Criticisms of Feminism

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

"Most women can't make the cut"
Huh.
Wow.

Yes, most women can't make the cut. Societal pressure pushes them into backing out, and tells them they should work with people rather than numbers. Expectations for them to make it in STEM fields are low, and they are encouraged to the classic "women should be secretaries, teachers and waitresses." No where did I claim that inability stemmed from biology, it stems from current norms in society. Which again, I have said multiple times, need to be changed.

Except that many women, when they put their middle finger up to gender roles, can make the cut, as easily as men, so your "women can't make the cut" is bullshit and only serving to discourage women from attempting the join the STEM fields. So as much as you say you believe we need change, the words you use are doing the exact opposite of what you want.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

I know every individual is unique, but as I have said before, generalizations work on the scale of billions. Also yes, people do have socially significant instincts, our instinctual desire to be social is an instinct itself, who'd have thought. Alright, now I'm off to sleep.

People can consciously avoid it. People can follow moral and ethical systems that tell them about the wrongness of their instincts. People can avoid them because of the harm it would cause on others, out of empathy. People can even do it for the sake of conformity, in order to not commit social suicide, because they prioritized the example instinct you gave.

So, terrible attempt of dismissing the point.

[Shevardino]

How have I embarrassed myself?

You informed us that women are, essentially, intellectually inferior because some of them drop out of STEM fields.

If you can't tell why you should be embarrassed, there's nothing I can do for you.

All you did was provide an anecdote to say I'm wrong. Majority of people in STEM fields are men. It's true, and it's what I said. Sure I provided an anecdote, but it DOES correspond to the average trend across the nation.

There are many STEM fields in which men are outnumbered by women - sometimes overwhelmingly. And you have yet to prove that this is a "trend," since the only evidence you've presented is your anecdote, which is absolutely worthless as evidence. A fact I would have hoped you'd pick up on, when you figured out why you didn't accept my own anecdote as evidence.

Additionally, if you care about money, STEM fields should be the last place you look at. If you want women to be breadwinners, leaving STEM is the best choice they could make, particularly in America. (Or leaving SEM, at any rate; god knows why the T is in there.)

Again, please show me where I said women are less intelligent. You're inferring a wholly different narrative than I'm implying and presenting. How many times do I have to say women are being funneled into lower paying fields by societal norms and social pressure, and that the common trend wherein males dominate higher fields is because there is more pressure and expecatation on them to do so? And as far as the trend, please check the source I linked, there is a full report in PDF form. Female enrollment into STEM majors has only increased marginally. The trend is that they don't make it. The cause, as I must remind you, is of social nature, and not biological.

[Shevardino]

Yes, most women can't make the cut. Societal pressure pushes them into backing out, and tells them they should work with people rather than numbers. Expectations for them to make it in STEM fields are low, and they are encouraged to the classic "women should be secretaries, teachers and waitresses." No where did I claim that inability stemmed from biology, it stems from current norms in society. Which again, I have said multiple times, need to be changed.

Except that many women, when they put their middle finger up to gender roles, can make the cut, as easily as men, so your "women can't make the cut" is bullshit and only serving to discourage women from attempting the join the STEM fields. So as much as you say you believe we need change, the words you use are doing the exact opposite of what you want.

YES when women put their middle finger up to gender roles they can make the cut, as easily as men. This is what I keep saying. Over, and over, and over again. And you seem to have omitted the most on "most women can't make the cut." So long as most women believe they cannot make the cut, they may become disheartened and give up. I have said multiple times that this is the cause and what neds to be changed. I keep saying that this is due to the current status quo which needs to change. As the far as the words I'm using doing the exact opposite, that seems to stem from your desire to infer a different message than I'm putting forward.

[The Confederacy of Nationalism]

I know every individual is unique, but as I have said before, generalizations work on the scale of billions. Also yes, people do have socially significant instincts, our instinctual desire to be social is an instinct itself, who'd have thought. Alright, now I'm off to sleep.

