of MRM positions and posits them as such and is therefore associated with them. Same standard applied to Radical Feminists.... Frankly I'm no more a fan of MRM movement than Feminism.... two sides of the same no-true-scottsman baiting coin engaging in the same sort of hyperbole and hypocritical bullshit while effecting holding themselves to a separate standard than their opposition. I frankly have no sympathy for the lot of it any longer.

I cannot stomach the cognitive dissonance which festers by associating with either.

Who called for the boycott? Where was it called for?

Oh, it was aaron clarey. On the return of kings thing.

This return of kings?

http://www.returnofkings.com/7877/the-m ... ce-for-men

"The mens rights movement is no place for men."

Take the military, for example. When the American military announced that it would start putting women in combat, Men’s Rights Advocates (MRAs) rejoiced. Letting women fight is stupid and dangerous for any number of reasons;

Yeh, bullshit mate.
It wasn't an MRA who called for the boycott, stop spreading feminist lies.

[Ostroeuropa]

It was an MRM call for a boycot whether or not some MRM's want to say so or not. The person calling for the boycott is vocal of MRM positions and posits them as such and is therefore associated with them.

The woman who advocated castrating all men called herself a feminist, but is not representative of feminists at large. The same applies here.

He's from return of kings.
Something feminists keep INSISTING is the Mens rights movement, but that doesn't actually make it so, especially when ROK has explicitly said they are not MRA's and take positions antithetical to the MRA.
You'll notice by the way, that ROK HATES the MRM because it advocates gender equality.
It is not a comparable example.

[Natapoc]

I don't even believe that YOU were a feminist - sorry, first rule of the internet. I also don't believe that you're a soldier, a lawyer, 6' 4" or a Brad Pitt lookalike, so don't feel like the feminist thing is an attack.

I doubt you've met any of the people on that Reddit thread - ironclad source though it would otherwise have been.

That's doesn't mean the feminist movement lacks an abundance of misandry, nor does it mean all male MRAs are sexist pigs who hate women.

You're that "2%" that put people off btw.

Why quotes? I believe it's much more than that

Learn from the LGBTQ movement femmies

The "misandry" that a few feminists use is mostly intended as a joke. You can only be accused of being a ball crushing feminazi so many times before it just becomes humorous.

There is no real misandry in feminism.

[Nierra]

That's doesn't mean the feminist movement lacks an abundance of misandry, nor does it mean all male MRAs are sexist pigs who hate women.

You're that "2%" that put people off btw.

Why quotes? I believe it's much more than that

Learn from the LGBTQ movement femmies

The "misandry" that a few feminists use is mostly intended as a joke. You can only be accused of being a ball crushing feminazi so many times before it just becomes humorous.

There is no real misandry in feminism.

.........Is this a joke?

[Jormengand]

There is no real misandry in feminism.

Not in feminism, no, because it would be antithetical to what feminism actually means. Outside of feminism? Yes. Yes there is.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

.........Is this a joke?

No. Feminism is inherently opposed to misandry. Or do you not know how to look up a definition?

[Ostroeuropa]

There is no real misandry in feminism.

Not in feminism, no, because it would be antithetical to what feminism actually means. Outside of feminism? Yes. Yes there is.

I disagree. I think feminism is in itself a misandrist position unless you counterbalance a gynocentric lens with an androcentric one, at which point core tenets of many feminisms such as patriarchy, or the notion that women are oppressed relative to men, collapse.

[Ostroeuropa]

.........Is this a joke?

No. Feminism is inherently opposed to misandry. Or do you not know how to look up a definition?

I've looked up the definition.
Have you?

the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.

Nowhere does this deal with misandry or mens rights.
It also doesn't require someone believe in equality.

Only that they use equality as an excuse or rationale to advance womens rights.
Sounds pretty much dead on target.
It also doesn't exclude them from being a misandrist, which they very often are.

The nature of the advocacy they employ is frequently misandrist, as are the proposed solutions, their proposed causes of the issues, and their issue focus.

[Jormengand]

Not in feminism, no, because it would be antithetical to what feminism actually means. Outside of feminism? Yes. Yes there is.

I disagree. I think feminism is in itself a misandrist position unless you counterbalance a gynocentric lens with an androcentric one, at which point core tenets of many feminisms such as patriarchy, or the notion that women are oppressed relative to men, collapse.

I'm assuming that we're using the original definition of feminism, but thanks I guess.

[Ostroeuropa]

I disagree. I think feminism is in itself a misandrist position unless you counterbalance a gynocentric lens with an androcentric one, at which point core tenets of many feminisms such as patriarchy, or the notion that women are oppressed relative to men, collapse.

I'm assuming that we're using the original definition of feminism, but thanks I guess.

How would you define feminism and on what basis do you claim it is the original definition, further, i'd like you to explain whether this forthcoming definition would include Mens Rights Activists under its umbrella.

[Natapoc]

.........Is this a joke?

No. Feminism is inherently opposed to misandry. Or do you not know how to look up a definition?

Exactly. Misandry is as fundamentally incompatible with feminism as misogyny is. To claim to be a feminist supporter of misandry is to claim to be a contradiction.

A proof by definition is the strongest form of proof in logic.