People can consciously avoid it. People can follow moral and ethical systems that tell them about the wrongness of their instincts. People can avoid them because of the harm it would cause on others, out of empathy. People can even do it for the sake of conformity, in order to not commit social suicide, because they prioritized the example instinct you gave.

So, terrible attempt of dismissing the point.

Instinct certainly takes a backseat to consciousness, but that doesn't make it irrelevant. I'm sure someone with an addiction problem would love to hear you talk about how easy it is to consciously override instinct. People have an instinctual desire to reproduce, and it just so happens that a vast majority of people do reproduce. Even the 'sake of social conformity' bit you mentioned, the desire to conform is an instinct. The conscious mind isn't as infallible as you like to believe.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Please learn something about these issues before embarrassing yourself. And your anecdotes don't qualify as data, as my cohort in chemistry - primarily women - would be glad to remind you.

Female physics and math double major here to remind Shevardino that women throughout the course of their lives are discouraged from participating in hard sciences and excused from being held to high science-related knowledge levels because "aw it's okay, girls don't need to learn math and science."
Societal pressures are what keep women from doing well in science and math and from being interested in them. Men aren't fucking special or more intelligent.

Not counting the fact that STEM majors are pretty hard in and of itself for everyone.

There are certain courses which we say are "cutoff" classes or "keystone" for those who have universities which make things sound pretty. In my brother's degree, which was Chemistry at Texas Christian University, I saw the harshest cutoff: from over 1000 students only 6 including my younger brother graduated from Chemistry majors and only he and another person got accepted out of the whole University for his graduating class to be in a graduate program there.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Instinct certainly takes a backseat to consciousness, but that doesn't make it irrelevant. I'm sure someone with an addiction problem would love to hear you talk about how easy it is to consciously override instinct. People have an instinctual desire to reproduce, and it just so happens that a vast majority of people do reproduce. Even the 'sake of social conformity' bit you mentioned, the desire to conform is an instinct. The conscious mind isn't as infallible as you like to believe.

But what are the supposed instinctive gender differences between humans (I'd like for someone to cite which are them...) in comparison to the huge deal that is social immersion? And even then, men and women are still pretty similar in kind and varied.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Except that many women, when they put their middle finger up to gender roles, can make the cut, as easily as men, so your "women can't make the cut" is bullshit and only serving to discourage women from attempting the join the STEM fields. So as much as you say you believe we need change, the words you use are doing the exact opposite of what you want.

YES when women put their middle finger up to gender roles they can make the cut, as easily as men. This is what I keep saying. Over, and over, and over again. And you seem to have omitted the most on "most women can't make the cut." So long as most women believe they cannot make the cut, they may become disheartened and give up. I have said multiple times that this is the cause and what neds to be changed. I keep saying that this is due to the current status quo which needs to change. As the far as the words I'm using doing the exact opposite, that seems to stem from your desire to infer a different message than I'm putting forward.

The problem is not with them though.

It is within the field itself which looks down on everyone and makes it really hard to actually think that you can make the cut because to make the cut, it seems, you have to be a sanctimonious bastard.

[Shevardino]

Except that many women, when they put their middle finger up to gender roles, can make the cut, as easily as men, so your "women can't make the cut" is bullshit and only serving to discourage women from attempting the join the STEM fields. So as much as you say you believe we need change, the words you use are doing the exact opposite of what you want.

YES when women put their middle finger up to gender roles they can make the cut, as easily as men. This is what I keep saying. Over, and over, and over again. And you seem to have omitted the most on "most women can't make the cut." So long as most women believe they cannot make the cut, they may become disheartened and give up. I have said multiple times that this is the cause and what neds to be changed. I keep saying that this is due to the current status quo which needs to change. As the far as the words I'm using doing the exact opposite, that seems to stem from your desire to infer a different message than I'm putting forward.

To put it succinctly, and to avoid any further banter on my part, currently, most women DO NOT make the cut. I maintain that they do not, because they cannot. I maintain that they cannot because of current gender roles. Gender roles which you and I are both opposed to. Pick and fight over semantics and word play all you want, we're on the same side here, and agree on the same issue.

[Tubbsalot]

Again, please show me where I said women are less intelligent. You're inferring a wholly different narrative than I'm implying and presenting. How many times do I have to say women are being funneled into lower paying fields by societal norms and social pressure, and that the common trend wherein males dominate higher fields is because there is more pressure and expecatation on them to do so?

If you want high-paying fields, you're talking about finance and business, not engineering or tech, and certainly not science or maths.

That said, you're right that I misinterpreted you. But that's not surprising, when your post contains the phrase "women don't make the cut" and claims that women can't deal with STEM fields. Probably worth considering your wording more carefully.

And as far as the trend, please check the source I linked, there is a full report in PDF form. Female enrollment into STEM majors has only increased marginally. The trend is that they don't make it.

The report does not support these assertions. It makes no claims about trends or enrolment, aside from "[the increase in female enrolment] has been uneven across STEM fields." In addition, the report is not about STEM-educated workers, it's about the subset of STEM-educated workers who are self-employed, and furthermore the report notes that 82% of their population of interest are in tech/engineering roles, leaving science and maths as essentially statistical noise.

[Earl of Sandwich IV]

Feminism these days is a form of childish rebellion against family values. Usually it's not driven by an overarching sense of 'justice' or something like that, but by personal shortcomings. For example girls who have problems finding the right man will often be drawn into feminism and convince themselves that all men are evil.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Feminism these days is a form of childish rebellion against family values. Usually it's not driven by an overarching sense of 'justice' or something like that, but by personal shortcomings. For example girls who have problems finding the right man will often be drawn into feminism and convince themselves that all men are evil.

Wow, nice way to start a conversation.

Congratulations on an utterly useless post that contributed absolutely nothing to the discussion.

[Tubbsalot]

Feminism these days is a form of childish rebellion against family values. Usually it's not driven by an overarching sense of 'justice' or something like that, but by personal shortcomings. For example girls who have problems finding the right man will often be drawn into feminism and convince themselves that all men are evil.

Given that a lot of women have problems finding a decent partner, and given that women are overwhelmingly feminists, you are proposing that a large portion (at least 10%) of all women believe that all men are evil.

On what basis do you suggest that so many women are so profoundly mentally incapable? Given that we don't observe such severe mental incapacity in the general female population, how do you justify your belief in the face of its obvious falsity?

[Earl of Sandwich IV]

Feminism these days is a form of childish rebellion against family values. Usually it's not driven by an overarching sense of 'justice' or something like that, but by personal shortcomings. For example girls who have problems finding the right man will often be drawn into feminism and convince themselves that all men are evil.

Wow, nice way to start a conversation.

Congratulations on an utterly useless post that contributed absolutely nothing to the discussion.

I haven't read the discussion, just making a general observation about feminism.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Feminism these days is a form of childish rebellion against family values. Usually it's not driven by an overarching sense of 'justice' or something like that, but by personal shortcomings. For example girls who have problems finding the right man will often be drawn into feminism and convince themselves that all men are evil.

Given that a lot of women have problems finding a decent partner, and given that women are overwhelmingly feminists, you are proposing that a large portion (at least 10%) of all women believe that all men are evil.

On what basis do you suggest that so many women are so profoundly mentally incapable? Given that we don't observe such severe mental incapacity in the general female population, how do you justify your belief in the face of its obvious falsity?

Isn't it obvious?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Wow, nice way to start a conversation.

Congratulations on an utterly useless post that contributed absolutely nothing to the discussion.

I haven't read the discussion, just making a general observation about feminism.

And it is still utterly useless commentary that contributed absolutely nothing to the discussion.

Your opinion was worthless.

[Tubbsalot]

On what basis do you suggest that so many women are so profoundly mentally incapable? Given that we don't observe such severe mental incapacity in the general female population, how do you justify your belief in the face of its obvious falsity?

Isn't it obvious?

Well, yes. It seems pretty clear he is profoundly mentally incapable. But it'd be rude to make that assertion before he has a chance to clarify any misunderstandings we've had about his stupid, awful post for idiots.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Feminism these days is a form of childish rebellion against family values. Usually it's not driven by an overarching sense of 'justice' or something like that, but by personal shortcomings. For example girls who have problems finding the right man will often be drawn into feminism and convince themselves that all men are evil.

Sorry you have to overcompensate like this.

[Earl of Sandwich IV]

Feminism these days is a form of childish rebellion against family values. Usually it's not driven by an overarching sense of 'justice' or something like that, but by personal shortcomings. For example girls who have problems finding the right man will often be drawn into feminism and convince themselves that all men are evil.

Given that a lot of women have problems finding a decent partner, and given that women are overwhelmingly feminists, you are proposing that a large portion (at least 10%) of all women believe that all men are evil.

On what basis do you suggest that so many women are so profoundly mentally incapable? Given that we don't observe such severe mental incapacity in the general female population, how do you justify your belief in the face of its obvious falsity?

That was just an example. Feminism is a blame game. If a woman doesn't have the kind of success in life she wants to and falls short of her own expectations, feminism offers her an opportunity to blame 'the patriachy' instead of herself. People don't like blaming themselves.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Given that a lot of women have problems finding a decent partner, and given that women are overwhelmingly feminists, you are proposing that a large portion (at least 10%) of all women believe that all men are evil.

On what basis do you suggest that so many women are so profoundly mentally incapable? Given that we don't observe such severe mental incapacity in the general female population, how do you justify your belief in the face of its obvious falsity?

That was just an example. Feminism is a blame game. If a woman doesn't have the kind of success in life she wants to and falls short of her own expectations, feminism offers her an opportunity to blame 'the patriachy' instead of herself. People don't like blaming themselves.

Would you like to prove that, or just talk out of your ass because you're upset that you don't get to control women's lives?

[Tubbsalot]

That was just an example. Feminism is a blame game. If a woman doesn't have the kind of success in life she wants to and falls short of her own expectations, feminism offers her an opportunity to blame 'the patriachy' instead of herself. People don't like blaming themselves.

I mean, it was an act of supreme optimism to reply to you at all, but I suppose it's nice to be certain you're not missing out on anything.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Given that a lot of women have problems finding a decent partner, and given that women are overwhelmingly feminists, you are proposing that a large portion (at least 10%) of all women believe that all men are evil.

On what basis do you suggest that so many women are so profoundly mentally incapable? Given that we don't observe such severe mental incapacity in the general female population, how do you justify your belief in the face of its obvious falsity?

That was just an example. Feminism is a blame game. If a woman doesn't have the kind of success in life she wants to and falls short of her own expectations, feminism offers her an opportunity to blame 'the patriachy' instead of herself. People don't like blaming themselves.

You must be new in the concept called "posting useful commentary", aren't you?

[Earl of Sandwich IV]

I haven't read the discussion, just making a general observation about feminism.

And it is still utterly useless commentary that contributed absolutely nothing to the discussion.

Your opinion was worthless.

That's your opinionm, I think it offers a lot of insight.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

And it is still utterly useless commentary that contributed absolutely nothing to the discussion.

Your opinion was worthless.

That's your opinionm, I think it offers a lot of insight.

I mean, I can also say your opinion is severely myopic and misguided.

In fact, I think I will point out WHY your opinion is severely myopic and misguided.

Feminism isn't about cutting off your balls, which , to be honest, I don't know if the fact you think women give that much of a shit about men actually should make me sad or laugh.

[Forsher]

In general, OP, feminists make pretty much the same arguments as you. That is, rigid social conventions damage both men and women, and this is bad.

Social conventions such as gender roles, racial and ethnic status, etc, are all just another excuse for the people with a very high social status, to restrict access to their position and eliminate potential competition, thus increasing their offspring's chances of inheriting that position of power. The cause of all these issues is heredity. To prove my point, we're seeing a whole bunch of problems, like racism, slowly being eliminated, while other forms of discrimination, such as classism (discrimination against the poor), are taking their place.

This is, to my view, divergent from feminism's point. However, this is probably why feminism is accused of being a left-wing position. I know you wrote more on this (for reference, I disagree re: inheritance) and I also disagree that it is part of the thread's topic so I've cut it out.

What I propose, is that you stop looking at this issue from such a narrow angle. Its not just about women's rights, its about humanity as a whole. Why not try to point out the negative effects that discrimination against women, has on men? Instead of addressing just one of the symptoms, why not seek to promote a world in which everyone starts off with the same chances and has an equal amount of support, to succeed in life?

I agree completely with that first part. The problem I see with feminism is that it tries to approach a subset of equality from a female (and, indeed, historically it was often a straight, cis, white middle-class one as well) perspective. As a consequence it misses other inequalities. I don't think this makes it bad. I do think it means that feminism isn't good in the sense that it's all that.

However, I also disagree that you can approach everything. I don't think it is appropriate for, say, gender and economic inequalities to be lumped into one big bag that is dealt with by this big huge thing. I don't think that that is helpful. To my mind, you need some sort of specialisation to really get to grips with the particulars and that then allows people to put their heads together and, hopefully, work productively on those issues. We don't ask, for instance, scientists to know all parts of science with equal depth for a reason.

What I propose is that you learn what feminism actually is. Because your post was condescending and ignorant, given that feminists DO say that these gender roles harm men as well.

It is you that is looking at this with a narrow view.

Gender roles are necessary while sexual reproduction still exists, matey.

Why?

People are attracted, in my experience, to people as opposed to the role they embody.

What you do not realize is that the discrimination of women is equally damaging to the male gender.

Actually, vast numbers of feminists (probably the majority of us) argue precisely that.

I don't think so.

That doesn't change the fact that discrimination is often based upon what social group one is in, and it makes sense to target resources accordingly. While obviously you need to determine which problems you need to face first, broadly speaking you can identify the bigger problems as belonging pretty solely to one group.

The point is that the vast majority of feminists would agree that the discrimination of women, the negatives of gender roles etc. are damaging for men as well. It's just that they would not say that they're as equally damaging for men as they are for women.

What I propose is that you learn what feminism actually is. Because your post was condescending and ignorant, given that feminists DO say that these gender roles harm men as well.

It is you that is looking at this with a narrow view.

A lot of feminist actually are misandrist

But that issue is something best for feminist to finally take care of.

If you're misandrist you are not and cannot ever be a feminist. No ifs, no buts, it simply is the case that misandry and feminism and mutually exclusive.

At the same time, being a feminist doesn't mean you can't say things that misandrists might agree with and vice versa. It's just like how being a vegetarian doesn't mean you have to have to be a Hitler.

Do you see gender roles in all other mammals? Yes. Are there rich elites in all other mammals? Probably not.

The very thing which allowed humanity to become the dominant life form on this planet, is its ability to adapt, on both an individual level, as well as on the level of the entire community. The fact is, we've outgrown these social conventions a long time ago. There is no reason why a woman can't perform as well as a man, in any job. There is no reason why a man couldn't be as good at raising children, as a woman.

Someone said in an earlier post, that a major issue with feminism, is that women win most custody cases and men are more easily convicted of rape. The fact is, these issues are not caused by feminism, but by discrimination against women. Women win custody cases more easily, because the general convention is that women are better at raising children. Men are more easily convicted of rape, because women are considered weak and it is considered highly improbable that a woman could overpower and sexually abuse a man.

And conversely I am increasingly convincing myself that people offer women have teh babies as an explanation for why women get paid less* because there is an expectation that men aren't teh parents in quite the same way.

The funniest thing about anti-feminists screaming for men's rights is that literally every single one of their problems could be fixed by the very reasonable goals which feminism seeks to accomplish.

It's like, for instance, how John and Paul might both want to reduce unemployment in their country and Paul argues that the way to do this is by freeing up resource consents while viciously criticising John's support of state investment. Same goal, vicious disagreement, two people who would both argue that "Every single problem he complains about can be resolved by my ideas".

That's not quite fair because I'm pretty sure many people who you'd consider to be anti-feminists viciously disagree with each other. Ah, broad strokes...